ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[cottonweaver]

A knife doesn't leave a bullet that can be traced.

but can leave metallic residues which can be found using scanning electron microscopy ( especially in event of knife contacting bone)

 

[Past Mortem]

Interestingly so no they haven't.

I find their silence on that very interesting and I’m not sure what to make of it. I would think given the interest in the case LE would make a statement if it wasn’t related but they haven’t given the public much of anything really so who knows.

 

[drmrgrl]

If you listen to the interaction right in that area when the girls were at that pickup window, that can be heard on that video, via the microphone in the Grub Truck, Kaylee gestures with a finger at those two standing behind them and says something to them. It doesn't sound like a particularly friendly thing, IMO

IMO, this was M gesturing-k on her phone

 

[Hexe]

Thoughts: IMO
Too many people killed in dense neighborhood.
No sounds.

Who said there were no sounds? The survivors were asleep at the time of murders and, living in a student party house, they were used to tune out mamy weird or even potentially creepy sounds. Same for their neighbours. So it is probable there were some sounds, just nobody registered them, because it was an early Sunday morning after Saturday party night, in a college town, so there were sounds and noises everywhere.

Too many alibis.

Excuse me, what?

No one appears to be talking.

How can you possibly know that? The LE is not exactly sharing how many people are taking to them and how many refuses to do that.

 

[drmrgrl]

Merry Christmas to all! I love how fast this thread is moving even with the holidays… just means so many of us care and want justice for these 4!!! I thought about all of their family members the last few days … so easy to get caught up in the gifts and ripping and running, sometimes we forget how lucky we are to be busy, tired and broke! Lol!

Anyways, just here to say I’m too far behind but a few things IMO I am set on:

Suspect is a friend or pretty well acquainted with victims
There is 1 suspect, possibly a get away driver but no more perps than that
E & X and there whereabouts after the frat party are not relevant
I feel like the suspect was on some kind of drug or very intoxicated and LUCKY!!! This is my take, my opinion, I don’t need ridiculed for my opinion! Keep up the hard work WSer’s!

IMO
1 Suspect ACQUAINTED with roomies/maybe getaway driver
X and Es previous whereabouts not relevant
Suspect on drugs or inebriated
He’s no friend tho….

 

[Past Mortem]

Link was in my post.

Check the bulleted list in the article.

Article here.

This photo in the article you linked really makes me think something stopped the killer from going downstairs to the first floor. I don’t know if he was injured, interrupted, the doors were locked because they came home earlier or they were never his intended victims, but to me this photo really drives home that the first floor was safe and the others never stood a chance. It’s a really eery photo to me.

MOO

 

[Rosiebones]

Every time I follow a case like this when more is known about the WHAT that happened than about the WHY it happened, I am reminded about the Jaymie Closse case and I realize that a rational, reasoned approach on my part won't get me far.
MOO MOO MOO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

MSN

Tips led to suspicion of a white Hyundai Elantra that was captured on video during the alleged timeline of events in the early morning hours of November 13. The car was eventually located in Oregon, however, investigators dismissed the driver and vehicle as having previously believed critical information to the case.

 

[justme101]

<modsnip>


I have about 100 theories. Some of them fall into "solo perp" territory. A few of them fall into "more than one person involved." On my list for "more than one person as perp," first on my list is a group of people who live together, are *very* tight in terms of their relationships and secrecy terms. Killers do not usually take their friends along, do they?

Since every single person murdered was part of Greek life and since there are active fraternities nearby, IF A GROUP of people committed this, I think it's the Greeks.

Second theory (which I have also mentioned but no one remembers that I"m merely listing theories) would be local cult of some other type.

I do not think it was a motorcycle gang or a drug cartel. IF IT WAS A GROUP of people, it's NOT, imo, a drug cartel. Or a group of hunters. Or a motorcycle gang. Or a trade union.

I have no opinion really on whether fraternities are "particularly malicious." Any group of people can become malicious, is my view after 40 years of working in forensics. Any group at all. But it's rarely a group.

What's the last group murder you heard about? For me, they are *all* gang-related. But I don't see any evidence of traditional gangs in Moscow, ID.

<modsnip >


I simply stated that ONE KIND OF MOTIVE is to suppress someone from saying something they know - about something. One kind of motive is secrecy. If a group of people attack other people, it's a COMMON MOTIVE. I've seen it many times. I never said it was an initiation ritual. I just said that IF there were alcohol use - or even worse, hazing - or even worse, sexual assaults inside an organization (in this case, a fraternity), there is MOTIVE for people (especially the actual ones involved) to cover it up - perhaps even including homicide. Wouldn't be the first time.

But I don't believe it was a group-created murder (yet).

<modsnip>

It's improbable and it does complicate things (having multiple people involved in the killings). ALL MOO.

However, this is a highly unusual crime. Since most of this thread has been speculation about various combinations of motive and opportunity, I thought I'd SPECULATE and chime in about scenarios I haven't seen discussed much.

What it someone had a secret? Let's say the secret involved something illegal or highly disreputable or simply very private? What if one of the four victims learned this secret and the secret-keeper believes they told their friend group and that they're being gossiped about? What if they are being gossiped about? This person could be a frat boy (more on that below) or a sorority sister. This person could have a loyal defender (who is also, for lack of a better word, crazy aggressive and aggro). We have spoken of Neighbor Wars, because we all know that occasionally neighbors kill each other (or even more than one person) over petty things (petty to us). But there can be other kinds of social networks that result in violence - rare, of course, but I believe we'll eventually learn that this rare crime does have reasons behind it (from the killer or killers' points of view).

What if someone had a longterm drug problem? (NOT the victims - the perpetrator). What if the drugs included various combinations of meth (common enough in a college community) and some of the hallucinogens that college students are so into these days? What if a person spent a lot of their waking time fantasizing about violence and killing? They go on the internet and learn about weaponry, how to kill. The meth makes them feel invincible and indeed, meth can temporarily improve certain aspects of performance (like speed), but its ability to give artificial grandiosity and purpose to a user is well known. In the ER, when a person comes in under the influence of meth, almost no one can immediately tell the difference between their mental states, and a manic person - or a schizophrenic person. Psychoses can look very much alike. I haven't done research in an ER in over a decade, but when I did, of the possibilities here in the Los Angeles area, it was almost always meth causing the psychosis (not mental illness - but that did occur as well). And it was common. I was also working in jails at the same time, and we saw a lot of people go straight from a violent situation in their neighborhoods to jail - under the influence of meth. Knife waving, cutting self and others, stabbings (including of police officers), attempted stabbings (often aimed at police), etc. Most were on meth. Some were just mentally ill or drunk. Drunk + meth is a terrible combo.

Third scenario: Frat Boys. Sorry to say, but frat boys do occasionally commit crimes (often under the influence of alcohol or drugs). Some of the crimes are minor (hazing) and some are major (hazing again - because surely even frat boys know that they can kill someone with alcohol, asphyxiation (sitting on chests), or...soy sauce.

Okay, so the soy sauce didn't actually end in a death, but it came close:

Soy Sauce Overdose Nearly Killed University of Virginia Student

A young man at a frat party ingested a quart of soy sauce on a dare and began having seizures when his friends rushed him to the ER.

www.universityherald.com

Here's a link to one of the worst fraternity based crime stories:

What We Know About the 37 Frat Guys Facing Charges for the Hazing Death of a 19-Year-Old

Five men will face murder charges over a 2013 incident where a college freshman was beaten up while walking blindfolded across a frozen yard in the Pennsylvania mountains.

www.vice.com

And another:

Penn State fraternity hazing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The degree of cover-up that can happen in a frat is actually mind-boggling.

(There are way more examples over the past century - but the past decade is enough to peruse if you get interested in frat crime - there's always the Cannibal Face Eating Frat Boy who, of course, was on drugs).

-------
Having written all that, I am not any closer to a real scenario, except that I do believe this could be either an individual or more than one individual. If more than one individual, my money is on it being related to Greek life/frats/sororities. Both sororities involved in this story were on probation for hazing. Sigma Chi was in good standing, but there had been general hazing issues on campus over the past 7-8 years.

I believe that everything from crazed psycho killer to "personal reasons" killer should still be on the table. And while it seems very odd to me that there would be more than one killer or that the killer had some kind of car or back-up at the scene, I can't discount that either.

My hope is that the killer is not a loner, as they will be very hard to find. If no one knows them well, no one knows they had a certain type knife, no one ever knows that person's whereabouts and they don't always carry a cell phone, it's very depressing. But LE seems optimistic and I still believe they've had a short list of possibilities since Day 1 and that they're still working those leads. I'm guessing the siblings of EC would know quite a bit about EC's situation. If K was the actual target, unfortunately her BFF died with her. A rando who had studied the neighborhood and zeroed in on this house, on that night, is going to be very hard to find.

MOO

Hi I

It's improbable and it does complicate things (having multiple people involved in the killings). ALL MOO.

However, this is a highly unusual crime. Since most of this thread has been speculation about various combinations of motive and opportunity, I thought I'd SPECULATE and chime in about scenarios I haven't seen discussed much.

What it someone had a secret? Let's say the secret involved something illegal or highly disreputable or simply very private? What if one of the four victims learned this secret and the secret-keeper believes they told their friend group and that they're being gossiped about? What if they are being gossiped about? This person could be a frat boy (more on that below) or a sorority sister. This person could have a loyal defender (who is also, for lack of a better word, crazy aggressive and aggro). We have spoken of Neighbor Wars, because we all know that occasionally neighbors kill each other (or even more than one person) over petty things (petty to us). But there can be other kinds of social networks that result in violence - rare, of course, but I believe we'll eventually learn that this rare crime does have reasons behind it (from the killer or killers' points of view).

What if someone had a longterm drug problem? (NOT the victims - the perpetrator). What if the drugs included various combinations of meth (common enough in a college community) and some of the hallucinogens that college students are so into these days? What if a person spent a lot of their waking time fantasizing about violence and killing? They go on the internet and learn about weaponry, how to kill. The meth makes them feel invincible and indeed, meth can temporarily improve certain aspects of performance (like speed), but its ability to give artificial grandiosity and purpose to a user is well known. In the ER, when a person comes in under the influence of meth, almost no one can immediately tell the difference between their mental states, and a manic person - or a schizophrenic person. Psychoses can look very much alike. I haven't done research in an ER in over a decade, but when I did, of the possibilities here in the Los Angeles area, it was almost always meth causing the psychosis (not mental illness - but that did occur as well). And it was common. I was also working in jails at the same time, and we saw a lot of people go straight from a violent situation in their neighborhoods to jail - under the influence of meth. Knife waving, cutting self and others, stabbings (including of police officers), attempted stabbings (often aimed at police), etc. Most were on meth. Some were just mentally ill or drunk. Drunk + meth is a terrible combo.

Third scenario: Frat Boys. Sorry to say, but frat boys do occasionally commit crimes (often under the influence of alcohol or drugs). Some of the crimes are minor (hazing) and some are major (hazing again - because surely even frat boys know that they can kill someone with alcohol, asphyxiation (sitting on chests), or...soy sauce.

Okay, so the soy sauce didn't actually end in a death, but it came close:

Soy Sauce Overdose Nearly Killed University of Virginia Student

A young man at a frat party ingested a quart of soy sauce on a dare and began having seizures when his friends rushed him to the ER.

www.universityherald.com

Here's a link to one of the worst fraternity based crime stories:

What We Know About the 37 Frat Guys Facing Charges for the Hazing Death of a 19-Year-Old

Five men will face murder charges over a 2013 incident where a college freshman was beaten up while walking blindfolded across a frozen yard in the Pennsylvania mountains.

www.vice.com

And another:

Penn State fraternity hazing scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The degree of cover-up that can happen in a frat is actually mind-boggling.

(There are way more examples over the past century - but the past decade is enough to peruse if you get interested in frat crime - there's always the Cannibal Face Eating Frat Boy who, of course, was on drugs).

-------
Having written all that, I am not any closer to a real scenario, except that I do believe this could be either an individual or more than one individual. If more than one individual, my money is on it being related to Greek life/frats/sororities. Both sororities involved in this story were on probation for hazing. Sigma Chi was in good standing, but there had been general hazing issues on campus over the past 7-8 years.

I believe that everything from crazed psycho killer to "personal reasons" killer should still be on the table. And while it seems very odd to me that there would be more than one killer or that the killer had some kind of car or back-up at the scene, I can't discount that either.

My hope is that the killer is not a loner, as they will be very hard to find. If no one knows them well, no one knows they had a certain type knife, no one ever knows that person's whereabouts and they don't always carry a cell phone, it's very depressing. But LE seems optimistic and I still believe they've had a short list of possibilities since Day 1 and that they're still working those leads. I'm guessing the siblings of EC would know quite a bit about EC's situation. If K was the actual target, unfortunately her BFF died with her. A rando who had studied the neighborhood and zeroed in on this house, on that night, is going to be very hard to find.

MOO

Hi trying to flow up on your comments. Once again I think its a huge leap to go from <modnnote - posting> 4 or more recent artless on hazing, then speculating there was some secret for a motive, and tossing in possibility of meth use. As someone else pointed out if meth was involved it wouldn't have been planned out so well.
Anyway, I think one of the victims was in a fraternity, Ethan, who seems like a good guy. I was never in a fraternity and really don't even like them, but I can't recall any case where a fraternity went and murdered 3 sorority girls. I think its just common sense that a house with 5 attractive young women was the likely the underlying motivation. I have also considered a wide range of possible motives or situations. I think if its a group of guys it could possibly be over something very minor like $200 drug deal gone bad. So far there is no indication that happened.<modsnip> Although I can't possibly read even the most recent comments from last night. It would take all day just to read though the past 6 hours of comments.

 

[drmrgrl]

The victims are linked by
- age group
- university students
- social circles
- house found in
- lifestyle is a product of the other links

So the question is, is the perp also linked to them?

JMO

IMO, in some small inconsequential way.

 

[blackbeary]

One thing that is bothering me is E&X's timeline. In some MSM it says they were at the frat house until 1:45AM. In other articles it says LE is still seeking information on their whereabouts that night.

The other thing is this, they have it on a doorbell camera that K&M arrived home at !:56 by car. But there has been no mention of E&X being on that door camera. If E&X walked up the back path from the frat house, they would not be captured on the door camera as they would not be in the front. So my question how do they know that E&X arrived home at precisely 1:45 am? Also how would they know if other people returned back home with them? In other words did they return home with friends to continue the party and those individuals gave them the information that E&X along with themselves arrived home at 1:45 am and this is how LE knows that precise time?

If the party continued after E&X returned home did K&M walk in and join the party in the hour before going upstairs to bed? We know an hour passed because the last call to J was 2:52 am. Were there other individuals there during that hour? If so then it makes sense that after K&M went upstairs and after the last call was placed at 2:52 am, there could possibly be a fight that broke out between E and someone else in which the perpetrator left then returned with a knife. This is my SPECULATION only.

IMO this entire thing is over something that happened at the frat party or after E&X returned home. IMO K&M were killed because they walked in on it and could identify who was there at the time they returned home.

That is why the other two survived because they were in bed and did not see who was present in the house at that time.

This has to be JMO, NOT A FACT, because I do not have the link handy, but in one of the earlier MSM articles it stated that one of the girls on the lower floor heard loud male voices upstairs but just thought it was a party going on. I do not know if anyone else remembers reading that or not. BUT I DO NOT HAVE A LINK SO IT IS JUST MY OPINION.

Another thing from the video where the girls were pretending to be each other, one of the girls pretending to be X says "Can I have a party? It will be just a few friends." This leads me to believe that X was the one who most frequently invited friends over. This is my SPECULATION only.

JMO

Good to see you here! I agree with what you said. The ring camera should have caught EX exact time getting home, and if someone was with them, and who. Did they walk or caught a ride? Hopefully, the Elantra was seen on the ring bell, too. I hope there's an arrest sooner than later. Waiting for the Wagner case took forever, but there were many faithful people who stood strong for their families.

 

[Past Mortem]

MSN

Tips led to suspicion of a white Hyundai Elantra that was captured on video during the alleged timeline of events in the early morning hours of November 13. The car was eventually located in Oregon, however, investigators dismissed the driver and vehicle as having previously believed critical information to the case.

Wait… is the bold you’ve highlighted a typo within the article that should read “A car was eventually located…” and not “THE” ?? Because otherwise when the hell did they rule out the White Hyundai?? I know they ruled out one in Oregon however I thought they ruled out that specific car bring the one they were looking for rather than ruling out that the white Hyundai was significant to the case.

I’m confused.

 

[Kittycat40]

This photo in the article you linked really makes me think something stopped the killer from going downstairs to the first floor. I don’t know if he was injured, interrupted, the doors were locked because they came home earlier or they were never his intended victims, but to me this photo really drives home that the first floor was safe and the others never stood a chance. It’s a really eery photo to me.

MOO

Would you mind elaborating on what makes the picture creepy and how it drives home that the first floor was safe?

 

[blackbeary]

IMO Chef only recalled black SUV

Yes. It was a luxury SUV, nice looking and caught his eye. Doesn't he live in the largest apartment complex next to the students home?

 

[Past Mortem]

Would you mind elaborating on what makes the picture creepy and how it drives home that the first floor was safe?

All MOO, but it’s creepy to me having all their photos there and how it has:
3rd floor - murdered
2nd floor - murdered
1st floor - survived
I know we all know by now the layout of the house and where the victims/survivors were, but seeing it on that photo really puts it in black and white that the first floor went untouched.

IMO something stopped the killer attacking the girls on the first floor. Personally, I lean towards injury or locked bedroom doors, or both. Again, just MOO but I think if one of the survivors happened to come home later that night and their bedroom was on the 2nd or 3rd floor they would be a victim too.
I keep thinking how terrifying thoughts like this must be for the survivors and that’s what makes me find this image in particular creepy.

 

[IceCreamSundae]

MSN

Tips led to suspicion of a white Hyundai Elantra that was captured on video during the alleged timeline of events in the early morning hours of November 13. The car was eventually located in Oregon, however, investigators dismissed the driver and vehicle as having previously believed critical information to the case.

That should read, “a car was eventually located in Oregon,” because it’s clear from LE that they cleared that vehicle and owner but are still looking for the white Elantra. What bad reporting!

 

[z0mer]

That should read, “a car was eventually located in Oregon,” because it’s clear from LE that they cleared that vehicle and owner but are still looking for the white Elantra. What bad reporting!

It isn't in the article, that line was written by RAISNISBACK.

 

[Past Mortem]

That should read, “a car was eventually located in Oregon,” because it’s clear from LE that they cleared that vehicle and owner but are still looking for the white Elantra. What bad reporting!

Thank you!! So many lazy journalists these days and one word really can make a significant difference to an article. I was wondering how we all managed to miss LE ruling the Hyundai insignificant. Hopefully no one with useful information regarding the Hyundai LE are searching for sees this article!

 

[MsBetsy]

Wait… is the bold you’ve highlighted a typo within the article that should read “A car was eventually located…” and not “THE” ?? Because otherwise when the hell did they rule out the White Hyundai?? I know they ruled out one in Oregon however I thought they ruled out that specific car bring the one they were looking for rather than ruling out that the white Hyundai was significant to the case.

I’m confused.

I don't think it's accurate that police ruled out the Hyundai Elantra. As far as I know they are still seeking info about the car seen in the vicinity of the house around the time of the murders.

 

[CityKid]

Do you mean that maybe one of the victims knew something about a bad incident and told others about it? How did they know about it? Why didn't they go to the authorities?

Just trying to fit it into an scenario I hadn't yet considered.

IMO. I think one or more of the victims heard something/was told something/raised suspicions about something that they weren't supposed to learn about. I think it involved a fraternity. I think someone else learned that they knew something. I went to a school with a lot of fraternities. Fun parties, cute guys, good people for the most part. But I also learned, after the fact, of very bad things that occurred at frat houses or were related to frat activities that were swept under the carpet. I suspect that happened in this case. Whatever happened could have caused the house to lose their charter at the very least. All MOO. (Side note/true story here: I'm dancing around the details but imagine hearing about an SA that was being described as consensual, and months later the rumored victim hints to you that it happened and wasn't consensual but just wants to put it behind them. To whom do you go? IFC? Police? Or do you just support the victim and allow her to make her own choice about how this is handled?)