ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[hopewell]

I think this is a very wrong line of thinking. Just because the killer did what he did doesn't mean he is abnormal (or at least doesn't appear to be to the public).

The killer is abnormal by definition. That he doesn't appear to be is the point. Most pathological killers appear to be (superficially) normal.

Similar cases to this one were mentioned in the thread, but let's focus on the - 2004 They are very quickly apprehended. or Daniel Marsh. Both were individuals who appeared normal on the outside and people couldn't really fathom that they could do something like that. Sure, Marsh had his quirks, but friends nevertheless seemed shocked at what he did. Both were inexperienced and had no prior killings to their name. Both were stabbings (personal and rage filled). Both killers left little to no trace and in the case of Daniel Marsh he basically left virtually no evidence for the police to followt. Marsh at the time was only 15 and while his victims were very old, he was still basically just a kid. And if he wasn't for his bragging and basically confessing (with his friends and girlfriend initially took as a joke) he likely would have never been caught.

Daniel Marsh is a diagnosed psychopath and wished to be a serial killer. He plotted until he had 'had enough' of the urge to kill and then compulsively did so. Additionally, both of those you mentioned were ghosts until they weren't. Indeed, they were sick, depraved individuals who plotted and left little to no evidence. That's my point.

As you mention, the Napa killer was indeed in the victim's circle and was found when his cigarette butts were identified. That's not the case here, because the car is analogous to the cigarette butts in that if someone in the victims' circle, near or far, knew someone who knew someone who drives/drove that car, he would almost certainly be in custody at this point.

I fail to see why a 20 year old student wouldn't be able to kill 3 girls. Ethan would be the only one to put up a fight given his large stature, but against a combat knife and being drunk and sleepy, nobody has a chance.

I'm not saying a 20 year old student couldn't. I'm saying it isn't likely.

Look at the Delphi killer. People were speculating for years how brazen and experienced he must have been to just escape like that, leave little evidence and be capable of such brutality. Turns out the guy is just your average Joe with a happy family and everything. There's really absolutely nothing that would make you think this guy is a killer.

He was also a ghost.

I don't know the personality of the killer or anything about his personal life, but I do know this with almost a certainty - he likely knew the house, hated the victims personally or what they represented, planned this for some time and knew the area exceptionally well. The area is specifically a huge clue because this guy went in and out without so much as being tracked apart from some ghost car we don't know if its' related or not. And I bothered researching the area - it's literally built like a maze. There's only two roads leading out of the whole area - through Taylor Ave where there are a bunch of cameras or Walenta Dr from which there are only two real "escape routes" from. The rest are dead ends. This speaks volumes as to the knowledge of the killer of the area to me. He either lives there, has lived there or knows the area very well (parties and such).

He didn't have to know the house or the maze of roads prior. There was enough information about the house online and via location sharing that he could've found it easily. The maze of roads could've been navigated many times prior on dry runs or stalking ventures, but he didn't even have to do that with the advent of apps like Google maps/earth. The most likely scenario, in my view, is he did just that. He probably followed them anonymously on social media (their profiles were public) and tracked them like prey.

You also have to take into account that "picking the urge to kill" is highly unlikely given that he either knew when the victims would be home or he stalked the house extensively prior to them going to bed. The reason for that is that certainly this guy didn't just wake up one day and said "hey, i'm just gonna go out to this house and kill at 3:00-5:00 AM in the morning". He specifically waited for these victims, who came home late, to go to sleep. If he wanted to kill for the sake of killing, the roommates downstairs were there earlier.

The 'urge to kill' isn't typically an impulse like an overt fit of rage. It is a persistent compulsion. It doesn't mean he didn't stalk them prior and picked his opportunity in much the same way Daniel Marsh did.

As far as the lower floor surviving roommates, he likely didn't even know they were there. If he stalked the victims from the parking lot behind the house, there was little to no way of gauging whether a downstairs unit existed from that vantage point. They were merely lucky, IMO.

My opinion.

 

[layer]

Agree with the poster who said someone knows something. Someone noticed odd behavior, or an absence, or stained clothes, or cuts. Maybe a car being obsessively cleaned. Or a comment that seemed “off.” Clothes and shoes someone usually wears that are missing. Unexpected absence from work. A phone left unattended in someone’s room. A change in demeanor before and after. Browsing history. Following case updates. Buying bleach. Someone knows, hope they have the courage to come forward.

I'm trying to figure out how many of those things apply to me.

A car obsessively cleaned. Check
A comment that seemed off. Check
Unexpected absence from work. Check
A phone left unattended in someone’s room. Check
A change in demeanor before and after. Check
Following case updates. Check
Buying bleach. Check
Browsing history. Check (Seriously, I shudder to think what anyone would surmise viewing my browsing history from researching the things discussed in this forum.)

Yikes!

 

[hopewell]

Along those same lines, I wonder if psychologists or psychiatrists in town have been interviewed as to patients that might fit this profile. I'm not sure if because of the doc patient confidentiality one would come forward or not. But, I don't think this was a spur of the moment event. JMO

This cat isn't in the vicinity in my view. If he was, the car would've been identified by now.

As far as patient confidentiality goes, a clinician couldn't talk about a patient's propensity for violence unless given permission by the patient/guardian or unless there was an imminent future threat of harm to self or others. Even if the patient came in and said that he killed these folks, unless he committed the killings on the clinician's property the clinician is bound by confidentiality.

Weird I know, but there's a reason for it.

 

[tysonm266]

This cat isn't in the vicinity in my view. If he was, the car would've been identified by now.

As far as patient confidentiality goes, a clinician couldn't talk about a patient's propensity for violence unless given permission by the patient/guardian or unless there was an imminent future threat of harm to self or others. Even if the patient came in and said that he killed these folks, unless he committed the killings on the clinician's property the clinician is bound by confidentiality.

Weird I know, but there's a reason for it.

IMO, The car is not being found anytime soon. Not with the attention it is getting

 

[Nila Aella]

Hello newly registered here but been a fan of WS for a long time and have been following this thread, some really on point threads...good job sleuths

Could the infamous "white Elantra" be somewhat of a red herring from LE? Sure it was seen in the area and they would like to review all leads, However, maybe they know who the murderer is, need to build a stronger case and the seemingly urgency of wanting to speak with the Elantra driver is just not to make him think the investigation isn't hot on his trail?

At one point I did think that maybe they were trying to prove there wasn't an elantra in the area: like someone might have said they saw one and LE was trying to prove it was a lie...now I think LE knows where it came from, knows where it was near the scene, and now they need to find out where it ended up...to me it seems they are also trying to connect the dots and discover who and how many people were actually in the elantra prior to and shortly after the crime. I don't think LE would use the car to trick a POI. MOO

 

[Trino]

When I was growing up we had a serial rapist who managed to find and rape 30 women in a 2 year span. There were over 8,000 tips. it was on the news nightly. Everyone was in absolute terror, hyper vigilant but this one guy could drive around, also in a Hyundai, and find new victims every several weeks or so. He would drive around park in parking lots, watch apartment complexes or homes, and figure out how to break in, always in early morning, 4am or so, often would climb up on balconies to break in through an upper level door or window. while victim was sleeping, and rape them. Then look at other notorious killers. I'm not sure if rules here allow them to be named, but most of the ones I can think of targeted strangers in their homes. So all this guesswork that killer would have been familiar with the house, would have had a key code, isn't what usually happens. A killer who does it for compulsion, very brazen and the high risk is part of why they do it. Take the guy who murdered a journalist on borad his homemade submarine. She was doing an interview for a newspaper and he thought he could get away with it. So most of the guesswork about this case seems to attribute traits of rational normal people, and motives that don't rise to this level of horrendous crime. Especially if LE is looking for a white Hyundai and hasn't been located it suggest this is someone not close to the victims and could have first seen them either on social media or cursing the area. But remembering the serial rapist he only lived here a short while so was familiar with the area, but had never been inside any of the houses or apartments, and could find new ones every several weeks and undetected for 2 years. This was before most security cameras but still for the Moscow murders its only one crime so far and random stalker could have found and targeted the house in less than a week, got in his car and drove off out of state.

Agree he's gone from the area.

 

[Trino]

At one point I did think that maybe they were trying to prove there wasn't an elantra in the area: like someone might have said they saw one and LE was trying to prove it was a lie...now I think LE knows where it came from, knows where it was near the scene, and now they need to find out where it ended up...to me it seems they are also trying to connect the dots and discover who and how many people were actually in the elantra prior to and shortly after the crime. I don't think LE would use the car to trick a POI. MOO

If LE knows, they would be more pro-active in questioning anyone and everyone in the area.

 

[mrtnira]

I cannot help but think there is more going on here than the tragic murder of four young people. Yes, that horrible event is the catalyst for the police and other law enforcement response, but -- 60 FBI agents, the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit, the analytical staff behind them, and the State Police -- this is a lot of fire power. The murders may have brought them, but there are many other murders that don't get this kind of attention. From this, I can't help but think the murders opened the door to law enforcement about something bigger. (What that is, I don't yet have an idea that can be coherently defended by logical argument with an analytical decision-making tree.)

 

[Trino]

I'm trying to figure out how many of those things apply to me.

A car obsessively cleaned. Check
A comment that seemed off. Check
Unexpected absence from work. Check
A phone left unattended in someone’s room. Check
A change in demeanor before and after. Check
Following case updates. Check
Buying bleach. Check
Browsing history. Check (Seriously, I shudder to think what anyone would surmise viewing my browsing history from researching the things discussed in this forum.)

Yikes!

You don't happen to have an Elantra, do you? Oh, never mind. Waiting until a reward is offered (LOL).

 

[tysonm266]

IMO it's because LE has never mentioned the ex by name or even by reference to his relationship to K. He has only been referred to by LE as the male who they called repeatedly. There is no reason for LE to say specifically who has the dog.

True, but even the family members who have spoken haven't mentioned it either.

 

[Stephen2022]

Agree with the poster who said someone knows something. Someone noticed odd behavior, or an absence, or stained clothes, or cuts. Maybe a car being obsessively cleaned. Or a comment that seemed “off.” Clothes and shoes someone usually wears that are missing. Unexpected absence from work. A phone left unattended in someone’s room. A change in demeanor before and after. Browsing history. Following case updates. Buying bleach. Someone knows, hope they have the courage to come forward.

Agree and IMO The other explantion for nobody coming forward or noticing odd behavoir could be that the killer is a loner and may even had been visiting from out of area further away than where media attention not as strong as within state. Being loner living alone no one would have noticed. May work alone ie self emplyed where absence or injuries not noticed. I

 

[hopewell]

IMO, The car is not being found anytime soon. Not with the attention it is getting

May not be found at all, but if in the general area should be identified by now.

 

[Thora_Jay]

IMO it's because LE has never mentioned the ex by name or even by reference to his relationship to K. He has only been referred to by LE as the male who they called repeatedly. There is no reason for LE to say specifically who has the dog.

True, but even the family members who have spoken haven't mentioned it either.

It has been known for over a month who has Murphy. Jack, Kaylee's ex has him.


link:
Murdered Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves’ spared dog now in ex-boyfriend Jack’s care

 

[MsWarrior55]

I wonder if it is/was possible to have tracked all four victims during the prior week of their deaths on cameras around town to see if they could spot someone seen in multiple locations near them. I also wonder if the killer isn't someone like Israel Keyes (deceased). Keyes targeted random people across the United States to avoid detection with months of planning before committing a particular crime. He was said to have done it for entertainment. Truly one of the scariest killers.

 

[tysonm266]

It has been known for over a month who has Murphy. Jack, Kaylee's ex has him.


link:
Murdered Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves’ spared dog now in ex-boyfriend Jack’s care

Thanks! I thought I was following this better but missed that.

 

[Diddian]

One of the things I keep coming back to is the 3 female victims all came from the Coeur d'Alene area (CdA, Post Falls, Rathdrum) and they had been friends before college. Is the fact that these were the 3 females killed purely a coincidence?

KG had recently been staying back at her family's home in the CdA area, but came back to Moscow that weekend (to attend a Pi Phi party and to show MM her new vehicle, according to KG's family members). She had also recently broken things off with her longtime boyfriend (who was also from the CdA area) and was planning on moving to Texas after backpacking in Europe for a month after graduating in December.

Did something get stirred up back in CdA while KG was there? And someone from there blamed not just KG, but also the 2 friends from CdA she lived with in Moscow? Maybe someone figured the other 2 bolstered KG's intention to move on with her life to new adventures outside of Idaho (as close friends tend to do)?

Why were only those 3 (KG, MM, XK) - plus EC who was staying over with XK - killed, and the 2 female residents downstairs spared?

Of course, it could be simply that the perpetrator(s) did not know the 2 first floor residents were present, or those residents' doors were locked, or the perpetrator(s) got spooked after encountering and having to overcome an unexpected male on the 2nd floor, or the perpetrator(s) discovered the dog in the home and decided they'd be stretching their luck at avoiding discovery after killing 4, so departed.

But if he knew they were there...

Would a mass killer like an "Incel" stop at 4, when 2 others symbolic of the object of his hostility are present and sleeping and no alarm has yet been raised?

Would an angry and impulsive neighbor who had "had it so up to here that he'd stab four people to death" over the loud and late partying stop at 4, when 2 others are present and sleeping and no alarm has yet been raised?

I go back and forth between thinking this crime committed by someone with long tenure in the close circle of the 3 female victims (or possibly one-step removed from that close circle - a friend of a friend in the close circle OR someone who believed himself in who was actually not) and thinking it the work of a relative stranger who cased this house and property (and likely followed the lives of the victims on social media and may also have occasionally followed them as they partied in town). If a relative stranger - that he'd kill 4 likely means he is an established serial killer or has long fantasized about becoming one. 4 is very bold.

MOO, with obviously minimal basis as we know so little.

Edited for clarification.

 

[maskedwoman]

I think one killer in each victim room, each killing two people quickly, is definitely a probability. The third person would be the Elantra driver, circling around and waiting to pick up either the killers or their bloody garments. I'm hoping this is what happened; as soon as one is cornered by LE, there's a greater likelihood in another rolling over. I think they're local and home for the holidays, and I think this will break wide open then. MOO

Can someone help me with a potential motive for multiple murderers to kill these four, yet leave two potential witnesses alive? I would expect a group, who thoughts things out ahead of time, to be prepared enough to make sure they left no potential witnesses. Someone would have to be the ringleader and convince the others to carry out this plan. Multiple murderers also makes mistakes more likely. Even with a murder for hire, I think it's unlikely that this would be a group of well-prepared attackers. Normal people wouldn't know where to find the kind of assassin TV has trained us to think of, nor would they have the money to pay them. And a real assassin wouldn't choose knives as their weapon. Too messy, which increases the risk to them. Makes a clean get away more difficult.

The more I've thought about it, the less I'm inclined to believe sudden rage motivated the killer/s. We've heard that LE believe the crime was targeted, but we haven't seen much about what kind of attack it was. Rageful overkill, or what. In general, rage makes people less organized and less controlled. Not quiet. I don't see someone like that sneaking into the house. Or laying in wait. Rage demands action. I'm also doubtful of the ability to maintain rage after killing two and going to the second area. I would think just the time it takes to change floors would be long enough to start thinking "OMG, what have I done?" Would someone having those thoughts be able to even continue in the second area? I don't know.

It's possible E was not as much of a problem as he might first appear. They've been partying until the wee hours and have only been asleep a short while, and it's the time of night where the body is at lowest ebb. I haven't read anything about E's personality, skills or habits, so I have no idea whether he would even attempt to stand his ground against an armed intruder or try to escape the room and get help. The former would be heroic, the latter totally human and understandable.

Hatred killings are the ones I find most difficult to understand. The mass shooters that immediately spring to mind don't seem to care whether they lived at the end of things or not. They just want to kill/punish as many of the people they hate as they can. Although I did read of several stabbing mass murders, I haven't read any detailed information about those cases. It does feel like these killers didn't want to be caught, and that he/they either killed everyone they came to kill, or were sufficiently disorganized that they didn't make sure they had found everyone in the house. And I'm back to whether the locked doors would be a real obstacle to a determined hate killer.

I would love to think the investigation will progress a lot after the holidays, and it certainly may. But I wonder if the killer/s remained in the area at all, or will return to the area. A professional killer (although I don't agree with that scenario right now) would not stay around and wait to be caught. They have no reason to do that, and their best defense is to disappear for good. A rage killer might be shocked by their own actions and possibly seem different to friends and family. Agitated, worried, brooding. Perhaps even nightmares. I can't imagine such a person would go back to Idaho and wait for the police to figure things out. The hate mass killer might feel quite justified with their actions. Would they welcome the eventual chance to tell why they did it? I don't know. Either way, the police may end up having to extradite someone from another state. IMHO.

 

[indicolite22]

He wasn't interested in the girls? But says a lot of guys were talking to them at the bar? And knew exactly who was seeing them home? How do we know he wasn't drunk? At the least he was closely following the actions of the girls, obsessively, imo.

Just because someone's behavior is noticeable to others, it doesn't make people noticing it obsessive.

 

[tysonm266]

I wonder if it is/was possible to have tracked all four victims during the prior week of their deaths on cameras around town to see if they could spot someone seen in multiple locations near them. I also wonder if the killer isn't someone like Israel Keyes (deceased). Keyes targeted random people across the United States to avoid detection with months of planning before committing a particular crime. He was said to have done it for entertainment. Truly one of the scariest killers.

KG had only been back for a few days though. Which begs the ?, why wasn't she there if classes were still going? I graduated from college 25 years ago so I guess maybe with virtual options now it may not be necessary. I don't remember leaving early until finals were complete. Also, the party kids always seemed to stay even after they were done. MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

He wasn't interested in the girls? But says a lot of guys were talking to them at the bar? And knew exactly who was seeing them home? How do we know he wasn't drunk? At the least he was closely following the actions of the girls, obsessively, imo.

Maybe he was just a people watcher. I am one myself and often find the interactions between people highly amusing.