ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[OckhamsRazor22]

I believe more than one person is involved in this case and I'm really hoping some time home with their families and maybe some parental skepticism and questioning will lead to some lesser-involved (i.e. driver or disposer of bloody garments) person(s) cracking.

I hope you are correct. I personally feel it’s only one lone male. In and out. He is stealth, capable, always flies under the radar, and will not be talking. He’s like Mercury. This one will be a tough nut to crack. And I do believe it’s solvable. Once the dots connect, and 1+1 actually equals 2. Right now, it’s in the “holding” phase. Critical for the foundation of the case. Sorting through all the BS and infinite superfluous nonsensical tips to get to the genuine evidence creates a horrid BOG effect. Once they get out from that - they’ll be making much better headway. JMOO.

 

[Which_pancake]

Leaving the all the controversy behind, there is one question about this case that has puzzled me from the beginning that I have not seen addressed. Simply, how can someone murder 4 people with a knife without a scream, a shout, any sort of warning let alone a struggle of some sort. At first glance this seems impossible.

I don't think it would be that difficult to immediately incapacitate a sleeping person (slice their throat for example). By the time the sleeping partner stirs, do the same to them. Then move on to the next room. This is just an example, but I think the key is that the victims were asleep and therefore easy to attack, and it would be relatively quick to incapacitate/silence someone with a knife. MOO

 

[gliving]

Ok, but you actually may be right. I tried to locate any mainstream media article that would confirm the text about sharing a dog, and I was unable to find a single one.

It's here in this video at about 7:25. SG only says it was one of Kaylee's last messages to JD. He doesn't time the message.

Parents of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves speak out | Fox News Video

Fox News host Lawrence Jones speaks with the parents of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves, Steve and Kristi Goncalves, on 'Lawrence Jones Cross Country.'

www.foxnews.com

 

[10ofRods]

Leaving the all the controversy behind, there is one question about this case that has puzzled me from the beginning that I have not seen addressed. Simply, how can someone murder 4 people with a knife without a scream, a shout, any sort of warning let alone a struggle of some sort. At first glance this seems impossible.

Well, at risk of being a broken record, that's why I was emphasizing what SG said about Kaylee's wounds. It's in the media thread. I will post this and then edit it to put in an actual link (I posted the link several times yesterday, but this is a new thread)...

SG says that Kaylee's injuries were to her lungs and liver. People here have argued that simply cutting someone's larynx would cease all speech (it sort of would - there could still be moans or sounds though). No one is going to die quickly from that injury. I am arguing that this killer (based merely on SG's statements) was particular about how he did this crime. It's not hard to find instructions on the internet - I was shocked to see instructions on how to best kill someone with knife offense with a quick google search. With pro's and con's of each method of killing.

NSFW, NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH...

SG says they were "big gaping wounds." This is consistent with manuals, books and youtubes on how to use a knife to kill humans. It's consistent with the Ka-Bar style of knife (I am not going to post those links again - surely we all know that's on the media thread and is discussed here daily). And I have a bias: I believe what SG said that the Coroner told him. This is a professional bias, just as a mandated reporter believes the victim's story, I believe the accounts of crime victims - as anthropologists treat all informants as truthful, we are not lie detectors or criminologists. So grain of salt, I guess.

So, what the killer does is destroy the lungs, not just take a small blade and stick it in and deflate the lungs. If the person is lying down, they may need to be repositioned (hence, some mention of defensive wounds). But, knife goes up under the rib cage, into each lung, wiggles around, deflates the lung (which will also start to fill with blood). No sound will be emitted by that person any more.

Why not slash the throat? Because it can be hard to do if you're not behind a sitting or standing victim. AND, it will cause arterial blood spurt and the killer gets much more bloody (I think the killer did not want to get all bloody).

Why the liver? Because the same type of damage to the liver is going to cause rapid bleed-out and death (the liver itself does not feel pain - keep that in mind; Does the Liver Feel Pain?) I believe this explains why Mabbutt said "they didn't suffer" or similar words. Striking a knife into bones is much more painful (and the muscles overlying the liver would feel pain - but IOW, it's less excruciating than it might sound. Some online guides mention this as a more humane way of killing. Just saying what I found online, don't come at me - I believe the killer went online (probably at the university library).

So with 3 intense strokes per victim, with the blade held saber style (not in what is called the "stabbing" grip by some), the blade would not catch on bone or cartilege (or be unlikely to), victim would be silenced, then bleed out. I personally believe the killer knew this so well that once this was done, he moved on, knowing that person would die and not waiting to necessarily to see that they were dead. He knew they'd be dead (and he was masked, anyway IMO).

THAT is why I brought up SG's words yesterday. I think SG is emphasizing those organs for a reason. If it turns out that all four victims have similar injuries (even if Kaylee's are worse), then I am betting an actual donut that the killer had a plan in mind to silence and cause exsanguination before he ever went inside. I am not betting the whole farm - but I'm willing to put the THEORY out there.

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

The father of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves said the victims had "big open gouges" that were clearly the work of a "sadistic male" and called police "cowards" for not sharing more with the public.

www.fox10phoenix.com

(And if SG is correct and the wounds don't match, then I would assume MM was killed in a different manner, perhaps because the killer couldn't get into position to use the same method). I am ready for the autopsy results to show either thing (just KG had lung/liver wounds or that all did - or that any subset did). But I am betting that lunch money ($0-1) that at least two victims had the same types of wounds.

Here's an article on just how dire severe liver injuries can be, even if the person gets to the OR relatively quickly:

Fatal Hepatic Hemorrhage: An Unresolved Problem in the... : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

ies, were due to exsanguination. A critical analysis of the specific surgical techniques used for hemostasis was undertaken. Hepatotomy with subsequent direct vascular and/or biliary duct repair or ligation was used in 44% of the cases and was successful 87% of the time. Hepatic resection was...

journals.lww.com

 

[Snoop Sister]

View attachment 390423

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268898017.html

Yes, I read a few articles, which stated the surviving girls heard something and I have read in a few articles that report the girls did not hear anything .
However, where did you read (as you posted), the survivors heard male voices arguing? For some reason when I reply to a post, it is not copying the post that I am replying to. So, if you weren’t the one posting about the girls stating they heard males arguing, I apologize.

 

[NuttMegg]

I remember that being said in MSM also. I too am hoping someone kept the link to it.

JMO

it would have been very early MSM, as here is about the only place I read. Given that my one attempt to read at the R site fried my tablet, requiring a complete factory reset.

 

[blackbeary]

View attachment 390423

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article268898017.html

Thank You

 

[RAISINISBACK]

In all reality when looking at what actually happened, this crime doesn’t look like college aged kid stuff. I think a lot of the “clues” and characters that have been discussed might actually just be clues about kid drama and that’s it.

IMO (could be wrong), I don’t see the killer as having many friends/present family (which eliminates most of the names floating around). And again not someone around 20. Late 20s at a minimum. I think the killers life consists of only doing messed up stuff or doing nothing fulfilling with not a lot in between.

I also think there is a small chance they were directed to do the act. Especially if there was a vehicle involved and more than one person.

I disagree. There have been plenty of kids who have taken their online games offline into the real world that resulted in deaths.

I may also point out that there have been online gamers who have "swatted" each other resulting in deaths.

So yes, in reality what actually happened does look like kid stuff. But it also looks like adult stuff.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Breakout said:
I agree. It’s interesting and disturbing. It tells me that the people attending that Sigma Chi event haven’t been providing the info that LE needs to establish that particularly timeline. The announcement that “other (possibly criminal) activities” in photos in videos would be overlooked also seems to be directed at the fraternity or party guests. Who else would that be directed towards? Certainly not the people at the Corner Club.

Fraternity culture has long been one to “lock down and get the story straight” whether faced with hazing allegations or any other bad behavior they are being called out on. IMO some things aren’t lining up with E and X and whatever happened at Sigma Chi that evening.


I agree 100%.

JMO

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

IMO every killer is an amateur at one time. First time for everything adage.

I disagree that this was a psychotic serial killer. Serial killers have types. If you look at the women victims of a serial killer they all look enough alike to be sisters or brothers. An SK carefully watches for someone who fits his "type". A SK doesn't pick a random house and kill two blonde females, one brunette female and one male. Some of the people who have been mentioned on here are not bona fide serial killers. They are mass murderers, family annihilators or spree killers, not true serial killers like Bundy, Dahmer, BTK ect. A serial killer kills one victim at a time who has something in common with all his other victims, e.g all blondes, all brunettes, all children, all women, all men, all prostitutes ect.

These kids knew their killer and he knew them. Probably well. Knew their inclination to drink, party, have an open door policy at their home ect. This was no random guy hiding up in the woods and suddenly deciding to stab 4 people to death.

There is a motive behind these killings. The main motives for murder is money, sex or revenge. I would add keeping a secret but with 4 victims it is unlikely all 4 knew the killers secret. If keeping a secret known to one victim was the motive it would have been easier to get that victim alone rather than enter a house with six people or possibly more, that may or may not have been asleep. If one person in that house was awake they could have called 911. That is why I discount that theory, too many unknowns and variables.

This was not an assassination. Assassins don't use knives for a very good reason. If the target is a male and awake or wakes up during the attack the victim might fight back to the point he gains control of the assassins knife and turns it on him. If the target is a woman she might fight enough to get away. Assassins use a gun usually with a silencer and do a double tap to the head quietly and quickly.

This was a rage fueled murder. As SG described it "Sloppy, messy". No planning went into this. This was spur of the moment fueled by an overwhelming rage at one or more of the victims. You can bet the killer made a mistake or several of them that will lead to his/her arrest.

In naming the usual motives for murder, we know it was not money, nothing was stolen, it was not sex, no one was raped, so that leaves only revenge.

So what was the revenge for?

An altercation between the killer and one or more of the victims? This could have easily occurred at any one of these parties where you have testosterone filled young men drinking heavily. A friends grandson recently ended up with a broken nose after a dispute over ownership of a fishhook during a party just to outline how little a fight ending in injuries can break out where alcohol or drugs are involved. Here you have entire fraternities and sororities full of such young people all drinking and partying heavily, indeed from statistics, half of a town full. It's easy to see how an altercation that night or revenge for a prior altercation could have provoked these murders.


An ex boyfriend/girlfriend (I am not singling out any particular ex since I am sure all 4 victims have had prior ex boy/girlfriends at their age.)? Little has been said about prior relationships before college or the current ones named. M met her BF at college, E&X met at college, K had recently broken off a semi long term relationship that did not preclude a different relationship in between those on/off again breakups or even a current one that led to the breakup. Them being in a relationship does not preclude them having a fling outside the relationship at one time or another either. It's easy to see a jilted lover being responsible especially if that jilted lover believed the other three friends were in some way involved in he/she being jilted. I am not ruling out a woman with strong upper body strength, rage filled woman, with 4 drunk, sleeping victims.

Someone in that house was connected to the evil that came in it that night. That you can be sure of. Eventually the police will single out which one which in turn will lead them to the killer.

Then you have a college full of young people who live on SM and post their innermost private details of their lives on it. Nothing remains a secret for long among very socially active kids these days. Sooner or later, sworn to secrecy frat brothers or sorority sisters or not, someone will talk. After all this is the murder of 4 people, not a super secret dark of the night Greek ritual known only to the brothers and sisters of that Greek house.

Give these kids some time to think about how being charged as an accessory to 4 first degree murders can ruin their bright futures and all that sworn to be brothers and sisters forever will fly out the window.

ETA: When the killer is named there is going to be a lot of shock among relatives, townsfolk and people on here as to who it is and how close they were to the victims. IMO it's going to come out of left field.

JMO

I never use or mention the term SK. Much too broad a brush for me. The “connection” can be a glimpse or two in the crosshairs. Sometimes that’s all it takes to light the match (when his inherent tank is nearly full). It’s a compulsion of the worst type.

I hold to the belief that he resides nearby, within the line of sight and walking distance. He’s not personally known to the victims or a part of their inner social circle. They may have seen him, or vice versa. Aside from that? Nada. A killer needn’t always know the victims or even have a motive (ie: vendetta, rage, etc.) to commit such a crime. They may simply target the “home” - for whatever reason, and whoever is inside becomes collateral. Sometimes, they just go hunting. It’s the world in which we all live, and it’s shared with unimaginable creatures capable of committing unforgettable atrocities. Stay safe out there. JMOO.

 

[layer]

Disclaimer: All in My Opinion Only

Have read nearly every post in this forum, and posted a few times, re: greek-life factor/secrecy and a simple scenario. Not much response. Maybe the rationale seemed vague or too simple. JMO

Both were invitations to try Inductive reasoning.

• The theories across the threads appear based on Deductive reasoning, taking apart the big picture; e.g. discussions about weapon, personalities, the dog, the late phone calls
• Looking at the crime with Inductive reasoning, the effort is to map the small pieces into a picture; e.g. how many possible sources of the knife (not its type)
• These are opposite approaches, not opposing views. They are complimentary, thus making everyone’s opinion valuable

There are not many big details, but certainly many small details. LE, FBI, BAU are looking but cannot, should not, reveal them; hence the request for any details from anyone else that could have something to see that is not the actual focus of the image or activity. Whether from a car or social media.

Approaching like a Logic Puzzle or exponential Clue game, and adding the element of “Why?”

Curious if anyone else is interested in this approach.
There are many details to consider mapping.
All IMOO. IMHO.

Link is for 'Difference between Inductive and Deductive' reasoning, face validity, survey questions. This is more experimentally explained, but the definitions are fairly universal, IMO. IMOO.

What's the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning? (scribbr.com)

Interesting post!
I, for one, employ more than a fair amount of inductive reasoning in my theories posted on here. You may have seen my pattern posts.

 

[Montecore1]

But who gave them a 1:45 arrival time for E&X or from what source did it come from?

Exactly
Also, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no information of what all 6 of these young people were doing Saturday day or Friday night...could something of happened in the 24-48 hours before the timeline picks up at 8pm (ish) on the 12th?

 

[SMK777]

It's here in this video at about 7:25. SG only says it was one of Kaylee's last messages to JD. He doesn't time the message.

Parents of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves speak out | Fox News Video

Fox News host Lawrence Jones speaks with the parents of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves, Steve and Kristi Goncalves, on 'Lawrence Jones Cross Country.'

www.foxnews.com

Thanks!

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

All IMHO -
I’m personally sad to be reading so many conspiracy theories about someone targeting X and E.
They didn’t tick anybody off, no hit men (eyes rolling around and around), no drug cartels, nada.

It simply didn’t happen.

They are just regular, nice, good and normal college kids.

Here‘s the real scoop:they were young and in love.
Simple as that. Nothing to report here.
Likely they spent quality time and possibly quantity time in the privacy of E’s room at the Sigma Chi house and/or they may have gone back and forth from X’s private locked bedroom at King Road to the frat party 5 minutes away.
They were off the grid doing what young and in love college people do in some form or fashion and nobody else paid any attention to their coming and going from the frat party.
They may have gone to take a nap and cuddle, right?
Timeline filled in.
Been there, done that.

Nothing nefarious happened that night until hours later.
It was a regular normal Saturday night for a regular normal college couple until it wasn’t.

Perfectly pieced together and definitely the most likely & plausible scenario. Thank you. I also do not adhere to the ideal that the killer is a university student. JMOO

 

[Emerald1328]

The first round of forensic testing is usually the separation of gathered evidence into various categories (primarily organic vs inorganic) in preparation for DNA tests.

Incomplete DNA samples (possibly including swabs from door jambs, door knobs, etc - although I think this killer wore gloves) take much longer to identify, separate, process, study and, if possible, reunite into a more complete/usable DNA profile.

I have posted the times for expedited DNA study in Idaho (ISP labs) several times (45-60 days - RUSH). And the first process (initial forensic sample testing) is also 45-60 days.

Naturally, if you have an actual body and blood for the body, a mobile DNA unit can process such a clearcut sample in a short period of time (less than an hour if they want to). However, all that does is give you each of victims' DNA maps. This is necessary to look for stranger DNA, but I believe that there was tons of non-victim DNA in that house (DNA persists a very long time, withstands hot water, cleaning agents, even bleach, etc, etc)

I do not think DNA is going to help much in solving this crime unless they already have a suspect or suspects in mind. And even then, it will just be internal confirmation of the rest of the investigation, because unless the killer(s) spit on the victims or cut themselves and left blood drops, their skin cell/partial DNA will be tiny and even if admixed with victim blood, there's probably also *other* non-victim trace DNA in the same blood samples (from the floor).

DNA persists on people's clothing. It gets transferred.

DNA from workers in China shows up transferred to other clothing by washing machines.

If the perp has ever been in the house (and since the house was unsupervised and caught on LE camera being unsupervised with non-residents galore inside the house on Sept 1 - and probably Sept 2 as well), they can say there is an innocent reason for their DNA to be among the profiles of several other profiles.

And, btw, except for *very* broad pictures painted (mostly) by Y chromosome analysis, there is no way to use a partial sample (or even a full sample) to fully assess "race" (whatever that is), but just general ancestry. Fun fact: Australian aborigines, isolated from any other continent for 40,000 years, are closest in genome to ethnic Chinese - who appeared in China around 6000 years ago). Does this mean Aborigines colonized China? Nope. There were hundreds of tribal groups bearing the same markers all over Asia at the time, many of the groups now extinct/absorbed by other populations. And so, the "ethnic" markers of the Chinese cannot distinguish a Chinese person from many Australian aborigines or some other Melanesians.

OTOH, LE may wait for the results to get back and reassess. If they learn (as I'm sure they are aware) that the stranger DNA results are entirely inconclusive and would require vast genetic genealogy (with weak DNA reconstructions), they may strategize and file an arrest affidavit without even using the DNA - or, if there's weak evidence about one person, they'd add that in last and not emphasize it.

I think they have a good idea about who this *might* be, and this person has to be handled very carefully. I would wager more than my lunch money that said person is living on the down-low right now (my lunch money is about $1). If I had to guess, I'd say he's still on campus. I have theories about his lifestyle, but they are based only on the examples of now-incarcerated students who have acted out on various campuses, mostly in my own neck of the woods. I believe LE is keeping an eye on this person or persons.

I think @The Observer was just responding to the poster who said it was the FBI’s mobile lab that was on scene, pointing out it was actually ISP that was processing the DNA. Not saying anything about how DNA is processed, how long it takes, etc.

 

[blackbeary]

Weird that EC's mother would know that, which means to me that parents of all 6 victims/unharmed girls know it too. But I do recall from the first someone saying that the unharmed girls "heard something but thought it was a party". That's just what I remember. I hope someone will post any other reference to something being heard.

Imo

The police chief said that young officer's, friends and family were at the scene. I'm assuming that means the siblings were called there , or were there because they had plans for the day with one of the siblings, or they were expected at work or some event, and didn't show up.
M00

 

[layer]

It's here in this video at about 7:25. SG only says it was one of Kaylee's last messages to JD. He doesn't time the message.

Parents of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves speak out | Fox News Video

Fox News host Lawrence Jones speaks with the parents of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves, Steve and Kristi Goncalves, on 'Lawrence Jones Cross Country.'

www.foxnews.com

Correct, he doesn't give the time or say whether it was a text or voice mail. I think the argument can be made that SG was talking about those last early morning calls, based on the context in which he says that. If anyone is interested I can expand on that.
Otherwise, carry on!

 

[indicolite22]

But who gave them a 1:45 arrival time for E&X or from what source did it come from?

JMO

SBM. Neighbor's security camera perhaps? Just like K and M's arrival home.

 

[CityKid]

Weird that EC's mother would know that, which means to me that parents of all 6 victims/unharmed girls know it too. But I do recall from the first someone saying that the unharmed girls "heard something but thought it was a party". That's just what I remember. I hope someone will post any other reference to something being heard.

Imo

In the interview (Full interview: Mother of slain Idaho student speaks for the first time | Banfield) EC's mother says she hasn't communicated with the other families.
Edited to add: She says re: the first-floor survivors: "They had to have heard something." Not that she knew they heard something.

 

[10ofRods]

Showing my tremendous grasp of the obvious, I think LE really wants photos from that night. Young adults inadvertantly archive everything! Wealth of digital evidence! LE isn't going to ask for specifics because that would be too revealing but IMO they are looking to piece together a timeline and attendance and are specifically looking for photos of what's not in them.

Who was there, who left and when.

Alibi-busters.

JMO

Right? That seems to be the angle for this week. As far as I can tell (mostly through reading here), LE is trying to reassure people that even if a picture shows someone doing something for which there's usually zero tolerance (cannabis, for example), they want to see pictures of that evening. But it's very non-specific. Every picture of every dorm, sidewalk, residential house, bar, coffee house?

Have they made it more specific yet?

Alibi busting indeed. Which makes me think even more that LE thinks this is someone from Moscow, someone who will be IN PICTURES from that night (at least one major party that night - not far from 1122 King Road, but tons of minor parties as well). Dash cam video from departing partiers (who might also be audible and not entirely sober in their recordings) might be of huge value, if it's from that 1-2 square miles around 1122.

I guess my question is more about procedure. If you have a very blood scene, which this must have been, blood pool under and around the victims, and then spatter around, a few drops of which are the killers. How is the killers identified? I can't imagine each drop of blood spatter is individually tested. If it is mixed in a pool of blood, can it be separated and identified? How does that work.

Ah. Well, that has been my main point, it's very difficult. But since you do propose a scene in which the killer has "drops" of blood, it's a bit easier. Maybe a lot easier.

Each drop of blood is swabbed and collected and labeled separately. Usually takes about 3 people to do this. Photos will be taken of the collection area.

If there's a separate drop of the killer's blood, it will be obvious, as it will contain his full complement of DNA (most likely - highly likely), and it won't match any of the victims. That would be awesome.

If that drop of blood is IN a bigger pool of blood, then it's all a game of chance. There's a tool called a forensic vacuum that is used to suction up pools of blood. In X and E's room, for example, we would expect the contents of the vacuum to contain by X and E's cells and their full complement of DNA (which can be matched to samples from their actual bodies). But the killer's blood (if blood cells were intact - which they should be) would light up the computer upon analysis.

But they would have to run many samples (all of the contents of the vacuum) in tiny amounts over many days to find this. Vacuum contents dumped, inert particles (fibers, etc) separated, then 1000's of individual samples run through the sequencer. I've never heard of entire quarts of blood to be sent through a sampler in tiny portions in order to try and find stranger DNA - but you know what? That's the kind of thing the FBI loves to get into, both with its own staff geneticists and by working closely with experts at major universities where there's tons of equipment. It would be a needle in a haystack thing.

Do I think MPD and its forensic team did this (vacuumed up as much of the blood as they could and sent it all for analysis)? I think it's very possible. But if the killer wasn't dripping blood as he walked from place to place, they may not be pressuring the lab to prioritize this immense task. Easier if the killer dripped blood somewhere.

Unfortunately, no word from LE as to whether such a blood trail exists and I was disappointed to see very few evidence markers outside the house (not that MSM got good pictures of all angles, but still).