ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[seasideForest]

Didn't he fixed the lock instead of change it.

I can't remember confirmation that X's father did anything to the locks. I think the supposition came about due to something X's mother said but it wasn't quite audible. Way, way back in the threads. JMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

All IMO IMOO
Still think greek-life is a factor, whether/not an actual member is involved. It does impact the investigation, maybe causing the lack of confirmed (not anonymous) information.

-Most fraternal organizations are multi-million dollar outfits, some with very influential alumni
-Both they and universities are ‘somewhat protected’ in their legal structures.
-The common factor of greek groups is secrecy. By definition.
-This secrecy commands loyalty and a member's loyalty can be readily scrutinized by other members,
eg 'why are you studying with a Mu when we’re linked to the Taus?' 'You can't bring Lambda GF to my cousin's Eta dance,' 'All Upsilons are jerks,' ... and you should agree.
-Members are very young people, many still teen-agers, away from home and without much supervision.

As soon anything inappropriate happens, the SILENCE begins. The greek organizations’ message is "Don't talk.”
Does not matter if it is about yours or any other greek organization and includes all local (non-greek, non-univ) associates. Bring nobody to this house.

Silence = Do not allow your loyalty to be challenged. These are your life-time, chosen brothers/sisters.
LE’s 'If you saw anything or know anything' is the opposite of 'Don't talk.'

UI enrollment has approx 11,200 students with 23% greek membership, meaning there are over 2,500 brothers and sisters across 34 recognized chapters.

Yes, agree, ‘Someone has information’ and it may take an outsider to see it in the background.
All IMO IMOO

Fraternity & Sorority Life | University of Idaho (uidaho.edu)
Moscow police say ‘someone has information’ about unsolved Idaho murders (msn.com)

Respectfully, as a Greek Life Alumni, there is no way my sorority or brothers would purposely keep silent about a deranged killer who viciously murdered 4 fellow members. Were missteps and questionable actions covered up and overlooked during those early learning years? Absolutely, but not something of this magnitude. No way IMO.

There is strong sense of fellowship/family among members and I believe if someone had reliable information, they would get it to LE right away.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

So I keep trying to find cases that parallel our case here, and the only one that comes close is that of the Grangegorman Killings. Of course, there are big differences, too, but it's a solo perp (Mark Nash) who murdered 2 and left 1 alive by knifing in this small Irish village. So not a quadruple murder, but a double murder and possible intent to kill everyone in the house. Some sexual motivations, too. But what I found interesting is that, after he killed again:

...Mark Nash most definitely did not lay awake in bed, crying after the murders. His girlfriend at the time would later testify in court that she noticed absolutely no change in his behavior after the murders. The only thing she could say she noticed was that he started showering more than usual...

Whew. So this guy went and blended in again (until he didn't and was finally caught after another set of horrific murders, also with a knife).

I am not sure what to call Nash but PsychoKiller comes to mind (he was convicted). Here's the wiki:

Grangegorman killings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Data Sleuth]

So,
As I understand the bedrooms where attacks happened, were NOT locked for the night?

Only those on ground floor were?

We simply don’t know.

 

[Which_pancake]

Respectfully, as a Greek Life Alumni, there is no way my sorority or brothers would purposely keep silent about a deranged killer who viciously murdered 4 fellow members. Were missteps and questionable actions covered up and overlooked during those early learning years? Absolutely, but not something of this magnitude. No way IMO.

There is strong sense of fellowship/family among members and I believe if someone had reliable information, they would get it to LE right away.

JMO

I agree. Though I was not personally involved in Greek life, family members were and I got the impression that it was mainly about integrating into a social circle while away from home and on your own for the first time. Like any other young adult groups, sometimes questionable things happen at Greek events. But this idea that it's a weird secret society that could cover up crime like the Mafia doesn't really match what I know of sororities and fraternities. MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Perhaps when the student went to register it and obtain the parking permit they didn't have the plate number with them and were allowed the permit with the stipulation they would return with the plate number and just never did and no one at the university followed up on it.
moo

And I'll bet the person who "forgot" that small detail and was allowed to bend the rules...gets allowances like that from others, as well. Just a hunch. IMO.

While that doesn't mean they are a murderer, I would be suspicious if I were LE.

 

[gizmobtj]

You're grossly overexaggerating what I said. I said that killers plan for risk, but a serial killer, whether organized or not, would pick the path with the least resistance. Which is why most serial killers target lonely women and even serial killers that are enormously risky in their behavior as the example I gave with ONS, do everything in their power to minimize said risk.

This situation is not the same as that of a serial killer. It's of a killer that invades a complex three stories house in a highly dangerous neighborhood (very active area late at night, very few escape routes, house is in very close distance to other buildings) armed with just a knife. What does this tell you? It tells to me that the killer has a specific grudge with these people to the point that it overrides his safety faculties that we as humans have them genetically instilled in our brains and behavior. Because of this it's very unlikely to me that a serial killer would take that kind of risk instead of attacking a house which a single victim.

And to be honest, Bundy has always been very disorganized and impulsive type of killer. It's not just something that came up later. He'd have been caught almost immediately if this was today. This Moscow, Idaho killer did his homework at the very least and it's obvious that albeit a risky attack, it was planned and not an impulsive attack that Bundy would often do.

Is your point about Bundy that he would be caught quickly today because of DNA? Or something else? Because he's a planner, I would surmise that he would have adjusted to the times. I disagree with your point about risk.

I agree that some killers are smart enough to limit risk. Some can control their impulses. And some are opportunists. Bjt many killers who plan murders have antisocial tendencies, which include risk taking, impulsiveness and manipulation. Thrill seeking can a key element when you are killing for the love of the game. I say this as someone who has sat in the room with many people with Antisocial Personality Disorder, including psychopaths. When they tell their stories about their crimes they often revel in their risk taking, limit testing and when they almost get caught. They also often insert themselves in investigations, which carries enormous risk.

 

[Sachi]

"There are now six detectives from MPD, 62 FBI agents, 13 Idaho State Police investigators and 15 uniformed troopers assisting with community patrols and forensic experts working through the painstaking task of processing evidence recovered from the scene. "
snipped from :

New surveillance photo shows Idaho students in bar on night of murder

Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen were in downtown Moscow hours before their deaths. The leaked surveillance photo was taken from the Corner Club bar at 1.32am.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Thora_Jay]

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

I read the article a few times looking where it states that the campus parking record was pulled because of Fox News following comments here on Websleuths and I do not see that. Can you please point out where Fox News states that they pulled the campus parking records because of this Website by name?

 

[PrairieWind]

I agree. Though I was not personally involved in Greek life, family members were and I got the impression that it was mainly about integrating into a social circle while away from home and on your own for the first time. Like any other young adult groups, sometimes questionable things happen at Greek events. But this idea that it's a weird secret society that could cover up crime like the Mafia doesn't really match what I know of sororities and fraternities. MOO

I wasn't in a frat either, but had several close friends that were. Went to several frat parties. There was nothing secret as far as I know and they didn't discourage mingling with other frats. It seemed to be about being a part of something and then also later having access to the fraternity's networking abilities after graduation. I can't imagine any of those guys covering up murder.

 

[Msl1966]

Or it might not have been deliberately omitted? Maybe one cell was accidentally overwritten at some point? I don’t think it says it’s been deliberately excluded?

Or if it has been redacted, there’s only one with the plate type ‘personalized’ too, maybe it gives away some additional identifying information that would lead them to exclude it?

Students who are children of law enforcement, judges, etc. can be exempt from a school’s public record information request. Possibly that is why.

 

[Ozoner]

So I keep trying to find cases that parallel our case here, and the only one that comes close is that of the Grangegorman Killings. Of course, there are big differences, too, but it's a solo perp (Mark Nash) who murdered 2 and left 1 alive by knifing in this small Irish village. So not a quadruple murder, but a double murder and possible intent to kill everyone in the house. Some sexual motivations, too. But what I found interesting is that, after he killed again:



Whew. So this guy went and blended in again (until he didn't and was finally caught after another set of horrific murders, also with a knife).

I am not sure what to call Nash but PsychoKiller comes to mind (he was convicted). Here's the wiki:

Grangegorman killings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What were your criteria for a parallel case? What stands out to me about this case is that there was not only no sexual assault but nothing to indicate a sexual motivation (at least not based on any information released by LE).

In the Grangegorman murders, one victim's genitalia had been mutilated, so that is clear evidence of a sexual motivation. In a previous thread, I mentioned the stabbing death of sixteen-year-old Chantelle Rowe and her two parents. All three of them were stabbed to death in their home by an incel named Jason Downie who had become sexually obsessed with Chantelle. Chantelle was raped as she lay bleeding to death, so the sexual motivation was obvious there as well.

Jealous Scot Jason Downie jailed for killing Australian girl and parents

A jealous Scot who brutally murdered a teenager and her parents after she spurned his advances is jailed for at least 35 years.

www.bbc.com

I am still trying to find a case where multiple people were stabbed in their home by an intruder without there being any clear evidence of a sexual motivation or of robbery.

My hunch on this case is that one of the girls on the third floor was targeted by an incel who fantasized a relationship with her and then experienced a narcissistic injury upon being rejected.

It will not surprise me if I'm eventually proved wrong regarding the motive, but I am convinced that the murderer was not a current or former boyfriend of one of the victims. I think that this perp is someone who has never had a long-term relationship (and has probably never even gotten a second date with a girl). I doubt he's had any sexual experiences with women unless he managed to take advantage of women who were intoxicated.

 

[Turtletxn]

So I keep trying to find cases that parallel our case here, and the only one that comes close is that of the Grangegorman Killings. Of course, there are big differences, too, but it's a solo perp (Mark Nash) who murdered 2 and left 1 alive by knifing in this small Irish village. So not a quadruple murder, but a double murder and possible intent to kill everyone in the house. Some sexual motivations, too. But what I found interesting is that, after he killed again:



Whew. So this guy went and blended in again (until he didn't and was finally caught after another set of horrific murders, also with a knife).

I am not sure what to call Nash but PsychoKiller comes to mind (he was convicted). Here's the wiki:

Grangegorman killings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Richard Speck killed 8 student nurses in Chicago, July 14, 1966. This was the case that came to mind for me, but is not a direct comparison.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

We've been asked as to whether we will allow the leaked image of the girls talking with the individual at the Corner Club before they left for the Grub Truck. Half the true crime sleuthing world has probably seen the leaked image by now, so it is allowed for reasonable discussion.

Just because the girls are talking to one of many individuals in a popular public venue does not make that person a POI or suspect. This person could be totally innocent and, as they have not been officially named POI or suspect, we won't allow him to be publicly sleuthed or dragged through the mud with direct or indirect accusations. Members can sleuth away all they like behind the scenes, in private or in group conversation with other members, but NO public sleuthing of that person, attempts to publicly name or identify name him or post any personal or identifying information.

Post respectfully and responsibly. Any questions, jump off any post to Report and ask your question.

Thanks !!

 

[MrsWatson]

Didn't Ethan's brother belong to the same fraternity?

All this talk about something happening at the frat related to E and X and being secretive about it. How would that work if Ethan's brother is an active member and was there that night?

 

[FlamingoLady]

And I'll bet the person who "forgot" that small detail and was allowed to bend the rules...gets allowances like that from others, as well. Just a hunch. IMO.

While that doesn't mean they are a murderer, I would be suspicious if I were LE.

How do we account for the forms with no "primary contact" information filled out? How did those get through? I would imagine it would be more likely to forget a plate number when filling out an online form than forgetting who was actually responsible for the car. ETA: I'm assuming it was an online form. Maybe not.

 

[TIGER0822]

I had high hopes an arrest was near. Unless the Police are updating us to deliberately with misinformation to imply they are no closer to solving this (to mislead the killer, which I hope is the case). It looks like they are back to square one.

Idaho murders: Police issue new appeal for information in stabbing deaths of 4 college students

 

[JohnBull]

From what I can gather, this would be like stabbing a sack of wheat on the ground with not a lot of splatter. Mind you, the perpetrator must have known this prior somehow. It would appear some premeditated planning, all done when they were asleep in my opinion. The victims at their most vulnerable point.
AIMOO

I don't think it would be particularly bloody at the outset. I think the blood would be contained in the thoracic cavity until the sheer volume of it caused it to spill out of the wound. It's the slashing-type injury that produces a gaping incision which causes blood to come spurting or gushing from a severed vein or artery. In the present instance I don't think we have that kind of injury.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

So I keep trying to find cases that parallel our case here, and the only one that comes close is that of the Grangegorman Killings. Of course, there are big differences, too, but it's a solo perp (Mark Nash) who murdered 2 and left 1 alive by knifing in this small Irish village. So not a quadruple murder, but a double murder and possible intent to kill everyone in the house. Some sexual motivations, too. But what I found interesting is that, after he killed again:



Whew. So this guy went and blended in again (until he didn't and was finally caught after another set of horrific murders, also with a knife).

I am not sure what to call Nash but PsychoKiller comes to mind (he was convicted). Here's the wiki:

Grangegorman killings - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes uncanny similarity. And the fact it was an off the cuff murder that seemed so whimsical while packing a knife around. Who knows how long he fantasized about it before acting though.

Creepiest part is he stood over sleeping survivor's bed while she slept but spared her.

 

[hopewell]

Moo, in all likelihood, LE may have an idea as to who the owner of the Hyundai Elantra owing to their recent interviews and press releases which was more informative but remained vague at best. It’s interesting that LE is still looking for the occupants of the vehicle yet both Chief Fry and Officer Snell’s very recent interviews fails to mention the car, at the very least, the whole interview were about their search for context, perhaps to reconstruct an order of “event”. These recent interviews grants them an opportunity to share their inquisition into the “context”, not the car, or the perp.

I sincerely hope you are correct here, but the most recent press release doesn't ask for context about the car nor does it change any language about or lessen the sense of urgency towards locating the car and/or its occupant(s).

"Progress continues to locate the white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra believed to be in the immediate area of the King Road residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case and have identified over 22,000 vehicles. If you know of, or own, a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this specific vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line"

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24989/12-27-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

Moo, If LE have absolutely nothing, they would have release a video (imo, they have seen a video evidence of the car being in the immediate area) but they have yet to release digital evidence or at least an image of the actual car. The Hyundai Elantra pictures they were willing to distribute was a standard stock portrait of the car model, make and year, which would have the descriptions and features of the car in question. There are several unverified footages which were circulated soon after their announcement but the real footage of the car in question hasn’t been release by Le. Moo, they’re telling us that it’s more important to keep whatever images or video evidence they have out of public. One would think that sharing an actual video of the Elantra would encourage possible witnesses to send in a valuable tip, it’s apparent that’s not their priority. Moo, my apologies for being redundant, but I thought it’s important to reiterate that LE is on a mission of collecting digital evidence. Their methods thus far is developing a theory to get the full context of how the murder occurred, they believe that the missing “context” will lead them to a circumstantial links pointing to their POI.

I too have an issue with them not releasing actual footage of the car. I hesitate, however, to make any assumptions as to why. There are all kinds of reasons they wouldn't release actual footage even if they don't know who the car belongs to. The most important indication to me that they don't know whose car it is is that they disclosed the car to the public and are asking for assistance in locating it and/or the occupant(s). They simply wouldn't do that if they knew or suspected they knew who was driving it. Why clog up their tip lines with tens of thousands of unnecessary calls if they suspect they know whose car it is? Why state publicly that they have to sort through 22,000 registered Elantras to try to find the one? That makes no sense to me.

Moo, there are various cases when LE lacks sufficient information to uncover a poi, thus releasing critical information such as DNA phenotyping and behavioral analysis maybe beneficial to their investigation. They did none of the above, they probably have an idea as to who they should be focusing on. In addition, I believe they have a DNA as they stated previously in several interviews and press releases summarizing number of physical evidence collected. Thus far, their inquiries have been about tracing the steps before, during and after the murder (time, locations, video evidence of any kind between those time indicated by LE), their query largely focuses on digital evidence. Perhaps they’re eliminating possibilities and validating events hence they were able to clear some people close to the victims.

Maybe I’m more optimistic.

Moo.

Chief Fry appeared to suggest in yesterday's official video interview release that DNA hasn't been received yet. Behavioral analysis can be either beneficial or detrimental, depending on who the recipients of said analysis are. Could you imagine the number of "tips" they would get from a generalized profile of a case that has received global coverage (and sleuthing)?

My opinion.