ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

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So do we have any idea how the killer excited the house? I would think he would almost have to be dripping blood and leaving a trail which way he excited. Even if he managed not to cut himself would not the knife or his clothes leave droplets of the victims blood on the floor as he left?

Guess he could have cleaned up as he was leaving. But I imagine le did luminale testing for blood and could still see where it was cleaned up.

What do you think?
The victims were stabbed most likely horizontal in their beds, with blankets covering them.

The attacker might not have seen any blood.

"Autopsies were conducted on November 17th. The Latah County Coroner confirmed the identity of the four murdered individuals and their cause and manner of death as homicide by stabbing. The coroner stated the four victims were likely asleep, some had defensive wounds, and each was stabbed multiple times."
 
Yeah, it looks great. WayBackMachine still has the page of the Zillow listing.

Sadly from some of the info I have seen online I’m afraid there may be individuals out there who want to purchase it and turn it into some type of tourists attraction.

Very distasteful in my opinion. Hopefully zoning laws would prevent something like that if it were to happen. ALL SPECULATION and my opinion.
 
SPECULATION, THEORIES AHEAD. JMO.

Yes. First of all, I've lived on college campuses for a total of about 20 years, and worked on them for a total of about 40 years. Large and small colleges/universities, public and private.

LONG POST incoming - but I've synthesized so much of what many of you have been writing over the past couple of days - you'll see that I"m using many of the hypotheses here, which kind of clicked together Lego-style for me, with this story.
----
It's always the case that there are longterm hangers-on, who pretend to be students, on every college campus. It's particularly common right now, IMO.

Heck, some of the scariest moments of teaching have to do with some individual being in class and they aren't students!

It's actually difficult to detect in larger lecture classes. Each time it's happened to me, there's been some specific behavior that this person is exhibiting that made me worry/wonder about them and I'd have to do things to get their names (and sometimes, they'd disappear before or immediately after my "investigation" - whereas no other students even notice that I did a pop quiz and then walked around and specifically collected the papers by hand.

At larger schools (U of Id is definitely not tiny), these students can blend in and hang on for years.

I believe that the Elantra belongs to a relative of one of these people.

It was never registered properly for campus use. The person lives in on-campus housing (likely a Greek house, as all the principals in this case were associated with a Greek house), and may be seen as an Elder Brother and as we know, the brothers at the house are not going to turn such a person into housing authorities. Food is no problem for them, in this situation. Some have girlfriends in the house if it's co-ed housing, so they kind of share those rooms off the record. We do not have fraternities on campus where I work right now, but we have them off-campus and I have my students do papers on their residences using social mapping techniques and so I know that every fraternity has at least 1-2 of these people, which seems normal to the members and which they regard as a kind of assistance if they can't launch themselves after graduation.

Thing is, some of these people linger for years and never graduate. Students come and go and may not realize this, but staff at the universities, including police, usually know of them. It's an area like underage drinking or noise complaints - no real push to put a stop to it. Unless the person does something really bad.

There's been an increase in such students at many colleges. It's a form of homelessness or being indigent, but the people who meet these men do not realize it, as they dress and act like students. They are unable to move on from college life, they won't move on, they are often regarded as BMOC (Big Men On Campus). BTW, I know of no women in this category except a couple of girlfriends who lived irregularly with their boyfriends - but they were students). I know about them most when I investigate cheating - it's often one of these students who has been collecting copies of exams (mostly given online these days) and is selling them/distributing them with answers to their housemates.

Anyway, such students are often trouble. So that was one of my first thoughts.

They are well versed at avoiding and defying authority, was my second thought. They are jealous and suspicious of real students, but hide it fairly well. Nearly every physical fight I've witnessed or been involved in recording/adjudicating involved one of these non-students. They usually claim they are about to enroll again, or they enroll every 3-4 semesters, constantly fail to complete. BTW, the federal government has put into place modest nation-wide measures to try and prevent these characters from continuing to get student loans AND to force repayment under some circumstances - if they can find them. Some of these non-students actually run large scams involving stealing identity and registering under different names at various other colleges than the one they are living at - thereby occasionally grabbing some money from an online university or college. At my college, we now have about 5 current restraining orders against such men because their behaviors ended up with criminal prosecution and they violated a local order not to come on campus. One of them has been sent to another state for his parole, because he won't stop coming on campus. He has come on campus armed.

This person I am describing cannot destroy the Elantra because their relative (or other person from whom they borrowed) would notice and might just be the type to put 2 and 2 together. These students cannot go home because their families have had it with their behavior (they steal from their families - and sometimes even brag about it). They steal from their dorm mates and house mates, too. They steal from the library too.

I believe this person is University related because LE has mostly received tips from and interviewed people from the University.

I'll bet professors have been interviewed, but also students from every single house/dorm associated with the victims and their social life. So not just Sigma Chi but also SAE, the two Pi houses (sororities) and any other place where they had friends or acquaintances.

Patterns have emerged. The type of individual I'm talking about will certainly have been mentioned by more than one person and LE surely will have asked, point blank, whether other students know of any such person - an older person pretending to be a student and perhaps using tactics of intimidation will be mentioned, and if several people mention the same guy, he's gotta be a POI.

I think one of these men has been associated with the Elantra by video or by testimony. The police also see the Elantra near the house on the night of the murders. Elantra is back out of town and at the house of the relative (who has likely been talked to, because I think they tracked it down).

The murderer - and perhaps an accomplice or unwitting tag-along on that night - went to that relative's house to return the car, clean up, and stay for Thanksgiving. Caught a ride with someone to come back, to be close to the crime scene and, as several here have suggested, see whether his own views of what LE is going to do are actually coming to pass. The car would still contain DNA from the victims.

This profile is based on whatever cases I could find that are remotely similar, and on other university murders that I know about. This person *could* have a part time job with the university in some capacity, may involve night work. This person uses university facilities as if they are entitled to them, but will have no transcripted credit-bearing classes for the past year or two (they may occasionally enroll, but fail to finish or the transcript will record a withdrawal or a fail). They may be lying to their families about still being in college (IME, this type of person is really volatile, scared and often suicidal - and to me, a suicidal student is always one that's capable of harming others as well, because they are constantly contemplating the great tabu against killing humans - they've decided that some humans deserve death, and they have both suicidal and homicidal fantasies). That's why when committing heinous crimes, they have no fear in the moment of being caught. Afterwards, they may find that being homicidal suits them better psychologically than being suicidal - which is another reason they are so scary.

As an aside, when I learned through MSM that there were animal mutilations in 2017 (associated with university life, let's just say - and the victims of the carcass dumpings were targeted), I realized that would make this person about 3-4 years older than our victims, if they started this behavior a couple of years after arriving.

Now, my whole story could be wrong - but LE has a similar story about someone, right now. I'm convinced of it. They know that this same person whose name has been coming up has some kind of run-ins with law, maybe back in high school. They have warned and talked to his family. He's feeling increasingly cornered, but they know where he is. It's essential that the extra FBI agents go to the homes of vacationing students to talk to every person who knows this person (or persons, if there are more than one).

This person is acquainted with every person who was killed. He lives nearby. He fits all the psychological criteria that people here on WS keep mentioning (jealous, rejected, fantasizer, angry and perhaps fearful) Scared humans who are about to be caught for something are dangerous. And it's more than just being turned in to university authorities for leaving without permission on campus. This person is likely also a petty drug dealer (as others here have hypothesized). So it all clicked for me. He would have been in the house before, but is not a boyfriend or an ex. Women on campus have had negative encounters with him already. He has likely approached at least one of the women romantically and was rebuffed (21 year old women often think a 24-25 year guy is a bit too old). He likely tries to hit on the 18-19 year olds, though. If he's around for so many years, he gets to watch the women he wanted to date move on to other men. This is highly displeasing to him.

If I am at all close, then this murderer knows that he's in the cross-hairs, although he may believe he's one of a handful and has almost certainly started rumors/stories to implicate others, or when interrogated, he implicated others. It's a dangerous time in the investigation because if that Elantra has been located, the instant LE moves in with a search warrant, the gig is up and this killer will know he's going down. If the owner of the Elantra cooperates, though, it can all be done without him finding out, at least not immediately.

As for the "context" quest by LE, I feel it fits with this theory. If this guy is who I think it is, there's definitely context - and from that night and from that weekend. His housemates are probably used to him coming and going at all hours, borrowing various cars, etc, but something still was amiss/relevant that happened on Nov 12 and if no one saw him on Nov 13, that needs to be established. I figure he told at least a few people he was "going home" for Thanksgiving, so no one would have thought much about it, and he very well did arrive at some relative's house on the 13th - and stay for Thanksgiving.

Weakest part of my theory is any good hypothesis about where this guy is right now. Could be on the run. Could be back at school (my guess, as this guy knows nothing else and can't function outside the life he's made at university). Could be at home with family. Could be staying with friends' family. LE surely are at the point where they either know exactly where he is (my guess) or are about to locate him,

I've read every post on this thread and the last one - and I appreciate the opportunity to write all of this out, using so much of what you all have been saying.
Brilliant! You have given a lot of great info that I hope someone similar to you has contacted LE. As I read this, I thought of all of the kids who my husband and I have met through our grandkids. We lived in Florida on 3 golf courses and 12 miles from the ocean, so had extra kids visiting us. None that fit your description of this kind of person fortunately, but kids who seem to be available to come visit us or hang around the kids apartments after they either quit going to classes or flunked out. They all have a story.
 
The thing that makes make believe the killer is somewhat related is the fact he decided to go in with five cars in front. The risk of someone getting away of being attacked yourself would be gigantic. He must have felt a lot of anger or rage. Really feels like a do or die action.

IMO the killer(s) were able to 'read the house' to determine whether anyone was awake. I am thinking this wasn't something the killer (s) thought of that night, but something that had been building - perhaps watching the comings and goings at the house, the lights, the timing, etc. Perhaps working up the courage to act. MOO
 
I've just assumed J never answered the texts and calls because he was with another female that night. You aren't going to pause what you're doing to talk to your ex. Won't go over well.. MOO
It would be interesting to see where everyone's phones were at the time of the murders.

I take it, FBI attained warrants for social media and pulled all the audio keyword metadata out of the social media metadata silos for the evening?

Those that had phones turned off go on the suspect list
 
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If there was in fact a car used, my thinking would to leave town heading nw in what becomes Sand Road. I've asked this before but are there any cams along this route that anyone is aware of past the RV park?
Good thought, I wonder if any locals on here have any insight on that area?
 
Sadly from some of the info I have seen online I’m afraid there may be individuals out there who want to purchase it and turn it into some type of tourists attraction.

Very distasteful in my opinion. Hopefully zoning laws would prevent something like that if it were to happen. ALL SPECULATION and my opinion.
I can't imagine it will ever be anything other than what it is, residential rental. It is a good investment property for the owners.
 
The thing that makes make believe the killer is somewhat related is the fact he decided to go in with five cars in front. The risk of someone getting away of being attacked yourself would be gigantic. He must have felt a lot of anger or rage. Really feels like a do or die action.
It is extremely brazen to enter a house full of people, but if he stalked, took notes, figured out a pattern for their activities, and planned this for weeks even months. Psychopaths like taking risks that non-psychopaths would avoid.
Your average person would NOT want to take such a huge risk, a killer however might if he seeks a thrill from doing so.
 
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Referring to your mention of patterns I too have been thinking that. However if they do happen let’s say hypothetically dead coyotes placed around frat homes or girls panties being tampered with etc etc those are not facts considered ‘related to this case’ so are off limits for discussion. Is that correct?
I have been wondering about the dead coyote incidents, the 2nd one in particular which was apparently not related to the first and remains unsolved as far as I can tell. This article is presumably considered MSM: Four Greek houses near U of Idaho wake up to dead coyotes on doorsteps
I apologize if this is not allowed but I can't figure out why it wouldn't be.
 
In my opinion, there is no chance that these murders were related to drugs in any way.

I still think that these killings were done for either revenge or pleasure.

If it was revenge, it could have been anything, but my first hunch is that a narcissistic incel fantasized a relationship with one of the girls and then decided to punish her for rejecting or ignoring him.

If the killings were done for pleasure, then at least one of the victims must have caught the eye of a predator at some point, but it may be impossible to find any link between the killer and the victims.

Revenge and thrill killers use drugs, too though. It's not like they are mutually exclusive. IME, steroids are most popular among former student athletes, a handful of gym-obsessed young men, police and military.

Why would a narcissistic incel punish 3 girls and 1 guy? Do you think he went in hoping to find just his one feminine target, alone? Do you think he ended up having to kind of "wing it" because others were there? He could see the cars out front, so he knew the house had several people in it. Revenge, to me, doesn't include a plan, however spontaneous, to kill everyone who might be nearby or a witness.

I do think there's going to be a link, for sure. Mostly because 4 victims, a knife, and the apparent rapidity of the crime.
 
Thanks! I read that he lives in Troy but that's pretty close to Moscow.


I could be wrong, but I thought he was there that day, and remember hearing something about him arriving in a couple hours. I am almost sure he was home when he got the call.
 
Was she really set to graduate in December? It seems odd that she didn't really seem to live there during her last semester. Could this be another personal detail she kept to herself?

Just bought a car, set to graduate early in December (as opposed to May/June?), going to travel in Europe in January, then set to move to Texas in February?

Here's my big question K planned to graduate early and moved out in October. Where was she living while she finished her last semester? In Texas? Taking online classes?
Finished all her credits early?
At home with her parents? Staying with friends or with her ex?
I have not seen these questions answered in MSM but curious about who she lived with and met those past months. Could she have attracted a stalker? What about Austin? Where was she planning to live? and did she meet an unsavory character down in Texas? or at her new job?
 
SPECULATION, THEORIES AHEAD. JMO.

Yes. First of all, I've lived on college campuses for a total of about 20 years, and worked on them for a total of about 40 years. Large and small colleges/universities, public and private.

LONG POST incoming - but I've synthesized so much of what many of you have been writing over the past couple of days - you'll see that I"m using many of the hypotheses here, which kind of clicked together Lego-style for me, with this story.
----
It's always the case that there are longterm hangers-on, who pretend to be students, on every college campus. It's particularly common right now, IMO.

Heck, some of the scariest moments of teaching have to do with some individual being in class and they aren't students!

It's actually difficult to detect in larger lecture classes. Each time it's happened to me, there's been some specific behavior that this person is exhibiting that made me worry/wonder about them and I'd have to do things to get their names (and sometimes, they'd disappear before or immediately after my "investigation" - whereas no other students even notice that I did a pop quiz and then walked around and specifically collected the papers by hand.

At larger schools (U of Id is definitely not tiny), these students can blend in and hang on for years.

I believe that the Elantra belongs to a relative of one of these people.

It was never registered properly for campus use. The person lives in on-campus housing (likely a Greek house, as all the principals in this case were associated with a Greek house), and may be seen as an Elder Brother and as we know, the brothers at the house are not going to turn such a person into housing authorities. Food is no problem for them, in this situation. Some have girlfriends in the house if it's co-ed housing, so they kind of share those rooms off the record. We do not have fraternities on campus where I work right now, but we have them off-campus and I have my students do papers on their residences using social mapping techniques and so I know that every fraternity has at least 1-2 of these people, which seems normal to the members and which they regard as a kind of assistance if they can't launch themselves after graduation.

Thing is, some of these people linger for years and never graduate. Students come and go and may not realize this, but staff at the universities, including police, usually know of them. It's an area like underage drinking or noise complaints - no real push to put a stop to it. Unless the person does something really bad.

There's been an increase in such students at many colleges. It's a form of homelessness or being indigent, but the people who meet these men do not realize it, as they dress and act like students. They are unable to move on from college life, they won't move on, they are often regarded as BMOC (Big Men On Campus). BTW, I know of no women in this category except a couple of girlfriends who lived irregularly with their boyfriends - but they were students). I know about them most when I investigate cheating - it's often one of these students who has been collecting copies of exams (mostly given online these days) and is selling them/distributing them with answers to their housemates.

Anyway, such students are often trouble. So that was one of my first thoughts.

They are well versed at avoiding and defying authority, was my second thought. They are jealous and suspicious of real students, but hide it fairly well. Nearly every physical fight I've witnessed or been involved in recording/adjudicating involved one of these non-students. They usually claim they are about to enroll again, or they enroll every 3-4 semesters, constantly fail to complete. BTW, the federal government has put into place modest nation-wide measures to try and prevent these characters from continuing to get student loans AND to force repayment under some circumstances - if they can find them. Some of these non-students actually run large scams involving stealing identity and registering under different names at various other colleges than the one they are living at - thereby occasionally grabbing some money from an online university or college. At my college, we now have about 5 current restraining orders against such men because their behaviors ended up with criminal prosecution and they violated a local order not to come on campus. One of them has been sent to another state for his parole, because he won't stop coming on campus. He has come on campus armed.

This person I am describing cannot destroy the Elantra because their relative (or other person from whom they borrowed) would notice and might just be the type to put 2 and 2 together. These students cannot go home because their families have had it with their behavior (they steal from their families - and sometimes even brag about it). They steal from their dorm mates and house mates, too. They steal from the library too.

I believe this person is University related because LE has mostly received tips from and interviewed people from the University.

I'll bet professors have been interviewed, but also students from every single house/dorm associated with the victims and their social life. So not just Sigma Chi but also SAE, the two Pi houses (sororities) and any other place where they had friends or acquaintances.

Patterns have emerged. The type of individual I'm talking about will certainly have been mentioned by more than one person and LE surely will have asked, point blank, whether other students know of any such person - an older person pretending to be a student and perhaps using tactics of intimidation will be mentioned, and if several people mention the same guy, he's gotta be a POI.

I think one of these men has been associated with the Elantra by video or by testimony. The police also see the Elantra near the house on the night of the murders. Elantra is back out of town and at the house of the relative (who has likely been talked to, because I think they tracked it down).

The murderer - and perhaps an accomplice or unwitting tag-along on that night - went to that relative's house to return the car, clean up, and stay for Thanksgiving. Caught a ride with someone to come back, to be close to the crime scene and, as several here have suggested, see whether his own views of what LE is going to do are actually coming to pass. The car would still contain DNA from the victims.

This profile is based on whatever cases I could find that are remotely similar, and on other university murders that I know about. This person *could* have a part time job with the university in some capacity, may involve night work. This person uses university facilities as if they are entitled to them, but will have no transcripted credit-bearing classes for the past year or two (they may occasionally enroll, but fail to finish or the transcript will record a withdrawal or a fail). They may be lying to their families about still being in college (IME, this type of person is really volatile, scared and often suicidal - and to me, a suicidal student is always one that's capable of harming others as well, because they are constantly contemplating the great tabu against killing humans - they've decided that some humans deserve death, and they have both suicidal and homicidal fantasies). That's why when committing heinous crimes, they have no fear in the moment of being caught. Afterwards, they may find that being homicidal suits them better psychologically than being suicidal - which is another reason they are so scary.

As an aside, when I learned through MSM that there were animal mutilations in 2017 (associated with university life, let's just say - and the victims of the carcass dumpings were targeted), I realized that would make this person about 3-4 years older than our victims, if they started this behavior a couple of years after arriving.

Now, my whole story could be wrong - but LE has a similar story about someone, right now. I'm convinced of it. They know that this same person whose name has been coming up has some kind of run-ins with law, maybe back in high school. They have warned and talked to his family. He's feeling increasingly cornered, but they know where he is. It's essential that the extra FBI agents go to the homes of vacationing students to talk to every person who knows this person (or persons, if there are more than one).

This person is acquainted with every person who was killed. He lives nearby. He fits all the psychological criteria that people here on WS keep mentioning (jealous, rejected, fantasizer, angry and perhaps fearful) Scared humans who are about to be caught for something are dangerous. And it's more than just being turned in to university authorities for leaving without permission on campus. This person is likely also a petty drug dealer (as others here have hypothesized). So it all clicked for me. He would have been in the house before, but is not a boyfriend or an ex. Women on campus have had negative encounters with him already. He has likely approached at least one of the women romantically and was rebuffed (21 year old women often think a 24-25 year guy is a bit too old). He likely tries to hit on the 18-19 year olds, though. If he's around for so many years, he gets to watch the women he wanted to date move on to other men. This is highly displeasing to him.

If I am at all close, then this murderer knows that he's in the cross-hairs, although he may believe he's one of a handful and has almost certainly started rumors/stories to implicate others, or when interrogated, he implicated others. It's a dangerous time in the investigation because if that Elantra has been located, the instant LE moves in with a search warrant, the gig is up and this killer will know he's going down. If the owner of the Elantra cooperates, though, it can all be done without him finding out, at least not immediately.

As for the "context" quest by LE, I feel it fits with this theory. If this guy is who I think it is, there's definitely context - and from that night and from that weekend. His housemates are probably used to him coming and going at all hours, borrowing various cars, etc, but something still was amiss/relevant that happened on Nov 12 and if no one saw him on Nov 13, that needs to be established. I figure he told at least a few people he was "going home" for Thanksgiving, so no one would have thought much about it, and he very well did arrive at some relative's house on the 13th - and stay for Thanksgiving.

Weakest part of my theory is any good hypothesis about where this guy is right now. Could be on the run. Could be back at school (my guess, as this guy knows nothing else and can't function outside the life he's made at university). Could be at home with family. Could be staying with friends' family. LE surely are at the point where they either know exactly where he is (my guess) or are about to locate him,

I've read every post on this thread and the last one - and I appreciate the opportunity to write all of this out, using so much of what you all have been saying.
10ofRods, I'm so glad you're on this board! This is a very intriguing angle, and thinking back to my college days about 'that weird guy who should've graduated years ago' (does every campus have one?) I could absolutely see this case panning out like this. (It's not exactly my particular theory, but it's adding new layers to what I've been thinking.) I agree that this crime wouldn't be unexpected if coming from this guy who's unable to live in the 'real world' beyond campus life and is aging beyond the age of a grad student and becoming increasingly out of place and despondent.
 
The victims were stabbed most likely horizontal in their beds, with blankets covering them.

The attacker might not have seen any blood.

"Autopsies were conducted on November 17th. The Latah County Coroner confirmed the identity of the four murdered individuals and their cause and manner of death as homicide by stabbing. The coroner stated the four victims were likely asleep, some had defensive wounds, and each was stabbed multiple times."
"some had defensive wounds". Also, their faces naturally weren't covered by blankets... he's seen blood. Maybe not in large quantities but still. On the flip side, it was night and there's not much light on the back side of the house. We don't even know if the christmas lights were switched on or off when tje Police arrived. If he was wearing dark clothing this would further reduce the chance of anyone noticing the blood stains. To anyone neighbour it would simply look like E going back home after visiting X late at night. My take is that he entered and exited via glass back door, went up the hill, possibly to the parking lot. Not many people there, seems like a safest route to take in and out with a clear view of the side/part of the building that interested him.
 
Does anyone recall whether the Kings Rd house has been known as a party house for quite some time, or whether it was a recently earned label? I was just wondering if it's reasonable to assume that everyone moved in expecting lots of parties and noise or not. I doubt any of us know the answer to this second question, but I'm also curious about whether anyone who wanted to could come party, or whether the house was only open to certain people. I was just thinking that being excluded can cause a lot of resentment. The average person wouldn't commit mass murder over it, but that doesn't mean that no one would.
There are several known-for-decades-to-be-party-houses in that neighborhood. The King Rd house is arguably the most iconic one.

Back when dinosaurs walked the earth, I attended several parties there. I was never part of the Greek system but attended parties when the off-campus house was occupied variously by a fraternity, a sorority, and just groups of students.

Around town, lots of people who never attended UI have attended parties there over the years. It wasn’t exclusive. At all.

However, I have no personal knowledge of whether or not things changed in the last 5+/- years. Moo.
 
Good thought, I wonder if any locals on here have any insight on that area?
I’ve wondered the same thing. I find it really unusual that I’ve yet to read or see anything on social media about the girls friends or sorority sisters or locals even commenting on their inside knowledge. I mean I’ve seen the former roommate theory and fraternity ones… but no one actually close to four victims.

Really makes me curious as to why? Especially considering the age of the victims and their friends and love of social media.
 
The car was likely swimming in blood. Seller could have ‘sold it’.
Who within 100 miles of Moscow would buy a 2011-2013 white Elantra since the search for it was first reported all over the country, and who, anywhere is going to buy one swimming in blood? If someone had bought such a car, minus the blood, before hearing about the search for the car, but after the murders, it is extremely likely that they would have notified LE of that information, as soon as they heard it was being sought.

Having said that, my thoughts are that the car has not been destroyed, or even painted or wrapped/unwrapped. It most likely just has not yet been found...

...or it has been. JMO

ETA I do understand that the implication is that someone destroyed or somehow got rid of it and just claimed to have sold it. but I feel like it is still in the killer's possession, or the possession of whomever the killer borrowed it from.
 
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