ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[Cardinal47]

upthread someone said 4/10 of a mile. That is quite possible for a 2 1/2 yr old to toddle that far.

Now I have two more questions for anybody to answer. How long do you think it would take a 2 year old to walk 4/10 of a mile and how long after he disappeared did the cadavar dogs hit on the reservoir?

What I am wondering is could he have walked up there, fallen in and had cadavar dogs scent him in that box of time? TIA

I'm still thinking the creek next to the campsite would be where he would head.

 

[concernedmother]

I think I heard the dad on NG say Deorr could walk pretty good. Anything could have caught his attention. A rabbit. A squirrel. He could have went after it trying to catch it. I think they will find the little guy in one of those bodies of water. jmo

 

[Cardinal47]

Children at that young age are all so different. Some scared and like to stay by mom and others you put them down and off they go never looking back.

I had five and none of them alike.

 

[katydid23]

Children at that young age are all so different. Some scared and like to stay by mom and others you put them down and off they go never looking back.

I had five and none of them alike.

We used to go into the wilderness quite a bit when my kids were young. My parents had a small log cabin on US Forest land near a lake in Lassen National Park.

My son was a 'clinger'. He was like my shadow and we could never imagine him running off anywhere. But then our girl was born and she was frighteningly the opposite. She was a fearless adventurer. She went headfirst, feet first into the unknown. I never took my eyes off her but still managed to 'lose her' twice for a matter of minutes. Very scary. But I never did let anyone else watch her because I knew they had no idea what a 'runner' she could be.

 

[Jovi Girl]

This is the second reminder in less than 30 minutes.

This child's parents are victims. LE has indicated they are not suspect. Insinuations or speculation about parental involvement in Deorr's disappearance is off-limits unless/until LE or MSM release information to the contrary.

Sorry I think I said something unkind. It was speculation .

 

[MyBelle]

Now I have two more questions for anybody to answer. How long do you think it would take a 2 year old to walk 4/10 of a mile and how long after he disappeared did the cadavar dogs hit on the reservoir?

What I am wondering is could he have walked up there, fallen in and had cadavar dogs scent him in that box of time? TIA

I'm still thinking the creek next to the campsite would be where he would head.

A 2-year-old would take forever to walk that far because they stop and inspect everything. It took my husband and I nearly an hour to walk around a single block in Chicago with three toddlers all under the age of 3. One liked to pick up every twig. One was distracted and wanted to visit every dog behind a fence and the other was focused on anything that caught his eye by the curb. It was akin to herding cats.

JMO

 

[teeandcee]

Cadaver dogs are pretty impressive! Bolded part pertains to this situation. I didn't know some organs and cells were still functioning 3 hours after death. Wow.


In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

 

[Penelope]

Dear Websleuthers –
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist or crazy person, but I have been interested in Bigfoot and mysterious stories all my life. A few years ago I hear about a former law enforcement employee, David Paulides, who has spent a number or years investigating people who disappear in the wilds of North America, especially in Americas National Parks and the areas surrounding them. When I looked up the location of the campground where Deorr went missing, I realized it was located in the Salmon Challis National Forest… and this is pretty rugged territory.

A series of books have been written by Paulides about this topic, the first one was called Missing-411. I have read that book and have ordered others to read. After reading his first book and watching him talk on youtube, I don't have a good feeling about this boy's disappearance.

Paulides is a Bigfoot researcher, but the way he writes these books is to tell the story of each disappearance by stating the facts and trying to find common elements in each of the incidents without getting too much into theorizing what has happened to the person or child other than stating what has been ruled out by him or others. Some incidents only have minimal facts; with others he has been able to actually interview the families of the loved ones as well as park staff and/or the investigators involved in the initial disappearance.

Many of the missing are children – some are found alive, some are found deceased, and some are never found or small remains (bones and clothing) are stumbled upon by hikers years later.

In a number of the cases I have read with missing children involved, many of them are about the same age as little Deorr. Time after time in Paulides experience investigating the disappearances of small children in wilderness areas, he says that all that needs to happen is to have an adult lose sight of the child for a minute or two and the child can vanish forever. The ones that are found alive or deceased, are oftentimes found in weird locations that are abnormally far from the place where the child got lost - so far, in fact, that people are left scratching their heads about how a 2 or 3-year old could have climbed uphill that far or have hiked through the woods over a number or miles.

Also, he does say that some of the people missing from National Parks may never find their way onto missing persons or missing children databases. If you wish to hear more about this, you can find lots of youtube videos of him discussing these missing person cases.

Click here for Paulides' Can Am Project website:
http://www.canammissing.com/page/page/8396197.htm

Here is the information on his Bigfoot Research website:
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/missing_411.html

Here is the "cluster map" from his first book that shows some of the areas where the most disappearances have occurred.
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/163860/images/BIGFOOT.JPG

Here's some information from his website. Even though it promotes his books, the information is based on his years of research:

A tip from a national park ranger led to 3+ years and a 7000 hour investigative effort into understanding the stories behind people who have vanished. The book chronicles children, adults and the elderly who disappeared, sometimes in the presence of friends and relatives. As Search and Rescue personnel exhaust leads and places to search, relatives start to believe kidnappings and abductions have occurred. The belief by the relatives is not an isolated occurrence; it replicates itself time after time, case after case across North America.
The research depicts 28 clusters of missing people across the continent, something that has never been exposed and was a shocking find to researchers. Topography does play a part into the age of the victims and certain clusters have specific age and sex consistency that is baffling. This is not a phenomenon that has been occurring in just the last few decades, clusters of missing people have been identified as far back as the 1800’s.
Some of the issues that are discussed in each edition:
• The National Park Service attitude toward missing people
• How specific factors in certain cases replicate themselves in different clusters
• Exposing cases involving missing children that aren’t on any national database
• Unusual behavior by bloodhounds/canines involved in the search process
• How storms, berries, swamps, briar patches, boulder fields and victim disabilities play a role in the disappearance
• The strategies of Search and Rescue personnel need to change under specific circumstances

 

[cvaldez1975]

my little is 2 years and 3 months. a month after his second borthday we took him camping. boy that kid is FAST he would take off running after his nieces and cousins (he has nieces a year or two older) i had to keep my eyes glued to him at all times.

Children at that young age are all so different. Some scared and like to stay by mom and others you put them down and off they go never looking back.

I had five and none of them alike.

 

[Elainera]

How far from the campsite is the reservoir? TIA

Seems with that babbling creek right there that is what would draw his attention. I remember when my children were young they loved being by any kind of water and would not walk far when water was right there to play with and in. Tadpoles, sticks and wet rocks were all a big draw to youngsters.

With that said the creek doesn't look deep and I am sure they went up and down that area looking for him.

The reservoir was said to be about 4/10 miles from the campsite - that's about 600 m I believe, for those who prefer the metric scale.

However, I have a question - wasn't the reservoir said to be higher up than the campsite? In which case, would a toddler really scramble uphill, would he even be able to see the water from the campsite?

Maybe I'm picturing this wrong.

 

[Elainera]

Dear Websleuthers –
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist or crazy person, but I have been interested in Bigfoot and mysterious stories all my life. A few years ago I hear about a former law enforcement employee, David Paulides, who has spent a number or years investigating people who disappear in the wilds of North America, especially in Americas National Parks and the areas surrounding them. When I looked up the location of the campground where Deorr went missing, I realized it was located in the Salmon Challis National Forest… and this is pretty rugged territory.

A series of books have been written by Paulides about this topic, the first one was called Missing-411. I have read that book and have ordered others to read. After reading his first book and watching him talk on youtube, I don't have a good feeling about this boy's disappearance.

Paulides is a Bigfoot researcher, but the way he writes these books is to tell the story of each disappearance by stating the facts and trying to find common elements in each of the incidents without getting too much into theorizing what has happened to the person or child other than stating what has been ruled out by him or others. Some incidents only have minimal facts; with others he has been able to actually interview the families of the loved ones as well as park staff and/or the investigators involved in the initial disappearance.

Many of the missing are children – some are found alive, some are found deceased, and some are never found or small remains (bones and clothing) are stumbled upon by hikers years later.

In a number of the cases I have read with missing children involved, many of them are about the same age as little Deorr. Time after time in Paulides experience investigating the disappearances of small children in wilderness areas, he says that all that needs to happen is to have an adult lose sight of the child for a minute or two and the child can vanish forever. The ones that are found alive or deceased, are oftentimes found in weird locations that are abnormally far from the place where the child got lost - so far, in fact, that people are left scratching their heads about how a 2 or 3-year old could have climbed uphill that far or have hiked through the woods over a number or miles.

Also, he does say that some of the people missing from National Parks may never find their way onto missing persons or missing children databases. If you wish to hear more about this, you can find lots of youtube videos of him discussing these missing person cases.

Click here for Paulides' Can Am Project website:
http://www.canammissing.com/page/page/8396197.htm

Here is the information on his Bigfoot Research website:
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/missing_411.html

Here is the "cluster map" from his first book that shows some of the areas where the most disappearances have occurred.
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/163860/images/BIGFOOT.JPG

Here's some information from his website. Even though it promotes his books, the information is based on his years of research:

So, David Paulides is saying these people were all taken by Bigfoot - or what? I don't quite understand the purpose of your post, although it sounds intriguing and I;m sure the book has a lot of interesting information. (Not trying to be critical, just wondering.)

 

[Purplepixii]

I agree. It's O/T but I raise mini goats and mini horses.

Also OT but they sound very cute! Do you have pics on here somewhere? [emoji176]

Back on topic, I really hope they find Deorr soon. I'm in & out of wifi for the next few days but I'll check in when I can - I really hope it's to read some good news

 

[Trident]

So, David Paulides is saying these people were all taken by Bigfoot - or what? I don't quite understand the purpose of your post, although it sounds intriguing and I;m sure the book has a lot of interesting information. (Not trying to be critical, just wondering.)

I'm not Penelope, but I have read all of Paulides books. He does NOT say anyone was taken by bigfoot, or give any other theories. He lets the reader draw their own conclusions. To be honest, I almost posted about his books because he's done a lot of research and one of the findings is that young children seem to go UPhill, contrary to what a body might think. I believe SAR say they would go down. He also gives examples of young children being found in the middle of dense thickets or many miles away, too many for them to have traveled in the time frame. Paulides said a lot of things about missing people, and I found his books fascinating, told me a lot of things I didn't know.

 

[concernedmother]

On NG last night they listed the wild animals that could be in the area and someone said the most likely one to take a child would be a bear. I've tried googling to see how far a bear will pack their prey but couldn't find anything. This is a horrible thought but what if a bear took him? They have been searching a 2 1/2 mi radius I guess thinking little Deorr couldn't have walked further. But how far could a bear have packed him? Maybe they need to expand the search. If he would have been taken by a wild animal there would be some blood evidence and I would assume there would be clothing remnants. Its not a place you want your mind to go to but a place that cant be completely ignored either. jmo

 

[jashrema]

The reservoir was said to be about 4/10 miles from the campsite - that's about 600 m I believe, for those who prefer the metric scale.

However, I have a question - wasn't the reservoir said to be higher up than the campsite? In which case, would a toddler really scramble uphill, would he even be able to see the water from the campsite?

Maybe I'm picturing this wrong.

That's my understanding from pics and direct statements from dad in interview. water is "up" the sides of hill or mountain. They were camping in what was described as a flat area, like the bottom of a bowl area. So they were on flat ground and when it stopped being flat, it went "Up" on all sides.

 

[Penelope]

So, David Paulides is saying these people were all taken by Bigfoot - or what? I don't quite understand the purpose of your post, although it sounds intriguing and I;m sure the book has a lot of interesting information. (Not trying to be critical, just wondering.)

No - Davis Paulides does not say that. He has purposely tried to keep any mention of Bigfoot out of the books. He does say that many of the disappearances are unexplained, and that there is a history of disappearances in National Parks and Forests that hasn't really been publicized as much as it should. What I got out of reading his book and in listening to his talks is the following:
- He is not sure what is going on other than that these disappearances have been happening in clusters since the 1800s.
- There is no National database for people who have gone missing in National Parks according to the National Parks Service - at least not one that is not accessible to the public.
- There are a lot more people that have gone missing than the general public is aware of.
- From what I can tell from what I have heard/read, it is rare that tracking dogs are able to locate the child/adult.
- That many times parents of children who go missing in National Parks believe that their child has been abducted or kidnapped and this belief will last a lifetime if the child or the child's remains are never recovered.
- As I stated before, these children go missing very quickly - you see them one minute and the next they are gone. It's like they are able to travel a distance more quickly that we think they can.
- That Deorr's disappearance follows the pattern of what he has found in the disappearance of children.
- That it would usually become apparent fairly quickly if the child was taken by a cougar or bear - there would be tracks or evidence.

IMO it is important that we are aware of these disappearances and the patterns. I hope this explains why I posted this information.

 

[teeandcee]

Those books sound fascinating. I'm putting them on my very long To Be Read list. Interesting that he says statistically they go uphill. I'd have never guessed but then I'm no energetic kid. My inclination is to follow the path of least resistance in moving my bulk around and that would be downhill.

 

[Penelope]

I'm not Penelope, but I have read all of Paulides books. He does NOT say anyone was taken by bigfoot, or give any other theories. He lets the reader draw their own conclusions. To be honest, I almost posted about his books because he's done a lot of research and one of the findings is that young children seem to go UPhill, contrary to what a body might think. I believe SAR say they would go down. He also gives examples of young children being found in the middle of dense thickets or many miles away, too many for them to have traveled in the time frame. Paulides said a lot of things about missing people, and I found his books fascinating, told me a lot of things I didn't know.

Yes, Trident. You are correct that Paulides has found in his research that young (and older) children often seem to go uphill, contrary what we might think. Also, as you stated, young children have been found in the middle of dense thickets or sometimes miles away - and sometimes without as many scratches as you would think they would have from fighting their way through the thick brush. That's why he feels that SARS and Park Rangers should re-evaluate how they search.

BTW - I almost hesitated to post about David and his research because of his connection to Bigfoot. However, I believe his work is important. I emailed him when I heard that Deorr was missing and he replied to my email saying that 300 people had already emailed him concerning this disappearance.

 

[bessie]

ADMIN NOTE: Any further speculation about the parents WILL result in a Time Out.

Chief deputy on missing boy's family: 'They're solid
KTVB, KTVB.COM 2:14 p.m. MDT July 16, 2015

[...]
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

 

[Penelope]

Those books sound fascinating. I'm putting them on my very long To Be Read list. Interesting that he says statistically they go uphill. I'd have never guessed but then I'm no energetic kid. My inclination is to follow the path of least resistance in moving my bulk around and that would be downhill.

If you do purchase one or some of his books, order from his website. He does not have a contract with Amazon to sell them. If you search for them on Amazon, the prices are incredibly inflated - sometimes $75 per book. I think he sells them for around $25 each and they are worth it. I have only read the first one, but was kind of disturbed by them because the disappearances of the children are heartbreaking and only a few have happy endings. But, the more you read, the more you are able to recognize patterns.

BTW - Paulides' books document case after case of missing children in parks or wilderness areas in the U.S., Canada and in other countries. As far as I can tell, it is very, very rarely found that parents had anything to do with these types of disappearances.