ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[steelman]

I don't know why it is such a stretch to think that the little guy simply walked right down one of the roads they came in on. If it's a gravel road, there wouldn't be much in the way of footprints. I think the whole problem here is the amount of time that passed between the parents leaving the camp and returning to it.
if it was 10-15 minutes, he couldn't have gone all that far. If it was 20-30 minutes, he could have gone quite a ways, out of earshot for sure. Obviously, once they discovered him missing they would have searched the immediate area around the camp and the reservoir.........in the meantime he continues to get further and further away. Next thing you know, 2 hours have passed and he has gotten farther and farther away from the camp with each passing minute.

Vehicles coming and going from the campsite during the search, may have obliterated any footprints without realizing it. I highly doubt when this started out that anyone would have believed that finding him was going to be all that difficult. I'm sure the original thought by LE was that an hour or two running around in the woods searching would reunite scared parents and son, and everybody would live happily ever after. That obviously hasn't happened.

It is somewhat discouraging that they haven't found a single trace of him during the searches, namely footprints. If initial search efforts, and vehicles coming and going superimposed tracks over the original footprints though, it would go a long way in explaining why.

I'm not going to get into the tracking dog stuff, because I think that is all just an urban myth anyway. Just recently a man ran of with a 14 year old girl up into the mountains of Virginia for over two weeks.
They were apparently camping out and living off the land the entire time. They were spotted here and there by the locals, but always vanished before police arrived. There was a "massive and exhaustive search" by both humans and canines in the area for over a week. Eventually a neighbor called in a tip that they were breaking into a trailer house to get food.

After they were eventually found it was revealed that they had traveled around by foot the entire time.
Two people, on foot, not bathing much or staying clean...........and the dogs never picked up a scent. What good are they ?

 

[Hatfield]

They both called. His call went through while the mother was on the line with the 911 operator. I imagine it went something like this... they both looked at their phones and saw reception was 1 bar. He jumped in the truck to get out in the open more and find better reception. She stayed at the camp and tried to make the call anyways. Her call went through and when he got better reception a couple minutes later, also called.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Thank you. I agree she must have stayed back at camp. Later on in the call around the 5:11 mark they review it again and it became clearer that only he jumped in the truck to run down the road. He says the 911 operator told him they had her on the other line. So that means she must have stayed back and was calling too.

 

[katydid23]

I always keep Sierra LaMars case in mind when scent dogs fail to find a scent, like they reportedly did with Deorr.

Sierra went missing on her way to school one morning. They brought scent dogs in within 24 hours and they could not find a scent trail past her driveway. We surmised that someone came to her home and drove her away.

Later after the kidnapper was arrested, we found out she walked to the bus stop, where she was nabbed. So Deorr might have walked away and the dogs just missed it?

 

[Hatfield]

....snipped for focus.....
Two people, on foot, not bathing much or staying clean...........and the dogs never picked up a scent. What good are they ?

IMO
The quality of the dogs and the quality of the human dog handlers makes all the difference with trying to use dogs to help in searches.

As well as environmental factors such as rain, other smells in area, etc.

So I do think dogs are a wonderful tool and they can be very beneficial and they have successfully helped find numerous bodies and tracks but I also 100% know that depending on all those variables and the quality of dogs and handlers you end up with mixed results.

They are well worth using though.

I once owned a bird dog and it was from a breeded bloodline of hunting dogs. I saw first hand how this dog had an incredible nose and from a puppy with no training he would sniff out all sorts of things.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I'm clear back on post 200, but one thing pops to mind and that is that most 2-almost-3 year olds never.stop.talking. My kids were asking questions every 10 seconds at that age, or screaming,/shrieking or giggling, or crying, or making car sounds or animal noises.......you get the point. My twin niece and nephew were the same way when they were that age a year ago - except they were even louder because they had to out-talk each other lol.

So I am just wondering how it wouldn't be immediately apparent that he was gone simply due to the silence it would have created.

 

[Sillybilly]

:bump: For those of you who may have missed the previous warnings and Bessie's most recent one:

ADMIN NOTE: Any further speculation about the parents WILL result in a Time Out.

Chief deputy on missing boy's family: 'They're solid
KTVB, KTVB.COM 2:14 p.m. MDT July 16, 2015

[...]
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

 

[luvsummer]

Just a thought that since they were at a campground and it appears to be somewhat in the wilderness. Could possibly maybe a Bear or Mountain lion, coyote some type of animal taken the baby?

 

[Hatfield]

I always keep Sierra LaMars case in mind when scent dogs fail to find a scent, like they reportedly did with Deorr.

Sierra went missing on her way to school one morning. They brought scent dogs in within 24 hours and they could not find a scent trail past her driveway. We surmised that someone came to her home and drove her away.

Later after the kidnapper was arrested, we found out she walked to the bus stop, where she was nabbed. So Deorr might have walked away and the dogs just missed it?

Its definitely possible the dogs were just not good quality OR more importantly the handlers may have missed reading the dogs and were not good handlers. Its up to the handlers to read the dogs signs they are giving out.

The bottom line is it is possible the dogs just missed the track of the child. Thats always possible. Dogs are never a 100% guarantee. They are just a tool. Worth using but just a tool.

 

[teeandcee]

Did y'all catch this regarding the reservoir and the dogs hitting on it??



http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07...-fear-abducted

......Police divers have been methodically searching every square inch of the reservoir for the little boy after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. However, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman tells HLN they just learned that someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that very well could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

 

[Elainera]

Its definitely possible the dogs were just not good quality OR more importantly the handlers may have missed reading the dogs and were not good handlers. Its up to the handlers to read the dogs signs they are giving out.

The bottom line is it is possible the dogs just missed the track of the child. Thats always possible. Dogs are never a 100% guarantee. They are just a tool. Worth using but just a tool.

Yes I think everyone here would agree that dogs are not 100% reliable.

 

[Hatfield]

Just a thought that since they were at a campground and it appears to be somewhat in the wilderness. Could possibly maybe a Bear or Mountain lion, coyote some type of animal taken the baby?

Its a good thought because I think Idaho has its fair share of wild animals like that.

That sure would explain such a sudden disappearance they way they described it.

This is 1 really sad story. A week is way too long.
I unfortunately do not think the boy can be alive at this point unless he was kidnapped.

So I regrettably am hoping he was kidnapped.
Uggggg.

 

[ClaireNC]

Thank you for your post. I have no idea of the type of campground they were at. I pictured then in the middle of nowhere with nobody around.

So it would be possible an abduction did occur with so many people in the area?

How do you think that could have occured with the grandpa and friend seeing nothing.

Not putting you on the spot but since you are there thinking you might shed some light on an abduction happening.

Thank you.

That post you were responding to was full of misinformation. The campsite is remote - 10 miles from the nearest town and that town is not much of a town. The usage level is listed as "light" on the Forest Service website and there are only 3 campsites at that location. As far as we know they were the only ones camping there at that time. Also there are not cabins everywhere in that area. Just look at the maps and you will see there is not much around. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?usp=sharing&mid=zW6CBVbxpdYA.klXz-SrbHNBI and https://www.bing.com/maps/default.a...xMy40NjU5Nl9fX2VfJm1vZGU9RCZydG9wPTB+MH4wfg==

Because of the remoteness and the fact that there is only one dirt road in and out makes an abduction unlikely. IMO

 

[katydid23]

My german shepherd has an amazing nose. We used to play hide n seek with our other shepherd, when my kids were little. And she could ALWAYS find them. My husband would put them up in a high cabinet, close the cupboard door, run around a bit to throw off his scent. And good ol Blue could go right to the kids everytime. I know dogs have amazing noses. But I agree with Hatfield that it is variable and depends upon the handlers and various circumstances and environmental factors. :wolf: :wolf2:

 

[ClaireNC]

It flows out of the reservoir in the interview they said they were camped below the dam. check it out on the map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zW6CBVbxpdYA.klXz-SrbHNBI&usp=sharing

The Creek actually flows in and out of the reservoir. It starts up in the mountain to the southwest and flows into the reservoir and then out on the north side and continues on. They were camped on the north end of the reservoir where the creek flows out of it.

 

[Elainera]

One thing I find curious is the assertion that Deorr had to have THREE favorite things with him at all times. Monkey,blankie and sippee cup. I find that unusual to have THREE things to carry around. Did Deorr really carry all 3 things with him everywhere all of the time? The parents say yes, he did. It just seems odd that a 2 yr old would carry a blanket , a sock monkey and a cup with him when he is out. How did he do anything with his hands so full?

bbm Well I think the parents were exaggerating there. We have for example one photo of him w/o these three things, instead he is holding a red ball.

Could be they meant he needs those things (blanket, cup, monkey) when he sleeps or naps, or is simply tired, and since it was close to nap time, he might have held them when they left for their little walk, and later wondered why he had not taken them with him since he already had them. Just speculating.

 

[Sillybilly]

Did y'all catch this regarding the reservoir and the dogs hitting on it??



http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07...-fear-abducted

......Police divers have been methodically searching every square inch of the reservoir for the little boy after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. However, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman tells HLN they just learned that someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that very well could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

I think it's important to note that detecting cremains is a sub-specialty of cadaver dog training. IOW not all cadaver dogs are trained to detect cremains.

from "Forensic Cremation Recovery and Analysis" by Fairgrave:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=_r...T#v=onepage&q="cadaver dogs" cremains&f=false

The use of cadaver dogs in the search for cremains will depend greatly on the experience of the dog, and the handler. If the dog has not undergone any training in cremains scent, then it is important to consider the use of another team.

 

[TxJan1971]

Although it is certainly possible an animal attack could be considered, as far as any MSM statements, see link below:

From 07-11-15 / updated 07/13/15 video

02:50 - news reporter states:

"...The Sheriff's Office says that there is no evidence of a wild animal attack being a factor, however, while I was there earlier an adult sock was found in an area that had been searched numerous times, and as of right now, foul play is not part of the investigation..."

http://www.localnews8.com/news/searc...ounty/34110688

 

[steelman]

IMO
The quality of the dogs and the quality of the human dog handlers makes all the difference with trying to use dogs to help in searches.

As well as environmental factors such as rain, other smells in area, etc.

So I do think dogs are a wonderful tool and they can be very beneficial and they have successfully helped find numerous bodies and tracks but I also 100% know that depending on all those variables and the quality of dogs and handlers you end up with mixed results.

They are well worth using though.

I once owned a bird dog and it was from a breeded bloodline of hunting dogs. I saw first hand how this dog had an incredible nose and from a puppy with no training he would sniff out all sorts of things.

Do you remember the family of 4 that was missing over a year in Alaska ? Numerous searches with tracking canines, ATV's, helicopters, cadaver dogs.........nothing. Just recently they came across the entire family lying out in the middle of a field in plain view, less than a 1/2 mile from their house. You can't make this stuff up.......... That case was so egregious, they didn't even bother to try and explain it away, it would have sounded stupid regardless.

 

[teeandcee]

I think it's important to note that detecting cremains is a sub-specialty of cadaver dog training. IOW not all cadaver dogs are trained to detect cremains.

from "Forensic Cremation Recovery and Analysis" by Fairgrave:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=_r...T#v=onepage&q="cadaver dogs" cremains&f=false

Sillybilly, you lost me as to what your point is. I'm tired today so are you saying something obvious and I'm missing it? My point was the sheriff said the cremains (learned a new word here) could be what the dogs are picking up rather than Deorr. That implies to me these dogs aren't trained in that sub specialty so the cremains could confuse them.

 

[ClaireNC]

That story by HLN about human cremains being dumped in the reservoir is really bothering me. I want more information, but haven't seen it reported by any other media station. Could HLN be wrong in its reporting? It's a pretty wild story for them to be wrong about.