ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

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OT but there's another current case where the father said the baby was abducted by two people, but police wouldn't do a sketch of these two suspects. So he found his own artist to do a sketch and released it himself. The police pointed out that the sketches looked just like two characters from the videogame Grand Theft Auto, and arrested the father and charged him with murdering the baby soon after this :(
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...nth-Indianapolis-27-Aug-2014-unknown-abducter

There is nothing even remotely funny about a baby being murdered, but it is pathetic to the point of comedy that the guy modeled his red herring guys after GFA characters. Unfortunately, I can imagine a similar situation in this case where the process of a sketch artist working with the family to try to create the staring man, and the back and forth about his description, could expose or reiterate that he doesn't exist. (Add to that trying to make the Leadore staring man match the Swan Valley staring man...not likely going add up to a viable sketch or a viable lead.)
 
How long were they ( the mom, dad, Deorr jr.) in this party store? 5 mins. 10 mins? At what point does looking at, watching a 2 yr. old, become staring? How long? Just because he was referred to as giving Mom the creeps, doesn't make him in fact "creepy" if he was in fact either quick look, watching, staring. As for the no name woman who claims the older curly haired guy stared at them at the ice cream place, it could very well have been some guy eating ice cream, people watching, not wanting to eat ice cream and drive. Many, many people enjoy watching little kids.:moo:


ETA I admit haven't kept up very well, severe fibromyalgia flare up, just on a little the last few days (to see if I was still Michigan lottery loser, Yes I am.:pullhair:

I don't think The Stage Shop is a "party" store. More like a rural convenience store/gas station. But it is unclear (to me, at least) if the parents bought the fries at store and sat down somewhere to eat them and that's where the man stared at them. Or if they bought items from the store then went to the Silver Dollar Casino restaurant place for fries and THAT's where they were stared at. I don't think the amount of time over which incident took place has ever been shared.
 
What constitutes a criminal record that would relate to this case? None of the POI have convictions for child molestation. Now, i have "heard" there are other "issues" with some of them. Many many kids are harmed and killed and the perps had no criminal past. Drugs or a person incarcerated at one time for theft ( i am just making this up) doesnt a child killer make.

Someone snapping..depressed...under financial strain..delusional.. hearing voices..sexually abusing a step child for example.. would be issues LE would look at in a case of this nature when a baby disappears. Friends, enemies, acquaintances, RSO, family.. the usual suspects are cleared first, I would imagine.


The sheriff seems to have all but ruled out abduction..the PI thinks Deorr was abducted.. one of them is wrong. MOO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

I agree that there is no criminal record (at least that is public) for any of the four POIs that would suggest they might harm a toddler. Although IR was charged with a sex crime, it was against an adult (and the charge was later reduced). I think it's a stretch to think he'd harm a child based on that alone. However, the sum of his criminal record does indicate that he may have anger issues and perhaps a tendency to disregard the law at times. His interview with NE was also quite bizarre. All my opinion, of course. Despite all this, I don't sense that he's a suspect. I find him a bit suspicious, but I'm not privy to the investigation. LE has not said anything that would lead me to believe he is involved. MOO

I wonder if they are looking at any friends, enemies, acquaintances, etc.? Maybe there is a fifth POI that has not been named as of yet... interesting idea.
 
What value do you think this sketch will really have? Does anyone remember the Susan Smith case? She said a black guy kidnapped her 2 kids and took the car.. She went to the police station and they did a forensic sketch based on her description.. When it was done one of the detectives said that the sketch looked like Susan Smith's husband ( and it did!). As we know.. she drowned the babies, car and all in a lake.

Who knows what JM or DK remember after 2+ months? And wouldnt it be funny if DK meets with the artist then JM does and the sketches look nothing alike? Is it worth doing? i dunno.. i guess so..especially if LE has NOTHING. JMO

Anything i write is JMO

I am thinking that my sketch would be approximately the same value as the PI-instigated sketch. Because IMO, the highest probability is that the staring man never existed. At least not in Leadore. Or if he did, he was quickly ruled out--hence LE not publicly entertaining it as a viable lead. But, I still think it would a very interesting sketch to see!


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Maybe PI should have run all this by LE before announcing it on a radio interview?

Sorry if I'm coming across angry here but this is just extremely frustrating that if LE are on top of this why do they let PI muddy the water/waste their time (if that is the case)

The FBI report can't come soon enough....

In a weird way, maybe it would give LE more info to allow for JM and DK to go through the exercise of describing this guy. If their descriptions didn't match up it might reaffirm something they speculated. Of course, if they did match up and also match up w/Swan Valley, then FBI might rethink everything.


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I am thinking that my sketch would be approximately the same value as the PI-instigated sketch. Because IMO, the highest probability is that the staring man never existed. At least not in Leadore. Or if he did, he was quickly ruled out--hence LE not publicly entertaining it as a viable lead. But, I still think it would a very interesting sketch to see!


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So when JM said a man was starring at little Deorr in the store and made her uncomfortable, you think she was lying?
 
So when JM said a man was starring at little Deorr in the store and made her uncomfortable, you think she was lying?

I think to say that she was LYING would be a very simplistic explanation as to why IMO, I think it is most probable that the guy isn't a viable lead and/or doesn't exist. Here are some things that make me go hmm:

1. Though LE has ruled nothing out entirely, stranger abduction is the least likely scenario. From my perspective, LE has ONE motive and that is to find the toddler. I am not buying into any of the spec that the sheriff is stupid, cavalier or mishandled the case. For reasons stated here and likely for other reasons that we are not privy to, he does not believe abduction is a real possibility.

2. Though the parents believed that DeOrr was abducted, they didn't think to mention the one suspicious person creepily staring at their son just a couple hours before he went missing. UNTIL the PI came in trying to prove out their abduction theory.

3. We don't know what JM said to the PI. We know how the PI, on a mission to prove out abduction, relayed her story.

3. There is such thing as magical thinking. If the parents' last hope for finding the toddler alive requires him to have been abducted, their minds might be playing tricks on them. They might want desperately to make some guy who glanced at the family be THE ONE.

4. They have been under undue pressure from crazy backwards-recording SM people claiming that they did terrible things to their son. It might be human nature to try to distract the glare of the public eye by highlighting another possibility--abduction--and it is helpful to have a lead.

5. It is completely improbable that the PI, once uncovering the staring incident at Leadore, the ONE abductor lead, wouldn't have asked what car the guy might have been driving. BUT, this is exactly what would have had to happen for the PI to have waited until the Swan Valley description came in, with vehicle description, prompting him after all this time to ask DK what car the Leadore guy could have been driving--and DK at that time remembered the car, and it was the same one. Again, this is the PI's story of what happened, not DK's. And I'm not buying it.

6. There is not a sketch. Assuming, as I do, that neither LE nor the FBI are morons or trying to pull the wool over taxpayers' eyes and genuinely (probably even desperately) want to find this boy, there would have been a sketch and Amber Alert of a Rubicon if this was a real lead. This tells me that the staring man/men have been ruled out, whether that's because it is KNOWN that something other than abduction happened to DeOrr, whether the person who served fries said there was no guy there, OR said, yes, there was a guy there and gave LE his name and they checked him out and cleared him.

7. There is NOTHING pointing to a connection between the Leadore staring man and the Swan Valley staring man. People give me the creeps all the time. Doesn't mean that one person who gives me the creeps is the same person who gives someone somewhere else the creeps.

8. IMO, there is like a .00000000000000001% chance that this guy exists and is a viable lead and yet has been ignored by LE and the FBI. If it is true that this staring man was at the fries restaurant, corroborated by a sales person, other patrons or video, or receipt, and his alibi for the 10 mins that DeOrr was left alone unattended doesn't check out, then this sketch will help people identify him and remind the sales person of him. They can check receipts. Did he use a debit card? And maybe they will find that he followed the family back to the campsite and pounced when GGP went into the trailer, yet the family forgot even seeing this guy or mentioning him until the PI came into play. But I expect pigs to fly before that, really.
 
I think to say that she was LYING would be a very simplistic explanation as to why IMO, I think it is most probable that the guy isn't a viable lead and/or doesn't exist. Here are some things that make me go hmm:

1. Though LE has ruled nothing out entirely, stranger abduction is the least likely scenario. From my perspective, LE has ONE motive and that is to find the toddler. I am not buying into any of the spec that the sheriff is stupid, cavalier or mishandled the case. For reasons stated here and likely for other reasons that we are not privy to, he does not believe abduction is a real possibility.

2. Though the parents believed that DeOrr was abducted, they didn't think to mention the one suspicious person creepily staring at their son just a couple hours before he went missing. UNTIL the PI came in trying to prove out their abduction theory.

3. We don't know what JM said to the PI. We know how the PI, on a mission to prove out abduction, relayed her story.

3. There is such thing as magical thinking. If the parents' last hope for finding the toddler alive requires him to have been abducted, their minds might be playing tricks on them. They might want desperately to make some guy who glanced at the family be THE ONE.

4. They have been under undue pressure from crazy backwards-recording SM people claiming that they did terrible things to their son. It might be human nature to try to distract the glares of the public eye by highlighting another possibility--abduction--and it is helpful to have a lead.

5. It is completely improbable that the PI, once uncovering the staring incident at Leadore, the ONE abductor lead, wouldn't have asked what car the guy might have been driving. BUT, this is exactly what would have had to happen for the PI to have waited until the Swan Valley description to come in, with vehicle description, prompting him after all this time to think to ask DK what car the Leadore guy could have been driving--and
DK at that time remembered the car, and it was the same one. Again, this the PI's story of what happened, not DK's. And I'm not buying it.

6. There is not a sketch. Assuming, as I do, that neither LE nor the FBI are morons or trying to pull the wool over taxpayers' eyes and genuinely (probably even desperately) want to find this boy, there would have been a sketch and is Amber Alert of a Rubicon if this was a real lead. This tells me that the staring man/men have been ruled out, whether that's because it is KNOWN that something other than abduction happened to DeOrr, whether the person who served fries said there was no guy there, OR said, yes, there was and gave LE his name and they checked him out and cleared him.

7. There is NOTHING pointing to a connection between the Leadore staring man and the Swan Valley staring man. People give me the creeps all the time. Doesn't mean that one person who gives me the creeps is the same person who gives someone somewhere else the creeps.

8. IMO, there is like a .00000000000000001% chance that this guy exists and is a viable lead and yet has been ignored by LE and the FBI. If it is true that this staring man was at the fries restaurant, corroborated by a sales person, other patrons or video, and his alibi for the 10 mins that DeOrr was left alone unattended doesn't check out, then this sketch will help people identify him and remind the sales person of him. They can check receipts. Did he use a debit card? And maybe they will find that he followed the family back to the campsite and pounced when GGP went into the trailer, yet the family forgot even seeing this guy or mentioning him until the PI came into play. But I expect pigs to fly before that, really.

:goodpost:
 
Is the FBI required to share their findings with the public and if so, can they pick and choose what they release?
 
Is the FBI required to share their findings with the public and if so, can they pick and choose what they release?

I think they can disclose or not disclose anything they want to help their investigation. If you think about it, they wouldn't be able to pull off any kind of undercover work if they had to disclose everything.
 
Is the FBI required to share their findings with the public and if so, can they pick and choose what they release?

I could be wrong, but I don't think they have to share anything with the public. They could just turn their findings over to the Sheriff (and/or Prosecutor, depending on what those findings are) and let them decide how to proceed...
 
OT: For anyone interested, there will be a total eclipse tomorrow night, aka a Blood Moon. Here's a link to see what time it is visible for your area.

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/

It's supposed to be starting soon, but the darn sun is still up here (and more importantly, the moon isn't up)! I think it should be dark before the total eclipse, though. :) Hoping it's worth all the hype! Thanks for the link and reminder!
 
It's supposed to be starting soon, but the darn sun is still up here (and more importantly, the moon isn't up)! I think it should be dark before the total eclipse, though. :) Hoping it's worth all the hype! Thanks for the link and reminder!

Tiniest little bite taken out of the moon here.....
 
Since we haven't any new information in a while I thought of making a list of what LE must know by now.

1. Who was at the campground.
2. When they arrived.
3. What vehicles.
4. What they brought with them.
5. Their plans for the weekend/week.
6. When the trip was planned.
7. All and any phone calls by all there.
8. Who else was expected.
9. Financial records
10. Interviews with family and friends.
11. Any and all criminal records.
12. Who last saw DeOrr Jr other than the poi's.
13. Who dumped Cremains
14. What happened in town.
15. Any video of the trip..stops, gas, food.

If anybody can think of any more, please add them.
 
I think to say that she was LYING would be a very simplistic explanation as to why IMO, I think it is most probable that the guy isn't a viable lead and/or doesn't exist. Here are some things that make me go hmm:

1. Though LE has ruled nothing out entirely, stranger abduction is the least likely scenario. From my perspective, LE has ONE motive and that is to find the toddler. I am not buying into any of the spec that the sheriff is stupid, cavalier or mishandled the case. For reasons stated here and likely for other reasons that we are not privy to, he does not believe abduction is a real possibility.

2. Though the parents believed that DeOrr was abducted, they didn't think to mention the one suspicious person creepily staring at their son just a couple hours before he went missing. UNTIL the PI came in trying to prove out their abduction theory.

3. We don't know what JM said to the PI. We know how the PI, on a mission to prove out abduction, relayed her story.

3. There is such thing as magical thinking. If the parents' last hope for finding the toddler alive requires him to have been abducted, their minds might be playing tricks on them. They might want desperately to make some guy who glanced at the family be THE ONE.

4. They have been under undue pressure from crazy backwards-recording SM people claiming that they did terrible things to their son. It might be human nature to try to distract the glare of the public eye by highlighting another possibility--abduction--and it is helpful to have a lead.

5. It is completely improbable that the PI, once uncovering the staring incident at Leadore, the ONE abductor lead, wouldn't have asked what car the guy might have been driving. BUT, this is exactly what would have had to happen for the PI to have waited until the Swan Valley description came in, with vehicle description, prompting him after all this time to ask DK what car the Leadore guy could have been driving--and DK at that time remembered the car, and it was the same one. Again, this is the PI's story of what happened, not DK's. And I'm not buying it.

6. There is not a sketch. Assuming, as I do, that neither LE nor the FBI are morons or trying to pull the wool over taxpayers' eyes and genuinely (probably even desperately) want to find this boy, there would have been a sketch and Amber Alert of a Rubicon if this was a real lead. This tells me that the staring man/men have been ruled out, whether that's because it is KNOWN that something other than abduction happened to DeOrr, whether the person who served fries said there was no guy there, OR said, yes, there was a guy there and gave LE his name and they checked him out and cleared him.

7. There is NOTHING pointing to a connection between the Leadore staring man and the Swan Valley staring man. People give me the creeps all the time. Doesn't mean that one person who gives me the creeps is the same person who gives someone somewhere else the creeps.

8. IMO, there is like a .00000000000000001% chance that this guy exists and is a viable lead and yet has been ignored by LE and the FBI. If it is true that this staring man was at the fries restaurant, corroborated by a sales person, other patrons or video, or receipt, and his alibi for the 10 mins that DeOrr was left alone unattended doesn't check out, then this sketch will help people identify him and remind the sales person of him. They can check receipts. Did he use a debit card? And maybe they will find that he followed the family back to the campsite and pounced when GGP went into the trailer, yet the family forgot even seeing this guy or mentioning him until the PI came into play. But I expect pigs to fly before that, really.

You seem to be imposing a timeline that may or may not be correct. We don't know if JM and DK told LE about the staring guy. What we DO know is that the sheriff wasn't interested in it. We don't know if the PI was told the same info about the staring guy as may have previously been told to the sheriff.
 
You seem to be imposing a timeline that may or may not be correct. We don't know if JM and DK told LE about the staring guy. What we DO know is that the sheriff wasn't interested in it. We don't know if the PI was told the same info about the staring guy as may have previously been told to the sheriff.

Yes, thank you for that counterpoint. The problem is that I have 8 points.

They would all have to be wrong to make the staring guy a viable lead. Could be.

I am interested in knowing WHY you think he is a lead.


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Regarding the Rubicon guy and sketches-

Could the sketches really be taken seriously at this point in time?

We have a vague description of creep in the Jeep from PI given to him by anonymous mom. Obviously PI has a more information than he's released publicly. PI's job is to figure out what happened to Deorr but also prove his clients' innocence. What's keeping PI from telling his clients exactly what the anon. mom told him? Could he have asked JM and Sr. "hey, did you guys see an older guy with x and x features in a black Rubicon that day" at any point in his investigation? How close do sketches have to be to warrant any attention? Even a best case scenario where no information has been traded between PI and parents, we have to assume Deorr's parents have seen or heard the PI's interview.
 
My question is what did the PI really find? He was "here today then gone tomorrow".

Not actually, however, it seemed he got quite and disappeared. It makes me wonder if he found pieces that point to the parents? JMO.
 
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