ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #13

[Purplepixii]

<snipped>
Again, here is Jaryds story. A three year old who was hiking with a large group of people. He had ran ahead and was never seen again. Nobody heard a sound. They had hundreds of searchers. They had helicopters that looked for him. Nothing was found. No blood. No shoes. Nothing. Till three year later two hikers stumbled across some of his clothes. It turns out a ml did take him and do that to him.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/shredded-clothes-tell-sad-story-10-06-2003/

Before I start, I want to say I am not "attacking" you personally Giagreen, more the article you have linked. I have BBM key words/sentences.

Taking that link, the first paragraph reads "Authorities said Tuesday they believe a toddler who vanished on a mountain hike 3½ years ago was attacked by an animal, probably a mountain lion."
Another paragraph in the same article says "The sheriff said the case appears to be consistent with an attack by a mountain lion, but said authorities may never learn what happened."
Finally, another paragraph says "Forensics expert Jack Swanburg said it's not unusual to find clothes without a body in the wilderness because of scavenger animals."

So I did a bit more digging and found this article: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/partial-remains-of-missing-littleton-boy-found
2nd paragraph of this article reads "The boy disappeared in October 1999 while hiking in the Comanche Peak Wilderness Area (pictured, left) with a church group and authorities believed he was grabbed by a mountain lion while running along the trail alone, although no evidence of a lion attack was ever found."
In the same article "The top of a skull and a small tooth were discovered approximately 150 feet from where the clothing was found"
And also "investigators had to "scramble up the slope on all fours" to recover the rest of the boy's clothing."


What these articles tell me is:

1/ Jaryd Atadero went missing

2/ Partial remains have been found which are separate to some clothing remains

That's it.


Therefore, I am not sold on the SMLDI theory, no matter how persuasive some theories appear to be. And I believe that if they ever do find De'Orr in that area, and the situation is similar to Jaryd's (separate clothes from remains) this whole argument will flare again. But I will only ever believe a wild animal was the cause of death if there is solid medical evidence that a wild animal attacked & killed a person because it's just as likely that a scavenger animal would make the most of a "free meal" and separate the clothing from the remains - it's what they do.

MOO

 

[EllieBee]

You know, I think we really need to just agree to disagree on the whole mountain lion thing. Some of us believe that the chances of a mountain lion snatching the baby are very remote and we have presented the facts to support that. Other people are dead set on it being a mountain lion attack and have presented their facts. Each side is not going to convince the other to change their minds, so this has just become arguing for the sake of arguing.

I am one of the many people who rarely post any more because every time I check in the discussion is on mountain lions. Can we please now just leave it alone and move on?

:goodpost:

 

[giagreen]

Before I start, I want to say I am not "attacking" you personally Giagreen, more the article you have linked. I have BBM key words/sentences.

Taking that link, the first paragraph reads "Authorities said Tuesday they believe a toddler who vanished on a mountain hike 3½ years ago was attacked by an animal, probably a mountain lion."
Another paragraph in the same article says "The sheriff said the case appears to be consistent with an attack by a mountain lion, but said authorities may never learn what happened."
Finally, another paragraph says "Forensics expert Jack Swanburg said it's not unusual to find clothes without a body in the wilderness because of scavenger animals."

So I did a bit more digging and found this article: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/partial-remains-of-missing-littleton-boy-found
2nd paragraph of this article reads "The boy disappeared in October 1999 while hiking in the Comanche Peak Wilderness Area (pictured, left) with a church group and authorities believed he was grabbed by a mountain lion while running along the trail alone, although no evidence of a lion attack was ever found."
In the same article "The top of a skull and a small tooth were discovered approximately 150 feet from where the clothing was found"
And also "investigators had to "scramble up the slope on all fours" to recover the rest of the boy's clothing."


What these articles tell me is:

1/ Jaryd Atadero went missing

2/ Partial remains have been found which are separate to some clothing remains

That's it.


Therefore, I am not sold on the SMLDI theory, no matter how persuasive some theories appear to be. And I believe that if they ever do find De'Orr in that area, and the situation is similar to Jaryd's (separate clothes from remains) this whole argument will flare again. But I will only ever believe a wild animal was the cause of death if there is solid medical evidence that a wild animal attacked & killed a person because it's just as likely that a scavenger animal would make the most of a "free meal" and separate the clothing from the remains - it's what they do.

MOO

The article you are showing is a very old articles.
Updated articles. From 2014 and 2015

"After learning that a mountain lion had killed and carried away 3-year-old Jaryd Atadero up the Poudre Canyon in 1999, Nay remembers waking from nightmares for several nights that his own children were being carried away. He was involved in the search."
http://www.coloradoan.com/story/new...lunteer-deputies-fill-staffing-void/27103597/


"The lion is feared by lone hikers since there are an average of four attacks every year in America and Canada with at least one person ending up dead."

"Children are most at risk from the animal which slowly stalks its prey and pounces when the time is right, administering a fatal bite to the neck."

"Last month, a 65-pound mountain lion attacked a 6-year-old boy in Cupertino, California, while back in 1999, three-year-old Jaryd Atadero, disappeared while out hiking with his father's friends near Fort Collins, Colorado.Four years later, in June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished.The boy's fragmentary remains were found with the clothing, and *advertiser censored*wildlife biologist found the damage to clothing was consistent with a mountain lion attack."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/watch-frightening-moment-mountain-lion-4405881

<modsnip>It is a proven fact Jayrd was killed by a ml. I'm gonna put my faith in the wildlife biologist who have repeatedly confirmed this.

 

[wondering25]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/one-...for-deorr-kunz-jr-before-winter-hits/36027954

A private detective investigating the case of missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. believes the boy is alive and was probably abducted.


Leadore -One last search is underway for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. before winter hits.
Family and friends joined searchers Sunday at the Timbercreek campground near Leadore.
The toddler hasn't been seen since July 10.
For more on this story, watch Local News 8 at 5 and Channel 3 Eyewitness News at 5:30.


ANOTHER CASE OF BAD REPORTING, IMO. iT SAYS JOINED ON SUNDAY.. TODAY IS SATURDAY

 

[giagreen]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/one-...for-deorr-kunz-jr-before-winter-hits/36027954

A private detective investigating the case of missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. believes the boy is alive and was probably abducted.


Leadore -One last search is underway for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. before winter hits.
Family and friends joined searchers Sunday at the Timbercreek campground near Leadore.
The toddler hasn't been seen since July 10.
For more on this story, watch Local News 8 at 5 and Channel 3 Eyewitness News at 5:30.


ANOTHER CASE OF BAD REPORTING, IMO. iT SAYS JOINED ON SUNDAY.. TODAY IS SATURDAY

Absolutely horrible reporting. I'm still confused. Is there a new PI? Some random saying they are a PI? Or are they talking about the PI who is no longer on the case.

I truly expect more from a reporter. Its their job.

 

[ILOKAL]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/one-...for-deorr-kunz-jr-before-winter-hits/36027954

A private detective investigating the case of missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. believes the boy is alive and was probably abducted.


Leadore -One last search is underway for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. before winter hits.
Family and friends joined searchers Sunday at the Timbercreek campground near Leadore.
The toddler hasn't been seen since July 10.
For more on this story, watch Local News 8 at 5 and Channel 3 Eyewitness News at 5:30.


ANOTHER CASE OF BAD REPORTING, IMO. iT SAYS JOINED ON SUNDAY.. TODAY IS SATURDAY

Yup, that's the first thing I noticed. Maybe he's Pre-writing for Monday's edition and forgot it would be out today? Oh heck, that's giving him WAY too much credit, IMO!

 

[gliving]

EastIdahoNews.com spoke with retired Idaho Fish and Game investigator Tony Latham. Over his 22-year career he investigated several missing person cases and he believes the boy will be found.

“I’m quite satisfied this will come to a resolution,” Latham said in a FaceTime interview from his home in Salmon. “Everything has to be on the table. You do your initial assessment … and focus on what’s the most obvious. At the same time, everything else has to be operating in the background.”

Latham said some theories investigators may be considering include Deorr walking away on his own, the possibility of him being abducted, the idea that he was never at the campsite in the first place or that a wild animal was involved in his disappearance.

“Lemhi County has done close to 300 searches. If it had been a wild animal attack they would have at least found a boot,” Latham said. “I think, by now, the theory should be discounted.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/


Idaho commission, officer recognized

The Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies on July 13 honored the Idaho Fish and Game Commission and a Fish and Game conservation officer.

The Idaho Fish and Game Commission was named Commission of the Year. The association also named Conservation Officer Tony Latham of the Salmon Region as the Pogue-Elms Law Enforcement Officer of the Year.

Latham was nominated by Regional Conservation Officer David Silcock for being "an exemplary conservation officer and special investigator, and he has protected Idaho's wildlife and fisheries resources since 1987."

http://www.postregister.com/story.php?accnum=1095-07232009&today=2009-07-23 00:00:00

Can't argue with Tony's opinion. He's lived and worked the area all of his life. Moving on...

 

[giagreen]

EastIdahoNews.com spoke with retired Idaho Fish and Game investigator Tony Latham. Over his 22-year career he investigated several missing person cases and he believes the boy will be found.

“I’m quite satisfied this will come to a resolution,” Latham said in a FaceTime interview from his home in Salmon. “Everything has to be on the table. You do your initial assessment … and focus on what’s the most obvious. At the same time, everything else has to be operating in the background.”

Latham said some theories investigators may be considering include Deorr walking away on his own, the possibility of him being abducted, the idea that he was never at the campsite in the first place or that a wild animal was involved in his disappearance.

“Lemhi County has done close to 300 searches. If it had been a wild animal attack they would have at least found a boot,” Latham said. “I think, by now, the theory should be discounted.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/

Where is the video or article?

 

[EllieBee]

Where is the video or article?

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...on-deorr-kunz-this-will-come-to-a-resolution/

 

[ILOKAL]

EastIdahoNews.com spoke with retired Idaho Fish and Game investigator Tony Latham. Over his 22-year career he investigated several missing person cases and he believes the boy will be found.

“I’m quite satisfied this will come to a resolution,” Latham said in a FaceTime interview from his home in Salmon. “Everything has to be on the table. You do your initial assessment … and focus on what’s the most obvious. At the same time, everything else has to be operating in the background.”

Latham said some theories investigators may be considering include Deorr walking away on his own, the possibility of him being abducted, the idea that he was never at the campsite in the first place or that a wild animal was involved in his disappearance.

“Lemhi County has done close to 300 searches. If it had been a wild animal attack they would have at least found a boot,” Latham said. “I think, by now, the theory should be discounted.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/


Idaho commission, officer recognized

The Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies on July 13 honored the Idaho Fish and Game Commission and a Fish and Game conservation officer.

The Idaho Fish and Game Commission was named Commission of the Year. The association also named Conservation Officer Tony Latham of the Salmon Region as the Pogue-Elms Law Enforcement Officer of the Year.

Latham was nominated by Regional Conservation Officer David Silcock for being "an exemplary conservation officer and special investigator, and he has protected Idaho's wildlife and fisheries resources since 1987."

http://www.postregister.com/story.php?accnum=1095-07232009&today=2009-07-23 00:00:00

Can't argue with Tony's opinion. He's lived and worked the area all of his life. Moving on...

I recognize that article. I think it was posted here early on in the case. Do you know if Mr. Latham is an expert on mountain lions? I can't seem to find anything that would indicate that he is. He does have two specialties, but mountain lions aren't either of them. Perhaps you have come across something that I missed.

 

[Rayemonde]

"The lion is feared by lone hikers since there are an average of four attacks every year in America and Canada with at least one person ending up dead."

So in the whole of the USA and Canada, around one person per year is killed by a ML? Just speaking statistically, even a stranger abduction would be more likely. At least there is some evidence to support a stranger abduction (three eyewitnesses said they saw a stranger acting suspiciously), whereas there is no evidence at all of a Mountain Lion attack.

 

[giagreen]

So in the whole of the USA and Canada, around one person per year is killed by a ML? Just speaking statistically, even a stranger abduction would be more likely. At least there is some evidence to support a stranger abduction (three eyewitnesses said they saw a stranger acting suspiciously), whereas there is no evidence at all of a Mountain Lion attack.

How many little boys had the opportunity to go off wondering alone in the wilderness when they went missing?
It depends on the situation. A little boy alone in the wilderness statistically would be more likely to be taken by an animal then a person. Out in the wilderness I'm pretty sure there are more wild animals watching you then some creep hiding behind a tree.

 

[EllieBee]

So in the whole of the USA and Canada, around one person per year is killed by a ML? Just speaking statistically, even a stranger abduction would be more likely. At least there is some evidence to support a stranger abduction (three eyewitnesses said they saw a stranger acting suspiciously), whereas there is no evidence at all of a Mountain Lion attack.

This site had some good info-

Typically, mountain lion sightings are rare in Idaho. Sportsmen and wildlife watchers alike recognize how elusive these animals can be in a wild setting &#8212; often to the chagrin of those hoping to catch a glimpse of North America&#8217;s biggest cat. Even when the Idaho Department of Fish and Game conducts deer and elk flights from helicopters, it is still rare that mountain lions, or cougars as they are also known, are observed.

http://xtremeidaho.com/living-with-mountain-lions-in-pocatello/

ETA: she also includes some stories of cougar attacks....scary!!

 

[sonjay]

No evidence that WE know of.

True. I should have explicitly stated that.

It would be nice to think that LE & the SAR folks have some evidence suggesting some specific event, but if they do, they're sure managing to keep it under wraps.

 

[DexterMorgan]

The police questioned if the child was ever seen there or at the store. What's up with that?

 

[Rayemonde]

I've been looking at videos of cougar attacks, but I can't find any of them instantly killing an animal by breaking its neck, not even with small animals. Here's a video of one attacking a badger - granted, a badger is a lot tougher than a two year old human, but the fact that most people, even children, survive mountain lion attacks proves that they don't usually instantly kill with one bite. A toddler wouldn't be able to defend himself but if his parents were really only about 4 minutes away I think they'd have found the ML attacking or carrying him away. Unless the timeline is wrong, or DeOrr managed to get quite far away in those 4 minutes before being attacked, I still think a mountain lion attack is unlikely.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qIQwCD-D9vM

 

[ILOKAL]

So in the whole of the USA and Canada, around one person per year is killed by a ML? Just speaking statistically, even a stranger abduction would be more likely. At least there is some evidence to support a stranger abduction (three eyewitnesses said they saw a stranger acting suspiciously), whereas there is no evidence at all of a Mountain Lion attack.

You're right, of course, we have no eye witness of anyone having seen a mountain lion, much less one grabbing little DeOrr. None of his clothing has been found, NOT even his camouflaged boot. Oh, and no one heard anything. And, while searching for DeOrr, no one witnessed any ML scat, although they may have witnessed other scat. However, there's been no information that leads us to believe scat and scrapes were even looked for during the original search. What we know is there are mountain lions in the area. We know DeOrr vanished. It seems as though no evidence of anything was found in the forest. Evidence of a ML should not necessarily be expected as has been documented many times. So, in reality, NO evidence actually DOES make a ML attack the most likely, IMO.

 

[Yvettea]

One way to handle the discussion would be to refer to someone/something taking DeOrr simply as abduction. I think a lot of people accept the idea that abduction is one of the possibe scenarios. If need be abduction can be articulated as human, animal or alien if you must. There would be no need to use the dreaded phrase 'mountain lion' and perhaps less squabbling.

 

[giagreen]

I've been looking at videos of cougar attacks, but I can't find any of them instantly killing an animal by breaking its neck, not even with small animals. Here's a video of one attacking a badger - granted, a badger is a lot tougher than a two year old human, but the fact that most people, even children, survive mountain lion attacks proves that they don't usually instantly kill with one bite. A toddler wouldn't be able to defend himself but if his parents were really only about 4 minutes away I think they'd have found the ML attacking or carrying him away. Unless the timeline is wrong, or DeOrr managed to get quite far away in those 4 minutes before being attacked, I still think a mountain lion attack is unlikely.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qIQwCD-D9vM

I'd rather bump into a ml then a badger. They are mean as heck. They have extremely tough skin with several layers. As you can tell from the way the ml is having a hard time getting threw it even with his sharp teeth and claws. Badgers are not just tougher then a toddler they are believe it or not tougher then you or I and can easily kill a grown human. Luckily badgers are not a predatory animal and only attack if threatened. But still I wouldn't want to bump into one and scare it.

I've watched pretty much every ml video on YouTube and your not going to find one of them instantly killing anything because other then that badger video there are basically only videos of them attacking larger prey. And those videos are very rare as its very hard to actually see a ml.
And the only children that have survived a ml attacked where children who had an adult around and chased the ml off.

 

[lonetraveler]

With the exception of Casey Anthony, no charges have been filed in the other cases. As we all know Casey was found not guilty by the jury in the court of law. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

:bangheadlease don't remind me about "that" verdict! LOL