ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

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This is my only issue with the ML theory. We have a lot of experts from linked sites talking about how ML attack their prey, how they hunt, what they do with their kills, and how they behave under normal circumstances (hunting natural prey). We also have experts stating ML are incredibly difficult to study/find because of their behavior/stealthiness/etc. We have 20-25 people that have been killed by mountain lions from 1890-2004 and less than 100 non-fetal attacks (with injuries) in that same time period. How many attacks have expert witnesses? How many had a witness at all? How many witnesses actually saw the attack vs how many came after the initial attack? How many studies have been done on human attacks? Are emotionally scarred family/friends/witnesses going to remember details accurately? How accurate could studies be when they have such a limited amount of cases? In the event of an attack on a human, do they go through and photograph the aftermath? Can I find detailed reports about what was found at the scene regarding scraps of clothing, blood, bones, shoes? What about when they are interrupted by screaming parents/hundreds of searchers? Animals attacking humans is not the same as animals attacking other animals, including domesticated livestock and pets. It's not how nature generally works proven by the incredibly low rate of wildlife attacks on humans. Even less when you knock off the people who were being incredibly dense by trying to pet the buffalo or picking up bear cubs or whatever youtube disaster you can find. Where are the statistics/studies showing what happens when a 2 year old stumbles upon a ML? Where are the studies that show any human coming upon a mountain lion and the mountain lion choosing to evade rather than attack? How many people walk within a few feet of a ML every day and have no idea they are even there? No snark, just genuine questions I'd like to see answered.
 
I am SO wishing this weekend search will turn up new signs ..maybe some new avenues to explore. With this many threads and so many scenarios being revisited time and again, sometimes new ideas hit me and if not, I use my option to scroll on. Many possibilities and as of this moment, still no solid answers. Prayers for DeOrr and his family
 
"We don't know for sure" was my point. I have only lived in fairly populus, metro areas for the most part. So the idea of being in a place where no one could later id me or find me on video is weird.

But having friends who live in the waaaay-outs of ID and MT, I get how people might move about unrecorded. Which is kind of nice until you are trying to find a missing baby.

He was probably there. But I agree, not even the sheriff knows for sure. In the little Leadore-like town not so far away in MT that my family has always lived in, the locals notice everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, because there is not a heck of a lot going on. I'm sure people passing through are not paying as much attention.
 
He was probably there. But I agree, not even the sheriff knows for sure. In the little Leadore-like town not so far away in MT that my family has always lived in, the locals notice everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, because there is not a heck of a lot going on. I'm sure people passing through are not paying as much attention.

Yep, agree with all of the above :)
 
He was probably there. But I agree, not even the sheriff knows for sure. In the little Leadore-like town not so far away in MT that my family has always lived in, the locals notice everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, because there is not a heck of a lot going on. I'm sure people passing through are not paying as much attention.

I agree, as a pretty small town resident myself, that locals notice everything. However, it's been my experience that most tend to notice things about the locals, much more so than about those passing through.
 
I agree, as a pretty small town resident myself, that locals notice everything. However, it's been my experience that most tend to notice things about the locals, much more so than about those passing through.

That's a good point, it's easy to not pay attention to or not notice anonymous persons versus those one is more familiar with. Especially if the person was busy and distracted with her job, which I suppose was attending to customers.
 
If I remember correctly, the Sheriff said that all 4 adults were within seeing distance. But he did not say whether they saw each other. I wonder where GGP and his friend was when mom and dad called 911. I wonder if mom and dad actually saw the friend once he walked upstream from them, or did anyone actually lose sight of the others during the time frame that DeOrr Jr. went missing. Where was the friend the rest of the day, while people were searching, and how long did he stay at the site. I don't recall much being said about him at all by the sheriff, except he didn't strike the Sheriff as being untruthful. I wonder what the mom and dad think of him and if he still has contact with the family. Did he have much contact with the child? Was he annoyed or friendly to the child. I wonder alot about this person! No one has said much about him, unless I missed it.
 
It's interesting how Vilt PI says he came to his conclusion Deorr was abducted by a person and how he rules out other scenarios. I don't know why he left the case and really don't care as, to me, he seemed to bumble along. But he's spoken to all involved. He's formed an opinion. Start video at 0:40 to avoid the introduction chit chat.


[video=youtube;-78P5ayOlRc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-78P5ayOlRc[/video]
 
Notes from Drone View of Timber Creek Campground
Some Questions I’m trying to answer:
Which road was the one referred to as the one where you can look down on the campground? Is it road 172B, that goes to the lower reservoir? Or 172, that goes to the upper reservoir?
Obviously you can’t drive from the south end (where the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] campsite is) of the campground to the reservoir Can you walk to the reservoir from there?
Where did Deorr senior drive to try to get cell service?
On the theory that little Deorr ended up in the reservoir, how would he have gotten there?

:10 This road goes to the lower reservoir campground. It is
172B on the maps.
:23 The road into the campground, 172A on the maps. This road ends in the campground. You can see trails going from this road to the right of the screen, I believe you can join to road 172 from the trails. Notice that the creek bank snakes in and out.
:34 You can see the outhouse in the foreground. It is hard to see, but on the right you can see road 172 snaking through the trees. It is much clearer on maps. This road goes up to the upper reservoir campground, and beyond. It continues on up through the trees for a few more miles past the reservoir.
:38 Beyond this stand of trees, a rocky (shale?) hill rises steeply. You can see the road a little more clearly.
1:04 View from the opposite direction, looking south west toward the campground. The drop off to the creek looks very steep here, but there is no camp site here.
1:22 Again, you can see the road in the top right, 17B, going to the lower reservoir. I agree that the steepness of the site going to the bank may be distorted; who would want to set up camp on slanted ground?
1:26 You can see the camp fire ring in the lower left of the screen. The creek is closer than I visualized before I saw this video, but it does look to be about 50 ft. away from the campsite. The drop off on all parts of the bank along this creek, IMO, looks too steep for a child to easily navigate.
1:33 Here is the other camp site, remember there are two at this campground. This camp site is right by the trees.
1:46 Here is road 17B again. It does look like the elevation is higher where this road is.

[video=youtube;7Gm_SPAmsRE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gm_SPAmsRE[/video]
 
Okay thanks, I just went back & re-listened + I'll got back & edit my previous post. The parents claim starting at the 9 minute mark they were goie for a total of 10 minutes. [video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video] I do remember (but I have no link) that there was 4 minute minute period that nobody had eyes on DeOrr.

ETA - found it. ""They weren't up there very long when this all happened, and what they came down with is that it was 4 minutes that someone wasn't watching him," Kune said." http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...andfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

Thanks for that. Here's where I got the 20 minutes - "His parents were only away from the campsite for about 20 minutes". Maybe the newsreader was wrong - she also says that the GGP and his friend were supposed to be watching DeOrr, but we now know the friend was actually with the parents.
https://www.facebook.com/LocalNews8/videos/10153726773678872/

I do think that the amount of time that DeOrr was unsupervised is important, because it alters how far he could have gotten and what is likely to have happened to him.

After seeing the aerial footage of the campsite, I am struck to how open it is. It is a lot more open and has better visibility than I was expecting. The trees are in patches, with big clearings in between.
 
If I remember correctly, the Sheriff said that all 4 adults were within seeing distance. But he did not say whether they saw each other. I wonder where GGP and his friend was when mom and dad called 911. I wonder if mom and dad actually saw the friend once he walked upstream from them, or did anyone actually lose sight of the others during the time frame that DeOrr Jr. went missing. Where was the friend the rest of the day, while people were searching, and how long did he stay at the site. I don't recall much being said about him at all by the sheriff, except he didn't strike the Sheriff as being untruthful. I wonder what the mom and dad think of him and if he still has contact with the family. Did he have much contact with the child? Was he annoyed or friendly to the child. I wonder alot about this person! No one has said much about him, unless I missed it.

These are some of the same questions I've had as well. And there's something else that I've apparently got to go back and listen to because I'm questioning if I heard it correctly, but in the latest video the reporter stated that little Deorr was being watched by the grandpa AND his friend. I don't remember it being stated that way before. Did I hear that right? Maybe more bad reporting? Idk.
 
If I remember correctly, the Sheriff said that all 4 adults were within seeing distance. But he did not say whether they saw each other. I wonder where GGP and his friend was when mom and dad called 911. I wonder if mom and dad actually saw the friend once he walked upstream from them, or did anyone actually lose sight of the others during the time frame that DeOrr Jr. went missing. Where was the friend the rest of the day, while people were searching, and how long did he stay at the site. I don't recall much being said about him at all by the sheriff, except he didn't strike the Sheriff as being untruthful. I wonder what the mom and dad think of him and if he still has contact with the family. Did he have much contact with the child? Was he annoyed or friendly to the child. I wonder alot about this person! No one has said much about him, unless I missed it.

Hardly anything has been said in MSM about him, so there's not really much we can say.
 
These are some of the same questions I've had as well. And there's something else that I've apparently got to go back and listen to because I'm questioning if I heard it correctly, but in the latest video the reporter stated that little Deorr was being watched by the grandpa AND his friend. I don't remember it being stated that way before. Did I hear that right? Maybe more bad reporting? Idk.

Yes, I just posted the link in the post above yours. They must have got it wrong. In the beginning we did assume that the friend and GGP were watching DeOrr, but tbh it was so long ago I can't remember why we all got that impression... Was it something actually stated in MSM, or did we just assume that DeOrr wouldn't be left with GGP alone. :dunno:
 
Wait a sec. I'm pretty sure Vernal said in their first televised interview that they went "exploring". Sheriff says "fishing". Are they one in the same?
 
These are some of the same questions I've had as well. And there's something else that I've apparently got to go back and listen to because I'm questioning if I heard it correctly, but in the latest video the reporter stated that little Deorr was being watched by the grandpa AND his friend. I don't remember it being stated that way before. Did I hear that right? Maybe more bad reporting? Idk.
I don't think all the info is clear yet. I think us here got lucky with the interview with SB. So we know now but seems others haven't caught on yet that there is that interview clearing up a few things. I heard it also. Unfortunately reporters are just doing their jobs as where we are really into this so we now everything that is out there to know. Kinda sucks.
 
Wait a sec. I'm pretty sure Vernal said in their first televised interview that they went "exploring". Sheriff says "fishing". Are they one in the same?
I think so because at the begining of the sheriffs video he tells it differently.
 
After seeing these photos of the inside of the store, I find it impossible that no one saw him in the store. It would be impossible to not see him.

Right, which leads us to how do we know no one saw him in the store? Perhaps someone did, not necessarily the cashier or employee at the store, but possibly someone passing through that has no clue as to what is going on, or that he's even missing. Why would they give it any consideration or a second thought? Many people don't pay attention to or even watch the news, and Deorr's story isn't exactly nationwide news. I know that if I didn't follow cases like this on Websleuths I wouldn't know a thing about it. It's so sad that so little information is being put out here for this missing baby. I just don't get it. :(
 
At this point, I'm pretty much discounting what the PI, various media etc. have said and primarily taking into account what LE, the parents, and IR have said. Not saying that's what others should do; but for my purposes, those are the sources I'm using for now.
 
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