ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #17

[Blue Skies]

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[MistyM]

JMO, but LE have enough evidence to bring charges but want to makes sure they're the right charges. They don't want to charge them with hiding a body or manslaughter, have them sentenced to a few years in prison and then find the body and find out it was 1st degree murder. And they don't want to charge them with 1st degree murder and have a jury find them not guilty, because then due to double jeopardy they couldn't try them again for manslaughter. They don't want a Cayce Anthony situation.

That's what I thought Bowerman was saying.

i completely agree... they need that little boy's body, and even though they think they did it, unless they get them TALKING then they will be waiting god knows how long to find that child. so name them suspects, have them lawyer up, start them turning against each other. according to DK's lawyer the police were already trying that. now they have legal advice, and the ability to plea down and maybe get a deal for a lighter sentence! i really hope part of that deal would be telling us where that poor baby is!

 

[MistyM]

so the time change has been known by LE since the beginning i suppose?

i like that bowerman didn't help Klein the PI with any information. 1. what LE would give the suspect's PI info on their possible crime? and 2. even though Klein was hired by the family, he came to the same conclusion as LE, they verified as much.

and he didn't even need IR's involvement. im not sure if that's good or bad for IR? probably good, cuz i felt for him!

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Jessica has been publicly named a suspect in the possible homicide of her son. I have no idea how one copes, much less responds to this. Let's give her a few days to gather her wits about her. I'll be very curious to watch how she replies to the accusation.

I'm gonna guess alternating silence and hostility.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

A really big question for me right now is whether or not IR had seen DeOrr awake...
It might help answer another question I have as far as if the parents were already looking for a place to hide an already deceased DeOrr while on their way to go camping versus scrambling to find somewhere in a shorter amount of time.

I am right there with you on this...the only hiccup is, wouldn't cadaver dogs have hit on the truck if he'd been deceased inside it? Were there even cadaver dogs there? Or just general scent dogs?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I couldn't find a reference to 17 minutes in the interviews with the parents... If anyone finds one, please post where we can find it

I've never heard 17 minutes before today. I have a feeling that Klein thought he had a timeframe narrowed down to 17 minutes which has now been revised. DK said "50 yards/10 minutes" away in one interview, Jessica said he'd been missing an hour in the 911 call. Trina or DK Sr (the grandpa of little DeOrr) said something about 4 minutes at one point. I am guessing that shifting timeline has shifted all over the place and that's one of the biggest inconsistencies LE has seen to make them suspicious.

 

[Aeronomy]

I am right there with you on this...the only hiccup is, wouldn't cadaver dogs have hit on the truck if he'd been deceased inside it? Were there even cadaver dogs there? Or just general scent dogs?

They did have cadaver up there at some point in the week following DeOrr being reported as missing. I'm almost certain they would have hit on the truck if it were still up there then. . . but was it?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I can think of a whole bunch of accidental ways a child could die on a camping trip in that location:

drown in the creek
fall down that ledge to the creek and crack his head open
carbon monoxide poisoning from defective stove, or in the vehicle
run over by vehicle
strangled in tent rope or something along those lines
left in vehicle in the sun
fell down a hole such as an unmarked mine shaft, animal hole, etc.
ate a poisonous plant
choked on his candy bar

But what I can't figure out in any of those cases is why they would have covered up the accident and hid the event rather than trying to get help. The timeline is so tight that covering up must have been the first reaction. And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

The timeline is only tight if one of those things happened after they got back from the store on Friday. We don't know when DeOrr was last seen, it could have been Thursday night.

BBM What I have wrestled around in my head, since things started looking suspicious way back when ..Which one of the four POI's could have personally, physically (and had the means) to disappear Little DeOrr all by themselves?? Think about it. I have many times but we haven't been able to discuss such.

All of them with the exception possibly of grandpa. Any one of them could throw a 2 year old off a bridge/cliff/quarry. 2 minute job if you had to.

But what he doesn't say is: He was sick or he was/got injured or he was something else.

Yeah, we'd all like to know ALL his answers!

I think he's been told not to say anything about that afternoon for fear of jeopardising court proceedings.

Vilt was the one who mentioned coveralls and the axe. I think he stated the overalls belonged to GGP. I distinctly remember that visual Vilt created when he seemingly threw GGP under the bus.

Whatever happened to Vilt? Nate should try to interview him again.

Vilt allegedly quit as he felt the parents were not being truthful.

 

[Rayemonde]

I am right there with you on this...the only hiccup is, wouldn't cadaver dogs have hit on the truck if he'd been deceased inside it? Were there even cadaver dogs there? Or just general scent dogs?

You know, after finding out that Bowerman has been misleading us (or at least, withholding information from us) all along about the parents, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the cadaver dogs did hit the truck, and he just hasn't told us. That would explain why he is so sure the parents know where DeOrr is, and why he mentioned that they searched the vehicle again and again in case they'd missed something.

 

[Rayemonde]

Nate Eaton:
“The family says their vehicles and cars were searched, which it sounds like in any case that would be standard operating procedure.”

Sheriff Bowerman:
“You know, even though we searched them that night you know you always second guess, Did we miss something? Could he have been in another compartment ? Did we not search everything? So yeah, everything has been searched at least a couple times, if not more.”

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot

 

[MBK]

Is Deorr injured in this photo (the side of his mouth) or just dirty?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Is Deorr injured in this photo (the side of his mouth) or just dirty?

Just a grubby kid, I reckon. I have got plenty of pics of mine looking super cute but mucky.

 

[Rayemonde]

Just mucky I think too... Plus he has bad eczema on his face in a few pictures, but I think a lot of good parents struggle to control eczema, so I haven't read anything into it.

Someone mentioned a picture where he looks like his.shoulder is dislocated, but I haven't seen anything like that... Anyone got a link to the picture?

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Yes, I'm still not sure what he means by that... Does that mean someone other than the parents last saw DeOrr 4 hours before the 911 call? Or does it mean the parents have admitted he was missing for 4 hours before they called 911?

I took it to mean a four hour gap in the verified timeline, although I can see how others take it to mean a four hour time chunk of no eyes on DeOrr. They were discussing the timeline at the time the four hours was mentioned. Could be either I guess.

Let's try this story on, they go to the store and come back - say 10:30/11:30 - DeOrr has fallen asleep in the truck. Parents go looking around or whatever they do, Isaac goes off to putter around Isaac-style, GGP is similarly puttering and no one is clearly in charge of DeOrr since he's sleeping and everyone is relatively close by. DeOrr wakes up and then .... X happens. Someone (prob parents) realize DeOrr is not in the truck and begin their own search (about an hour) and the 911 calls occur close to 2:30. That's a 4 hour-ish chunk of time where things are hazy. This is just me presenting an idea, I'm definitely not stating this is what happened.

Speaking of hazy ... Lil DeOrr seems like a ghost in this whole story. No pictures at the campsite, no story of how excited he was to camp, no description of him in a sense of life or vibrancy.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I just listened to Jessica's 911 call again, she says he's been missing about an hour and confirms they're near water. This call was around 2:30pm.

An hour is a helluva long time to not report a child missing. I can't imagine waiting that long. An hour!

 

[pepelepolecat]

Is Deorr injured in this photo (the side of his mouth) or just dirty?

If I had to guess when and where this picture was taken, I'd say on a camping trip by the fireside. Which makes me lean towards "grubby." I've got dozens of pictures of my blondie boys looking pretty similar with s'more schmutz and ashes/dirt all over their faces/hands/lets.

 

[leep]

They did have cadaver up there at some point in the week following DeOrr being reported as missing. I'm almost certain they would have hit on the truck if it were still up there then. . . but was it?

But did they check all vehicles including ones that arrived Friday or were only GGP and DKS searched MOO.


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[mrjitty]

You know, after finding out that Bowerman has been misleading us (or at least, withholding information from us) all along about the parents, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the cadaver dogs did hit the truck, and he just hasn't told us. That would explain why he is so sure the parents know where DeOrr is, and why he mentioned that they searched the vehicle again and again in case they'd missed something.

Exactly

This is reminding me heavily of the McCann case.

<modsnip> I am referring not to guilt or innocence, but the well documented police archiving summary, media reports and on oath witness testimony in Lisbon as to the content and nature of the police theory of the case.

In some cases - e.g. of the Scottish lass - cadaver dogs have supported a successful prosecution without recovery of the body.

However these missing child cases are much more difficult.

The police have a working theory that the parents have hidden the body.

But what crime can be proven? Especially if accidental death cannot be ruled out, that leaves a prosecution for hiding the body. Possibly neglect. But that is not the game in town.

So we are left in this odd position.

i think it might take law reform to solve it.

Otherwise parents will continue to play the "find the body" game.

The template is sadly well established now.

 

[leep]

If I had to guess when and where this picture was taken, I'd say on a camping trip by the fireside. Which makes me lean towards "grubby." I've got dozens of pictures of my blondie boys looking pretty similar with s'more schmutz and ashes/dirt all over their faces/hands/lets.

I agree also all the pictures I've seen of DeOrr he looks totally happy and healthy unlike some other cases I've seen since joining WS [emoji22].


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[mrjitty]

The problem with these cases for LEF

1. The crim can just get lucky - they miss the body

2. In relation to point 1 - if the body is hidden far outside the search zone, thanks to the parents misleading LEF and misrepresenting when the child went missing, then the chances of the body being found are nill.

3. In relation to point 2 - the body can be moved again by the time LEF realise they have been tricked.

I can think of several cases where even though LEF know how the crime was pulled off - they cannot find the body.