ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[desert-blue]

We always take a shovel camping to make sure the campfire is put out completely.

I think SB talked mostly about the polygraphs because he can without harming the investigation. I never expected him to lay out all the evidence last night in his interview. I'm sure there are many things they know that can't be discussed publicly. In my opinion, the interview didn't point to them only naming the parents as suspects because of the polygraph test results.

This may all be part of the inconsistent stories - we've heard the parents went exploring and came back to find DeOrr missing, with zero mention of IR at all. We've heard that the parents asked IR to show them where he was fishing, then came back to find DeOrr missing, we've heard the parents and IR were at the creek but separated by feet? Yards? I will check the quote and come back. And now we have SB saying their stories have changed about who cooked what, who made what decisions, whether someone took a fishing pole or not. This is part of why we feel like we're chasing our tails.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01...will-be-found/

BBM: I agree. I think there is a lot more than the polygraphs, but the polygraphs are safe to discuss because they won't be used in a trial anyway. To interpret this as meaning the polygraphs are the only evidence would surely be a mistake.

 

[cathmack]

Also, can I just say that I think the rule at websleuths about using someone's initials rather than their full name to identify them is a wonderful idea... It allows us to speculate without every little speculation about a person coming up in a Google search of that person's name. I think it is extremely unfair if someone's name is Googled and random allegations/ speculation about that person <modsnip> come up.

Feel a little uncomfortable with the terms <modsnip> being thrown together...I'm sure it wasn't meant like that, but it just doesn't seem right.

Praying for for light, dignity and justice for DeOrr.

 

[AmyPond]

Still reading. Saw some posts about the parents wording changing about fishing and whatnot.

At first, this would make me go "hmm...."

But then I thought about my husband. He and I will be somewhere together, say our son's doctor's appointment or something. Later, we'll be talking to my parents about it. My husband will start to say things that didn't exactly happen. Or he'll tell them the doctor said this or that...but it didn't REALLY happen quite like he says. I'll have to correct him. He has no known brain problems or whatever. It's just that for some reason, he doesn't remember the details well. Or the conversation well. I think he also infers (if that's the right word?) things from what is said and then he thinks those things were ACTUALLY said. But they weren't.

Anyway...not sure if I'm explaining that example very well. But basically...I often tell my husband that it's like he has false memories or something.

So because of that...I try not to analyze if the parents have slight variations of their stories. Like first saying DeOrr wanted to go fishing. Or that he just saw the fish. Or whatever. I wouldn't necessarily read into slight variations of stuff.

Sorry if that makes no sense.

 

[scmom]

Does anyone have the transcript q &a from last night's show? Was there any bombshell mentionings?

Look in the Media thread. It was posted earlier today.

 

[ReadySet]

Interesting website for those of you who appreciate facts and stats. I like this!

http://www.city-data.com/city/Leadore-Idaho.html

awesome, and it has maps!

 

[Rayemonde]

Weird to me too. You would definitely use a small net for minnows. If someone wanted to go fishing, though, they would fish in the reservoir, not that rushing little creek...

JMO, but I think that the one news source that said they were fishing for minnows was mistaken. I think they conflated the "fishing" story with the "seeing cute minnows" story.

 

[ILOKAL]

The sheriff has stated that no one saw DeOrr with 100% certainty at any point on the trip.

Bowerman: I’m fairly confident DeOrr was there. I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time.

I'm not vouching for Reinwand. I know in his interview he stated with an emphatic "yes" that DeOrr WAS at the campground after they returned from the store. Bowerman also said Reinwand saw DeOrr between 1-1:30 PM although he wasn't wearing a watch. I also heard what Bowerman said about not finding someone who had seen DeOrr from the time they left Idaho Falls. I also heard Bowerman say Reinwand was the most consistent. I also heard him say he expected an inconclusive polygraph from Reinwand. And just today Bowerman explained that Reinwand had an extensive criminal record. Yep, all of the above. Take your pick!

 

[Morag]

I recall that we all thought it was odd that IR was not mentioned by the parents in their initial interview, nor was there any mention of him in the press for quite a few days. Perhaps there was an attempt to keep him out of it because he was a somewhat reliable witness and could have information that might implicate them. And I've always wondered if perhaps IR and GGP were drinking that day. <modsnip> A snootful would make either of the witnesses less than reliable. That could be why the sheriff is unwilling to say that the baby was seen up there on Thursday night or Friday.

Another thought I've had is about the fifty yards away comment from the first interview. I had the distinct impression that Vernal was about to say they were away for fifty minutes when JM interrupted with "fifty yards".

And why did each of the parents on separate occasions describe the baby as 'nearly three'? He wasn't. Most parents are very careful to give their child's age in precise fashion: 2 and 1/2 or 31 months, etc.

I wonder if DeOrr was filthy and bawling when they were at the store or gas station on Thursday night? Where did that story come from- was it just an attempt to muddy the waters? If my baby were missing and I had 'heard' about a description of a similar child, I would have assumed that it was him, not discounted it because the timing was 'wrong'.

We all assume that there wouldn't have been time to so carefully conceal the baby if something had happened to him....but he was tiny, and the wilderness is vast, and they had a vehicle. Some criminals get lucky when covering up their crime, so the baby could easily have been disappeared in the time between the 911 call and the arrival of other people.

 

[ILOKAL]

Do people really fish for minnows? With a fishing pole?

No, with seines and traps.

 

[Kairi'sMom]

That's pretty much what I anticipated in my post yesterday morning. That the "less than truthful" are minuscule. I doubt anyone here was previously under that impression.

Thanks for the link, Onebest.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?286501-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-yr-old-Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319589#post12319589

19:41
TG: Exactly! One of our members said, “I noticed in your first comment this week, regarding the parents, you originally said they had been deceptive and then you changed that to less than truthful. Can you explain the reason for that change in wording?” Now, there could be absolutely no reason but that’s our Websleuths members, they get right down to the nitty gritty and really want the littlest details.
20:07
SB: Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case.

Clearly, the "less than truthful" portions were not miniscule details.
ETA: underlining mine, bold is not mine

 

[persimmon]

I recall the same response. I would also add, though it may be taken wrong....that the situation involving IR was domestic in nature. In no way am I suggesting that domestic violence is a diminished form of violence etc. However, in many instances domestic disputes can get ugly and be used as tools to cause serious harm whether they stem from fact or fiction. In some instances, victims may inflate accusations out of fear etc. Overall, I find domestic situations to be precarious in many instances.

 

[ILOKAL]

Fisherman don't fish for minnows, but they might scoop minnows to use as bait.

Yes, fishermen and fisherwomen DO fish for minnows. Of course they don't use a rod and reel. They use seines and nets. If you want to fish in a creek in the mountains you're probably going to catch or own bait or use artificial bait.

 

[Rayemonde]

Just spotted this quote from Vernal:

&#8220;Six months ago today since the last time I seen my son my little boy,&#8221; Kunz wrote on Facebook. &#8220;Six months since he stood next a picnic table and I heard his little voice and that was the last moment my life went from great to upside down&#8230; that little boy taught me how to be a man to love and care and happiness I miss my son every minute of everyday. I just want my amazing son back and my great life to continue daddy misses and loves you goobs.&#8221;

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime...ld-idaho-boy-named-suspects-article-1.2508952

So the last time they saw DeOrr, was he standing next to a picnic table, or next to a rock, or playing in the dirt with his cars, or getting ready to take a nap, or walking back to ggp, or begging candy off ggp? All of the above?

 

[ILOKAL]

Weird to me too. You would definitely use a small net for minnows. If someone wanted to go fishing, though, they would fish in the reservoir, not that rushing little creek...

Now that's just not correct! Our entire family are avid fisherpersons and there's not a more satisfying place to fish wile camping than in the crystal clear creeks. It's fly fishing at its best. Any kind of rod and reel including cane poles are used to catch the mouth-watering panfish.

 

[Mickshawn]

Not sure if this has been posted yet..
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/sheriff-i-just-pray-little-deorr-will-be-found/

"Lemhi sheriff: I just pray little DeOrr will be found"

The Sheriff: He's such a good and genuine human being........I'm in tears.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'm not vouching for Reinwand. I know in his interview he stated with an emphatic "yes" that DeOrr WAS at the campground after they returned from the store. Bowerman also said Reinwand saw DeOrr between 1-1:30 PM although he wasn't wearing a watch. I also heard what Bowerman said about not finding someone who had seen DeOrr from the time they left Idaho Falls. I also heard Bowerman say Reinwand was the most consistent. I also heard him say he expected an inconclusive polygraph from Reinwand. And just today Bowerman explained that Reinwand had an extensive criminal record. Yep, all of the above. Take your pick!

Just to clarify, IR did not say in his interview that he saw DeOrr AFTER the store, it was she Sheriff who said that. IR just said he had seen him but didn't specify when.

 

[desert-blue]

JMO, but I think that the one news source that said they were fishing for minnows was mistaken. I think they conflated the "fishing" story with the "seeing cute minnows" story.

The sheriff said they were fishing in the creek, for what I have no idea...


(this is from the True Crime show in October)

SB: That&#8217;s correct! The family came back to the campground. Uh the friend said he was catching some fish and, and the parents said, &#8220;Well can you show us the fish?&#8221; They start down to the creek which is about 50 feet below the campground, and it&#8217;s not very well observed from the campground, in fact you actually can&#8217;t see the creek. You can hear it.

05:19
TG: Mmm hmm.

05:19
SB: And they turned and looked at their son and asked him if he wanted to stay with Grandpa or go with them, and he said, &#8220;Grandpa,&#8221; and started walking towards uh Grandpa. So, mom and dad go down over the creek with&#8230;with the friend. They start doing some fishing. Grandpa says he&#8217;s watching the child. He&#8217;s looking at him momentarily. He looks away, when he looks back the child is gone, and he assumes that the child has gone back down to mom and dad, because it&#8217;s just over&#8230;just over the hillside, just a little ways.

 

[Hoosgirl]

I recall that we all thought it was odd that IR was not mentioned by the parents in their initial interview, nor was there any mention of him in the press for quite a few days. Perhaps there was an attempt to keep him out of it because he was a somewhat reliable witness and could have information that might implicate them. And I've always wondered if perhaps IR and GGP were drinking that day. We have heard that they met at an AA meeting. A snootful would make either of the witnesses less than reliable. That could be why the sheriff is unwilling to say that the baby was seen up there on Thursday night or Friday.

Another thought I've had is about the fifty yards away comment from the first interview. I had the distinct impression that Vernal was about to say they were away for fifty minutes when JM interrupted with "fifty yards".

And why did each of the parents on separate occasions describe the baby as 'nearly three'? He wasn't. Most parents are very careful to give their child's age in precise fashion: 2 and 1/2 or 31 months, etc.

I wonder if DeOrr was filthy and bawling when they were at the store or gas station on Thursday night? Where did that story come from- was it just an attempt to muddy the waters? If my baby were missing and I had 'heard' about a description of a similar child, I would have assumed that it was him, not discounted it because the timing was 'wrong'.

We all assume that there wouldn't have been time to so carefully conceal the baby if something had happened to him....but he was tiny, and the wilderness is vast, and they had a vehicle. Some criminals get lucky when covering up their crime, so the baby could easily have been disappeared in the time between the 911 call and the arrival of other people.

I have to say my red flag that went up early on was during the long interview with the parents by Nate Eaton, when the dad said he was 3. As a mom, I would never round up like that when speaking of a young boy. There is a huge difference between 2.5 and 3.

And if I am in a situation where my child is vulnerable and I want people to understand the gravity of the situation, I would round DOWN to 2. To me, that would emphasize his plight, he's little and missing and no resources would be too few to help find him. So that immediately took me aback when he said that. JMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

IMO, there has been a lot going on with this case on SM, and there's a lot of information to be gleaned on there by following it closely. And people who haven't followed it closely have missed a lot of information.

If you look on the Lemhi County Sheriff's Facebook page visitor comments, he says on there about the error. You will have to take this as rumour, but I have seen an e-mail where Bowerman specifically said that IR "was never charged with rape".

Did you watch or read the interview Bowerman gave today?

 

[pepelepolecat]

All the SAR were volunteers per his radio interview last night. Dont know what level of skill that even entails, if any.

IMO, local LE failed in this case.

Anything i write is just my opinion.

rsbm


People often assume that volunteer = amateur. In my experience, that is absolutely NOT the case.

SAR volunteers are not just people who mosey out around the countryside hoping to spot something. They are -- generally speaking -- highly trained individuals who are committed to helping other people. My husband was a volunteer firefighter for years; not only did he have his fire science degree and his EMT-B (neither of which is needed for his regular job), but he also completed many advanced courses and programs (NEMS, etc.) so that he could be a more effective firefighter. He looked into joining a SAR organization after leaving the fire department, but he simply did not have time for the coursework and intensive training it entailed.

Volunteers for jobs like this are doing a labor of love without remuneration and often no reimbursement.