ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[CoverMeCagney]

I'll be back later, but want to mention something that's been bothering me for a while. Bowerman has said that it was one of "his" rangers from BLM (Bureau of Land Management) that discovered the people spreading ashes in the reservoir. Did any other personnel respond to the emergency that day, and if so, when did they arrive at the campsite. Doesn't it "seem" like SOMEONE would have responded before the sheriff's department arrived?

I know! This is what's bugging me.

1:10pm Jessica says they returned from the store. IR says DeOrr was alive and well at this time (as stated by Sheriff)
2:30pm Three calls made around this time to report DeOrr missing. JM reports he's been gone about an hour.
3:45pm DK says he was with SAR at this time. Who was SAR? Local volunteers from the VPD perhaps?
4:30pm ish, LE arrives, it took 3 hours from the 911 call.

 

[bessie]

I know! This is what's bugging me.

1:10pm Jessica says they returned from the store. IR says DeOrr was alive and well at this time (as stated by Sheriff)
2:30pm Three calls made around this time to report DeOrr missing. JM reports he's been gone about an hour.
3:45pm DK says he was with SAR at this time. Who was SAR? Local volunteers from the VPD perhaps?
4:30pm ish, LE arrives, it took 3 hours from the 911 call.

The cremains were spread on Sunday.

 

[wondering25]

That was what was reported from the off. 6pm Friday. It was addressed by DK in the first interview when he said (paraphrased), "it wasn't us, can't have been, we were with SAR until quarter to 4, but here's the problem, I have a black truck".

(anyone got the actual quote to hand?)

Was the "filthy bawling child" incident the same incident as "buying candy bar, had black truck"??

Honestly.. what difference does it make? Here are the facts. baby is missing.. no one can definitively say he was in the store..and the parents are suspects. The "witnesses" are unreliable at best. Baby is missing and parents are less than truthful.. what more do you need?

Anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[Rayemonde]

A couple more thoughts I had after listening to the interview... Again, Bowerman seems, IMO, very cautious and fair, and prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt. JMO, but I think the FBI has suggested that he announce the parents are suspects, I don't think it was his idea and he doesn't seem very comfortable publically pointing the finger at them.

So when he was asked if there was anything to indicate any past abuse or neglect of Deorr, I fully expected him to say they had no definite reason to think that... But actually his answer left me with the impression that they *have* had tips about neglect or abuse, and that the tips were at least somewhat credible.

Also, I was interested to hear that some of the dogs did "hit" on things during the search, but there was nothing definite that the other dogs agreed on. JMO but I never thought the sheriff meant that DeOrr was never at the campsite because there was no scent of DeOrr at all, just that the scent didn't lead to anything conclusive.

Also, he didn't just say the Fbi concluded that the parents were deceptive due to their polygraphs, but also from the behaviour analysis and inconsistencies in the stories. IMO, we got confirmation of one of the "less than truthful" statements from the sheriff's interview - that LE did not ask the parents not to offer a reward. Personally I don't have much faith in polygraphs, but I've heard enough from the parents to feel that they have been lying about some things. I'm sure the Fbi have heard a heck of a lot of whoppers from Vernal and Jessica, and I don't think they've come to their conclusions just from polygraphs - no way, IMO.

 

[charminglane]

If a man needs his granddaughter as a caregiver because he has memory problems and might be on oxygen,
What is he doing driving a truck with trailer?

 

[ClaireNC]

WRT the shovel ... starting around 12:56:

Bessie asked about "we've heard there were some overalls, and maybe an axe, or a shovel that were seized. I don't know that that's a fact but that did come up. Is there anything you can comment on about that"

SB said " ... Yes, there was a shovel at the scene, somebody brought it out I believe from the camp trailer, and you know at one point we were told there was a human hair on that but when it was brought out and displayed it blew away in the wind, so you know we have several people that say they thought they saw a human hair but we haven't been able to corroborate that."

After listening in last night and then sleeping on what I had heard, this is one of the things that sticks in my mind. First off, I got the impression that SB did not believe there was a hair on the shovel and/or topic seemed to annoy him. IMO I would have loved to see his facial expressions and body language when he answered that question.

Also his response proves that the campsite was not treated like a crime scene in the beginning. They did not secure it and have professionals collect evidence. I bet, on hindsight, he wishes they had.

 

[bessie]

To all members who would like to contribute to the discussion, I'd suggest spending some time perusing the MEDIA THREAD.

The link is posted here, and in the OPENING POST of each Deorr Kunz, Jr. Missing thread.

You also can locate the MEDIA THREAD by clicking on the tag, "deorr kunz" at the bottom of each of the 18 discussion threads.

Your efforts will help to eliminate the constant stream of redundant posts.

:tyou:

 

[Beezneez]

I'm sure it is, until you need police/fire/ambulance and then I'd bet you wished you were nearer civilisation! I also camp very regularly but it's totally different here. When I look at maps of where they were I am staggered how disconnected it is. Small country naivety, maybe!

We're pretty prepared for anything that could come up. ;-) The place that DK/JM et al were camping is REALLY not considered all that far out there, relative to some of the places you could go. The cell service, roads, ability to get a camper in, maintained toilets, grocery store a short while away- this trip was a very reasonable elderly adult/small child easy-type camping trip. Also, criminals aren't really lurking out in the woods here. There might be some errant potheads or unscrupulous thieves, but extraordinarily rarely are there people out to harm other people. The biggest worry would be the water or an animal. Unfortunately bad things happen to people everywhere. I've seen people survive crazy things out in the middle of nowhere, I've seen people drop dead for no apparent reason in a hospital ED waiting room. If you have a chance read up on people hiking the Pacific Coast Trail or the Appalachian Mountains. While neither of those are directly in this area they are both well documented parts of the US that get into a lot of back country travel. There are a lot of back country areas in Idaho that are frequently traveled, even now in the winter. As Sheriff Bowerman mentioned, 4-6 feet of snow means snowmobiles, snow shoeing and cross country skiing! :loveyou: Don't mean to get off topic, but I feel like this is a point that may not be understood by people who haven't experienced truly vast countryside before. When you think about it the people who live in the town of Leadore are not much better off when it comes to emergency services.

 

[Rayemonde]

I wonder when this thing with the shovel happened - presumably within the first.few days of DeOrr being missing? I know Jessica has mentioned the shovel on SM recently, and I thought it might be something she had just invented recently, but obviously not... So it doesn't sound like they'd planned in advance to tell everyone it was an abduction, IMO, or why muddy the waters by also making up a story about a shovel? :thinking: in fact, if they'd planned the whole thing in advance, their stories would probably have been very consistent all along as they would have had time to go over them together.

I'm leaning towards them accidentally killing Deorr after the trip to the store, then Vernal hauling off to hide the body. No planning involved. After that, they just tried to point the finger anywhere but at themselves.

 

[Rayemonde]

Also it is not HIS missing child and he is emotionally less affected anyway. How would you know?

How do you know when anyone is lying? You look at their body language, look for inconsistencies, look for evidence that contradicts what they said... the Fbi will have done behaviour analysis on Isaac and Ggp, as well as the parents. And they came to the conclusion that the parents are the suspects, not ggp or Isaac.

 

[neesaki]

Thanks Bessie, I did catch that in the interview. What I mean is that there is no way to know for sure that IR is indeed telling the truth, or that his memory might have been impaired for some reason that day, or that his memory wasn't "influenced" by something or someone. So I am taking his @1:00pm sighting with a grain of salt at this point until we learn more.

I wonder if that could be the ancillary issues at the campsite that Klein was referring to.

 

[Rayemonde]

After listening in last night and then sleeping on what I had heard, this is one of the things that sticks in my mind. First off, I got the impression that SB did not believe there was a hair on the shovel and/or topic seemed to annoy him. IMO I would have loved to see his facial expressions and body language when he answered that question.

Also his response proves that the campsite was not treated like a crime scene in the beginning. They did not secure it and have professionals collect evidence. I bet, on hindsight, he wishes they had.

I didn't think he sounded annoyed as such, but I thought he sounded skeptical, the same way he did when asked about the staring man. Yeah, I got the impression that he didn't think it was a credible lead. I'm sure he checked it out thoroughly just in case though - the shovel will have been analysed for evidence IMO.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

<modsnip>

I'd have thought it was IR's attorney that told him that as his legal representative, not LE.

However, JM & DK said LE told them NOT to offer an award, and this was firmly debunked by Sheriff Bowerman last night. An outright big fat lie.

The big question is WHY would the parents of a missing child NOT want publicity and a reward being offered? I've yet to hear anyone anywhere offer a sensible reason for this....

 

[Rayemonde]

Just thinking back to the creep in a jeep - I remember someone here even did a tongue-in-cheek artist's impression of the guy but I don't recall anyone taking the story seriously, not even those who were convinced the parents were innocent. Why not? We didn't have to give the parents a polygraph to see that they weren't being honest about it... IMO LE will have heard many more stories like that from Jessica and Vernal, that we've never even heard... Stories that contradict each other, stories that don't make sense...

 

[Openminded]

I've followed this case from the first post <modsnip> I did read a lot of the SM posts. And I felt from the first interview with the parents that there was something "off". I didn't believe they deliberately did something to DeOrr -- and I don't believe that now -- but I never bought their story. As to why they would cover an accidental death, they could have been concerned about being judged for negligence (even if they weren't charged) or some other reason.

I do wonder why if GGF is mentally impaired they would leave DeOrr with him for even a short time. And why they would leave GGF for however long the Leadore trip took. And why GGF was driving in the first place. If it really was an accident, on whose watch did it happen: one or both parents or GGF (I don't think IR would have been watching him). Lots of things obviously just don't add up.

 

[Rayemonde]

I'd have thought it was IR's attorney that told him that as his legal representative, not LE. Will try and find quotes regarding this.

IR never said that LE had told him not to speak. Nate said that.

 

[ClaireNC]

I know! This is what's bugging me.

1:10pm Jessica says they returned from the store. IR says DeOrr was alive and well at this time (as stated by Sheriff)
2:30pm Three calls made around this time to report DeOrr missing. JM reports he's been gone about an hour.
3:45pm DK says he was with SAR at this time. Who was SAR? Local volunteers from the VPD perhaps?
4:30pm ish, LE arrives, it took 3 hours from the 911 call.

I think DK was saying that he was with SAR almost all night, until 3:45 am on Saturday. I believe SAR arrived around 4:00, so it took them about 1 1/2 hours to arrive.

 

[desert-blue]

I'd have thought it was IR's attorney that told him that as his legal representative, not LE.

However, JM & DK said LE told them NOT to offer an award, and this was firmly debunked by Sheriff Bowerman last night. An outright big fat lie.

The big question is WHY would the parents of a missing child NOT want publicity and a reward being offered? I've yet to hear anyone anywhere offer a sensible reason for this....

So, when the parents told people that the sheriff told them not to do the reward, I wonder what the sheriff thought about that? Seems like that would have been a red flag to him, since he certainly knew he did not say that... wasn't that clear back in November/December?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

IR never said that LE had told him not to speak. Nate said that.

No offence, but Nate has got many things muddled in this case. He has been the source of some confusion before now.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

We're pretty prepared for anything that could come up. ;-)
<snipped for brevity>

Not being nitpicky (ok, so maybe a bit lol!). Even technical failure of oxygen supply? Would you camp up there with someone who might be dependent on it knowing you were a long way from help?