ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[TheTruthWillOut]

As far as I can read counting out some sort of "timewarp".
jmo

It really is frustrating...if we don't have solid basic info then what is the point of even discussing the case? Websleuths' has strict house rules (fair enough) and LE in this case have stated they don't like speculation from "social media". I guess Websleuths comes under that description...

Am I to move on to the next case?

 

[Roselvr]

This just made me think if something- does little DeOrr have a dog at home? A family pet? If so, it might be worth bringing the animal to the campsite and watching to see where it goes or how it reacts. Food for thought...

Years ago, I had a friend who was training as SAR, they had put the thought into my head. I do not know if bringing in a family dog is a good idea when SAR is also called in but IMO the family pet may be able to find something.

I have seen a few articles/pics of the search and at least some of the dogs appear to be German Shepherds.
http://www.ktvb.com/picture-gallery...7/15/search-resumes-for-missing-boy/30209465/

Thank you. While I've read a lot of the early articles, I have not been able to read them all. We were sharing them on a missing and unidentified persons FB page I run with a friend. We've been very busy between little Ember Graham, the little girl found deceased on a beach in Mass plus little DeOrr; then add in our older cases..

Seems very unlikely the cougar would eat the cowboy boots though. And as I've said, the cowboy boots are oversized and would definitely have fallen off as the cougar carried him.

We do not know how much bigger they are then his foot. If they are like most parents of kids that age, if he takes a 7 1/2, they could be an 8 or 8 1/2.

Thanks. I will research more about this. Having said that, taking into consideration the large area that has been covered I would believe that at least ONE footprint or clothing item should have been found but we have nothing.

It was the beginning of July, I don't know how wet or dry the ground is there but they may not see foot prints.

 

[La Louve]

http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2006/01/dead_deer_could.html

I've done extensive reading on animals attacks and I believe, contrary to many experts, that cougars take more children and small women than they realize.

MOO

The statistics on this wiki page would bear that out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

it breaks out to 4 adult males (18 y.o. +)
and 21 women and children

 

[ClaireNC]

And in my own opinion that really is a problem.
If you get to campsite @1 and report toddler missing via 911 @2:30, what time did you "go down" to the store? As a family.
10 miles but 40 minute drive each way.
Probably just odd wording from stress.
jmho

Where did the info come from that they first arrived at the campsite at 1 pm? I was under the impression that they got back from the store at around 1:00. Was some new info published today that I'm not aware of?

You all have been busy. Something like pages added since I last checked in.

Welcome to the newcomers!

 

[IDTater]

Is it POSSIBLE the EMT bag belonged to the "friend" of Gr. Grandpa? Was Gr Grandpa in somewhat bad health; is it possible the friend was a health worker? I believe that was said somewhere in the first few threads that Gr Grandpa had some health concerns. Could the EMT bag have come up missing/empty?

Just speculation on my part, no facts.

I think that theory is totally plausible. But then why not just address it? If there was a simple explanation, it seems like it would be easier to just put it to bed right there. Of course, I also recognize that this family is going through a nightmare and so what seems rational and reasonable to my well-rested, unstressed brain might not be to them.

Here's an idea I've kicked around in my head - what if dad requested some type of medical support be sent when he called 911? Like a "make sure you bring an EMT bag," kind of thing. Maybe he was concerned that baby Deorr wasn't responding to their searching because he had injured himself and then it got twisted into a "why would he would request that unless he knew Deorr was injured?" I don't know, just thinking out loud.

It also neatly wraps up and answers another question I've had which is, why hasn't dad's 911 call been released?

 

[loveamystery]

This is my biggest problem with the case ... the timeline. We have so little to go on. Why have the reporters not sorted this out since LE is not addressing it?!

By the little bit of hazy information we have it appears they arrived at the campsite at 1pm and somehow the child is reported missing within an hour and half. The last time I went camping it took me that long just to unpack the truck and set up the campsite!

That's what I'm thinking too. If they said the boy went missing while they were setting up camp, it would be somewhat believable, but that's not the story.

Maybe they already had the campsite from the day before and just came back from a supply run. Or the 2 Deorr's were the only one's who went to the store.

You don't go to a campsite and then drive back out over a dirt road for 40 minutes to get supplies.

Maybe someone was around their camp while they were away.

 

[shellbythesea]

Jessica's sister was tired of all the rumors, and put on our local news link to PM her with questions...

 

[4senthia]

Well I get the updates from the Sheriff's facebook page. Official social media.
jmo

 

[Kadoober]

Yes but in order to be carried away, the wild animal has to drag the victim and in our case there is no sign of little Deorr being dragged. I repeat, there is NO signs whatsoever or prints, or blood, or ANYTHING. Again, I would like to know if anyone puts Deorr at the campsite that day, any witnesses?

And what are the odds, whether picked up or dragged off by a cougar, that it could have happened without Deorr raising one heck of an alarm? I mean, it's possible that GGPa is hard of hearing, but I can't imagine a cougar snatching him and him NOT crying out. Loudly.

 

[Satchie]

We are talking about professionals here so I want to believe they are doing a professional job.

Search and Rescue isn't the same as law enforcement, it runs off donations and primarily volunteer labour. Over the past few decades, people who go out hiking, ATVing, etc in areas that have large tracts of wilderness have created these organizations themselves because law enforcement will not go looking for people lost in the backcountry.

The volunteers do get training and are always learning and acquiring better equipment and skills, and they provide an exceptional service, but I live in the mountains and there are many cases where people go missing and aren't found.

It's easier to accept that, though, when it's someone who went out knowing the risks. For a small child, it must be very hard for the Salmon Search and Rescue association to accept that they couldn't find him.

 

[leilarose68]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I stand by my belief that Deorr was taken by a cougar.

Where're Deorr's cowboy boots then? They are oversized and definitely would have fallen off if a cougar took him.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

~ 13:00 arrive @campsite
Leave immediately? to Leadore store ~40 minutes
Shop/pay at store ~5 minutes
Travel back to campsite ~40 minutes
Go explore ~10 minutes?
Search for ~20 minutes (or 1 hour)
Call 911 ~14:30

Is this about right from what we know? Corrections/additions welcome.

They said they had been at the campsite since 1 pm, not that they had arrived there and then went to the store. The store time would have been around 12-12:30 ish.

They never said they searched for one hour - mom said she thought he'd been MISSING for an hour at the time of the 911 call, which was 2:28 pm. If true, then DeOrr was unaccounted for starting at about 1:30 pm.

 

[MsMarple]

Warning: I've been trying to get caught up and am jumping back and forth between the back pages and the current ones, so maybe this has already been addressed.

Someone a while back posted they didn't think it could be a cougar attack because there was no blood. But I found this case where a 3 year old boy disappeared and his remains were found years later at the top of a cliff 500 feet above where the boy disappeared. The state of his clothes led a wildlife biologist to confirm it was a cougar attack that caused the boy's death.

It just seems to me like it is possible for a cougar attack to leave little to no evidence. Especially with a small prey animal or child could be caught totally unawares and unable to fight back, and incapacitated nearly immediately while being carried away.

Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America The boy's name is Jaryd Atadero, disappeared October 2, 1999, found in June 2003.

I've been reading along – I have little to contribute to this sad case.

I'm familiar with the Jaryd Atadero case and you're right; there are some similarities (and differences). He also “vanished” without a trace. Tattered clothing and partial remains were found three years later. The evidence pointed to a mountain lion; there were puncture holes from teeth in the clothes along with animal hairs and mountain lion scat was nearby. Also, a mountain lion was spotted during the search. As rare as attacks are - and even rarer are fatalities - the evidence was consistent with a mountain lion attack. BTW, in Jaryd's case the sheriff later came under fire for not expanding the search area far enough.

So it's not quite the same as Deorr's case. For one thing mountain lions tend to hunt from dusk to dawn and Deorr disappeared in the middle of the day which is the least likely time. There weren't any reports of sightings or scat or tracks. I do wonder though if any searchers looked up at trees.

 

[Satchie]

And what are the odds, whether picked up or dragged off by a cougar, that it could have happened without Deorr raising one heck of an alarm?

A person in my community was killed by a cougar. There were people not far away didn't hear anything. The cougar jumped on her from behind and bit into the back of her neck, killing her instantly.

I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but I think people are using more imagination than research.

 

[shellbythesea]

The weather here has switched between rain and 80 degrees, so that has been unhelpful as well.

 

[ClaireNC]

Jessica's sister was tired of all the rumors, and put on our local news link to PM her with questions...

HI Shellbythesea. Welcome! Which local news station is that? Would it be possible for you to post a link. It would be great if her sister would join us here to address rumors.

 

[rkf]

This was posted earlier but seems so mind blowing to me.

Cadaver dogs led law enforcement directly to the reservoir but Bowerman said unrelated cremated remains dumped into the water during the search likely prompted the canines' interest. A search of the reservoir using advanced sonar equipment yielded nothing, he said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/

Just wanted to reiterate that the sheriff said the cremains were dumped during the search. Kind of weird that in the midst of a massive search for a toddler that anyone would stick with a plan to deposit their loved one's "ashes", and was able to do so without being noticed. In my mind, I imagine at least a few words were spoken about the deceased person or a moment of silence was held, rather than someone just dumping a box of cremains into the water. I would think that type of activity would draw attention. Wasn't it hard to even get to the area because of all the volunteers and vehicles?

Police divers have been methodically searching every square inch of the reservoir for the little boy after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. However, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman tells HLN they just learned that someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that very well could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

 

[4senthia]

For everyone questioning the timeline, this is a link I've posted before and if you notice it says they left from Idaho Falls and arrived @the campsite on July 10. It addresses who traveled together that day~

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/deorr-kunz-disappearance-a-timeline-of-events/
Friday July 10

Deorr Kunz Jr, his father, mother, great-grandfather, and a family friend travel 120 miles from Idaho Falls to Timber Creek Campground in Leadore.

The campsite is remote and takes around two and a half hours to drive to from Idaho Falls.

At 2:28 p.m., Deorr’s mother, Jessica Mitchell, calls 911 and reports her son missing.

Search crews arrive and begin to look for the toddler.

jmo

 

[sarx]

Yes but in order to be carried away, the wild animal has to drag the victim and in our case there is no sign of little Deorr being dragged. I repeat, there is NO signs whatsoever or prints, or blood, or ANYTHING. Again, I would like to know if anyone puts Deorr at the campsite that day, any witnesses?

I do not want to head in the animal direction too much as I really don't find it likely, but I will say that any of the large predators can easily carry a child without dragging. I have watched what wolves carry off personally many times and seen on lots of video including our own game cams what a mountain lion can carry off.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[LietKynes]

I think that theory is totally plausible. But then why not just address it? If there was a simple explanation, it seems like it would be easier to just put it to bed right there. Of course, I also recognize that this family is going through a nightmare and so what seems rational and reasonable to my well-rested, unstressed brain might not be to them.

Here's an idea I've kicked around in my head - what if dad requested some type of medical support be sent when he called 911? Like a "make sure you bring an EMT bag," kind of thing. Maybe he was concerned that baby Deorr wasn't responding to their searching because he had injured himself and then it got twisted into a "why would he would request that unless he knew Deorr was injured?" I don't know, just thinking out loud.

It also neatly wraps up and answers another question I've had which is, why hasn't dad's 911 call been released?

SABBM

Has anyone tried to find it on msm ?
I thought he didn't call for a while because his phone was down to one bar and he was afraid it might get cut off ?
:moo: