ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
haven71 said:
I'm far behind but before I catch up, I don't want to lose my train of thought (which I'm practically famous for).

Thinking out loud here. There have been many cases of children who "accidentally" died. Only, it wasn't an accident. I remember one not too long ago where a father left his child in a hot car and "forgot" he was there. Searches on his computer showed he'd looked up info about what at what temperature and how long would it take a child to die in there, etc.

Of course they've checked JM's and Deorr's computers. If nothing was found to be suspicious, then that may be some proof that it was not pre-planned, anyway. And hopefully they're being tracked (they could use someone else's computer though, or a library, etc) because they could be looking up all sorts of things that they think might save their bacon.

JMO.
Click to expand...

I just hope they're not smart enough to realise that LE can and will use all of their Internet searches against them in a court of law. I mean, you'd have to be pretty dumb to Google "how to make your kid disappear and get away with it" and then do it! You never know though, Willie Wilson who disappeared Baby Delano did that. His preliminary hearing was today.

OT - LE would have a field day with my internet searches...


An FBI forensic examiner said a document titled "Infant Abduction Statistics" had been downloaded onto the phone. Later, officials would learn it had been downloaded at 10:19 a.m. Aug. 27, less than two hours before Wilson called 911 to report the child missing.

According to the affidavit, Internet search history on the phone included the search terms, "missing infants in USA," "missing infants 2014," "child kidnapping," "babies kidnapping stories," "missing children who were found," and "babies who've been abducted and not found."


"His researching, via the Internet, of missing children hours before his child ostensibly became missing is further proof that Delano Wilson was not abducted as reported," police wrote in the affidavit.
Click to expand...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/father-of-missing-ind-baby-charged-with-murder/
 
ILOKAL said:
Here's the 2nd article in the Google search which states what I said:

http://kfor.com/2016/01/25/parents-of-missing-idaho-toddler-named-as-suspects-in-his-disappearance/

I don't know if those are Bowerman's words, but I have seen no reason to believe they aren't.
Click to expand...


Well, except for the fact that the direct quote is given as "less than truthful" in another article.

And except for the fact that if the sheriff said the parents's polygraphs were all inconclusive it would indicate that he does not understand how polygraphs work, since he's clearly implied in several interviews that there was reason to suspect lying.

If it was inconclusive it would not be fair to say this:

Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case.
Click to expand...

Clearly he thinks that those parts of the polygraph were deceptive. But this would be a false conclusion if it was an inconclusive result, as an inconclusive result does not indicate either deception nor truthfulness.
 
Going back to the articles from Jan 25 in the media thread here is what Bowerman is reported to have said:
----------
Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB that Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the investigation began. "They refused to give us any further information to clear up the untruthfulness and they've changed their story on numerous occasions," he said. http://legacy.ktvb.com/story/news/c...-parents-suspects-his-disappearance/79301014/

------------------
Bowerman says the couple agreed to a polygraph test, but when asked if they knew where there son was, red flags were raised. "They are being less than truthful," Bowerman said. "They know something, I just don't know what they know. It causes me alarm. I believe they know where he is absolutely." http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects

------------------
The Lemhi County Sheriff says the parents of DeOrr Kunz Jr. have been “less than truthful” during polygraph tests and interviews with investigators.
Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

---------------------
Bowerman stated that Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr have been "less than truthful" since the beginning of the investigation. Bowerman tells Local News 8 and KIDK 3 Eyewitness news that both parents have been "continuously untruthful" and that their stories about what happened have changed multiple times. http://www.localnews8.com/news/Pare...-as-suspects-in-missing-toddler-case/37626200

---------------------
Bowerman says that Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the investigation began, according to KTVB 7.
Read more at http://www.starpulse.com/news/index...-update-investigators-tak#Csl78CLQQfFmqPwz.99

------------
The parents of a toddler they said disappeared last year while on a family campout in the Salmon-Challis National Forest are being less than truthful in interviews with law enforcement and they are suspects, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman said Monday.
 Post Register (Idaho Falls, ID) Author: LAURA ZUCKERMAN Date: January 26, 2016 http://www.postregister.com/content/newsbank

-----------------
Officials say Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the beginning of the investigation. http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/par...ed-suspects-summer-2015-disappearance-n503966

------------
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful."
"They are the top persons of interest," Bowerman told CBS affiliate KBOI. "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah I think so." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff...in-disappearance-of-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz/

------------
However, Bowerman said the polygraph tests indicated that the boy’s parents were not being upfront with some of the authorities’ questions. http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html
 
Donjeta said:
Some form of guilty knowledge test might work better but I'm not sure it could be used here because the examiners need to have some information that only the police and the guilty party know (eg. what the murder weapon was, or some details about the crime scene), and if they don't know what happened to Deorr, it might be impossible to design such a test.
Click to expand...

Speaking of this, just yesterday I threw something out there. IR, according to Klein, has "direct knowledge" which I am going to assume is something akin to guilty knowledge, since a crime has been committed. This leads me to wonder if IR is the witness that came forward. If so, it would make sense that they'd do this type of polygraph test on him, because he has offered up knowledge himself.

JMO.
 
courtneyb said:
The multiple "not passed" polygraphs are interesting to me, and just show potential support of the evidence that LE obviously has that made them comfortable naming the parents as suspects in their own child's death. Since polygraphs aren't admissible in court, it's even more obvious that there is either some really hard evidence or an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence against them. If they had passed all the polys, and LE still named them suspects, I'd believe they had the evidence to back it up. The facts are that:

1. Due to some sort of conclusive evidence, they are suspects.

2. They also happened to "not pass" a boatload of polygraphs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I totally agree... I think BeeFriendly said it very well yesterday when she said the sheriff has "thrown us a bone" to chew on (and chewing we certainly are!). He's not going to release any evidence critical to the investigation to the public yet, but he can release the information about the polygraphs without showing his hand, since they're not admissible in court anyway.
 
ILOKAL said:
(snipped out rude comment)
It is and will REMAIN my opinion that the sheriff not only said their polygraphs were inconclusive but that he also said their answers to those two important questions were inconclusive and that the FBI told Bowerman the parents were "less than truthful".
Click to expand...

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, however, it is not based on facts. As far as we know, the sheriff never said that the polygraphs were "inconclusive". He said that on important questions their answers were "less than truthful". He had come to the conclusion that the parents were lying early on. The FBI just confirmed his suspicions. See the following quote.

"We first became real suspicious of mom and dad after their initial polygraph tests, taken several weeks after DeOrr went missing. Then this past weekend, when the FBI handed over their reports and interviews, that's when we made the decision to inform the public," Sheriff Bowerman told Dateline.
http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/par...ed-suspects-summer-2015-disappearance-n503966
 
haven71 said:
Speaking of this, just yesterday I threw something out there. IR, according to Klein, has "direct knowledge" which I am going to assume is something akin to guilty knowledge, since a crime has been committed. This leads me to wonder if IR is the witness that came forward. If so, it would make sense that they'd do this type of polygraph test on him, because he has offered up knowledge himself.

JMO.
Click to expand...

I had a thought about this "direct knowledge" too... It might not mean knowledge of a crime as such, but IR may have heard DeOrr crying, seen the parents spank him, heard the parents arguing... That sort of thing.
 
Isn't it telling that they BOTH had issues on the SAME polygraph questions - the ones that had to do with what happened to their son? What are the odds of that? Just coincidence?
 
haven71 said:
Speaking of this, just yesterday I threw something out there. IR, according to Klein, has "direct knowledge" which I am going to assume is something akin to guilty knowledge, since a crime has been committed. This leads me to wonder if IR is the witness that came forward. If so, it would make sense that they'd do this type of polygraph test on him, because he has offered up knowledge himself.

JMO.
Click to expand...

The way I understand the guilty knowledge test that might not be the kind of situation that applies. The general idea is that the examiner knows things about the crime that innocent witnesses shouldn't know and the subjects' story are saying they are in the dark about those details . He presents a list of things or statements about the crime, some of which are true, some of which are not, (for example, Tom was killed with a knife. Tom was killed with a rifle. Tom was killed with a hammer)..and in theory the guilty party will consistently react more strongly to the true statements and innocent parties will only show a heightened response at random since they have no way of knowing the details. If you already have IR claiming to know some stuff he could have a heightened response simply because he recognizes the statements that belong to his own story, true or not. As far as I understand the guilty knowledge test is not used to determine whether informants who claim to know something about the crime are telling the truth or not, especially when the police hasn't got all the details about how it was done yet and can't necessarily confirm whether Tom was killed with a hammer or a rifle.
 
ClaireNC said:
Going back to the articles from Jan 25 in the media thread here is what Bowerman is reported to have said:
----------
Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB that Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the investigation began. "They refused to give us any further information to clear up the untruthfulness and they've changed their story on numerous occasions," he said. http://legacy.ktvb.com/story/news/c...-parents-suspects-his-disappearance/79301014/

------------------
Bowerman says the couple agreed to a polygraph test, but when asked if they knew where there son was, red flags were raised. "They are being less than truthful," Bowerman said. "They know something, I just don't know what they know. It causes me alarm. I believe they know where he is absolutely." http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects

------------------
The Lemhi County Sheriff says the parents of DeOrr Kunz Jr. have been “less than truthful” during polygraph tests and interviews with investigators.
Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back “less than truthful” – including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...ruthful-are-suspects-in-childs-disappearance/

---------------------
Bowerman stated that Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr have been "less than truthful" since the beginning of the investigation. Bowerman tells Local News 8 and KIDK 3 Eyewitness news that both parents have been "continuously untruthful" and that their stories about what happened have changed multiple times. http://www.localnews8.com/news/Pare...-as-suspects-in-missing-toddler-case/37626200

---------------------
Bowerman says that Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the investigation began, according to KTVB 7.
Read more at http://www.starpulse.com/news/index...-update-investigators-tak#Csl78CLQQfFmqPwz.99

------------
The parents of a toddler they said disappeared last year while on a family campout in the Salmon-Challis National Forest are being less than truthful in interviews with law enforcement and they are suspects, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman said Monday.
 Post Register (Idaho Falls, ID) Author: LAURA ZUCKERMAN Date: January 26, 2016 http://www.postregister.com/content/newsbank

-----------------
Officials say Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful" since the beginning of the investigation. http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/par...ed-suspects-summer-2015-disappearance-n503966

------------
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr. have been "less than truthful."
"They are the top persons of interest," Bowerman told CBS affiliate KBOI. "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah I think so." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff...in-disappearance-of-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz/

------------
However, Bowerman said the polygraph tests indicated that the boy’s parents were not being upfront with some of the authorities’ questions. http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html
Click to expand...

Claire, where's Bowerman's article from the 25th wherein he referred to the parents' polygraphs as deceptive? I don't see it in your list.
 
desert-blue said:
Isn't it telling that they BOTH had issues on the SAME polygraph questions - the ones that had to do with what happened to their son? What are the odds of that? Just coincidence?
Click to expand...

That is not very strange and unbelievable to me... The questions about what happened to their son would be the most emotionally pertinent to both of them anyhow, and they'd both know that these are the questions that matter the most so if they were going to have problems it would likely be with those questions.
 
Donjeta said:
The way I understand the guilty knowledge test that might not be the kind of situation that applies. The general idea is that the examiner knows things about the crime that innocent witnesses shouldn't know and the subjects' story are saying they are in the dark about those details . He presents a list of things or statements about the crime, some of which are true, some of which are not, (for example, Tom was killed with a knife. Tom was killed with a rifle. Tom was killed with a hammer)..and in theory the guilty party will consistently react more strongly to the true statements and innocent parties will only show a heightened response at random since they have no way of knowing the details. If you already have IR claiming to know some stuff he could have a heightened response simply because he recognizes the statements that belong to his own story, true or not. As far as I understand the guilty knowledge test is not used to determine whether informants who claim to know something about the crime are telling the truth or not, especially when the police hasn't got all the details about how it was done yet and can't necessarily confirm whether Tom was killed with a hammer or a rifle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying, that's a good point.
 
Donjeta said:
That is not very strange and unbelievable to me... The questions about what happened to their son would be the most emotionally pertinent to both of them anyhow, and they'd both know that these are the questions that matter the most so if they were going to have problems it would likely be with those questions.
Click to expand...

I could see them having problems as you described maybe one or two times but on 9 tests? That seems pretty telling to me.
 
desert-blue said:
Isn't it telling that they BOTH had issues on the SAME polygraph questions - the ones that had to do with what happened to their son? What are the odds of that? Just coincidence?
Click to expand...

Despite the wording he may have used, I think that the fact that both of them separately, did not pass the same exact questions, makes it a little bit less "inconclusive".

I understand that those are sensitive questions, however, there are lots of innocent parents who have passed polygraph tests whose children were missing. For both of them to react in a way that concludes with a "less than truthful" determination, makes it hard to believe that they both just happened to have had such a strong reaction to questions they knew were going to be asked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ClaireNC said:
I believe it was in the first article on the list, but has been edited out. http://legacy.ktvb.com/story/news/c...-parents-suspects-his-disappearance/79301014/
Click to expand...

I think that must be the same article where Bowerman stated their answers to those two questions were inconclusive, because the phrase "less than truthful" was not used in the first article either. That makes sense, IMO. Of course without the original article, there's no way of knowing. Maybe someone can find that original article on Wayback Machine. I'm not familiar with it.
 
ILOKAL said:
I think that must be the same article where Bowerman stated their answers to those two questions were inconclusive, because the phrase "less than truthful" was not used in the first article either. That makes sense, IMO. Of course without the original article, there's no way of knowing. Maybe someone can find that original article on Wayback Machine. I'm not familiar with it.
Click to expand...

I'm not following why it would matter? Respectfully, many articles get corrected if the writer mis-interpeted something important in an interview especially.
 
ILOKAL said:
I think that must be the same article where Bowerman stated their answers to those two questions were inconclusive, because the phrase "less than truthful" was not used in the first article either. That makes sense, IMO. Of course without the original article, there's no way of knowing. Maybe someone can find that original article on Wayback Machine. I'm not familiar with it.
Click to expand...

FWIW I distinctly remember that they only think in the article that was changed is the would "deceitful" was changed to "less than truthful". There was a point in time when both versions of the article were showing up on my computer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Staff online

Members online

... and 60 more.
Total: 3,171 (members: 61, guests: 3,110)

Online statistics

Members online
61
Guests online
3,110
Total visitors
3,171
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
604,274
Messages
18,169,964
Members
232,271
Latest member
JayneDrop
Back
Top