ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[OSpyder]

Actually I've gone through the first interview and right at the end the pink phone makes an appearance. I'd previously missed that.....sorry to OSpyder and Dee10 both!

I can't tell what the phone is I'm afraid but it does make me wonder if that pink phone is the one she had while camping or a replacement? LE had said they were handed the phones but not when.....

This interview was on the 13th July and it could be significant if they weren't secured by LE for days.

Pfffff... No problem! There is so much stuff in this case to mull over, I am surprised I remembered it! [emoji6]

I would think LE would have held off on having them surrender their phones if they were giving JM and DK "the benefit of the doubt" initially to get them to be more open about what happened. There most likely would be more history on the phones from before/after the camping trip (pings, location services or apps turned on/off, conversations, time stamps, recent deletions, etc, etc) if they waited. That would also eliminate the process of
gaining access to a second phone, which I can imagine, would be tougher since the parents surrendered their first ones cooperatively. IMO

 

[Dee10]

I found this very interesting (think of SB comments about movements):

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-your-cell-phone-cant-tell-the-police

If you carry an iPhone, you’re also carrying a G.P.S. transmitter, which links to a ground station and then to several satellites, which can find your location to within fifty to a hundred feet. You enable the G.P.S. when you use certain software, such as Google Maps. Similarly, if you make an emergency 911 call, your company will use three towers to triangulate your location; if you’re using a smartphone, it will use G.P.S. to pinpoint where you are. If you’re the target of an ongoing investigation and law-enforcement agencies want to track you, they can ask a phone company to “ping” your phone in real time. (They also use that technique when trying to find a kidnapping victim.) Those methods are not what’s captured by phone-company cell-tower records of the sort that helped put Roberts in prison.

When investigating a crime that occurred in the past, police tend to have two options: seize the G.P.S. chip and download the locations, or obtain the cell records.

 

[ClaireNC]

If Baby DeOrr has been deceased (It still breaks my heart to even write these words) since July, and they do eventually locate him, will they still be able to determine the cause of death?? (after all this time)??

It will be much harder to determine COD, but they can tell if there are broken bones, a gunshot, knife marks on bone and things like that. Also they might be able to do some toxicology testing.

Oh, I hated writing that.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Great thought on checking metadata on some of the photos, however, if the pictures are of JM and Deorr, it doesn't mean that they were taken with one of the parents' phones. Maybe grandma took the photos or an aunt or a friend?

That's possible but the image I used looked like a selfie by JM of her and Deorr in a truck that looked pretty recent.

 

[ILOKAL]

It will be much harder to determine COD, but they can tell if there are broken bones, a gunshot, knife marks on bone and things like that. Also they might be able to do some toxicology testing.

Oh, I hated writing that.

I would think the location might tell what happened.

 

[haven71]

Klein said the timeline has been expanded from 8 am to 2:26 pm

The last 911 call was at 2:28 though. May be nothing.

Also, I don't understand why the timeline wouldn't extend to when the search party arrived. A lot could have happened (hiding the body) in that span of time.

This is a very long shot, but what if ggp called 911 not to report Deorr was missing, but that Deorr had been hurt or something. Grasping at straws here. Maybe Deorr was alive or barely alive when he made that call, and the parents, knowing Deorr was nearly gone, hurriedly called 911 so no suspicion would be immediately cast upon them. Then helped ensure Deorr was really "gone" and then went about hiding the body. I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Crazy, but so is everything else in this case.

 

[ClaireNC]

That's possible but the image I used looked like a selfie by JM of her and Deorr in a truck that looked pretty recent.

Great! Thanks for clarifying.

 

[kammiemc]

I would think the location might tell what happened.

Not if he was put somewhere by someone, which is what I assume given that LE "absolutely" believes the parents know where their son is. IMO, that means THEY HID HIM. So his location might have zero to do with how he died.

<modsnip>


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[desert-blue]

I found this very interesting (think of SB comments about movements):

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-your-cell-phone-cant-tell-the-police

If you carry an iPhone, you&#8217;re also carrying a G.P.S. transmitter, which links to a ground station and then to several satellites, which can find your location to within fifty to a hundred feet. You enable the G.P.S. when you use certain software, such as Google Maps. Similarly, if you make an emergency 911 call, your company will use three towers to triangulate your location; if you&#8217;re using a smartphone, it will use G.P.S. to pinpoint where you are. If you&#8217;re the target of an ongoing investigation and law-enforcement agencies want to track you, they can ask a phone company to &#8220;ping&#8221; your phone in real time. (They also use that technique when trying to find a kidnapping victim.) Those methods are not what&#8217;s captured by phone-company cell-tower records of the sort that helped put Roberts in prison.

When investigating a crime that occurred in the past, police tend to have two options: seize the G.P.S. chip and download the locations, or obtain the cell records.

If the phone is turned off or the battery is dead, does all of this tracking still work?

 

[Paulas88]

I would think the location might tell what happened.

Yes, if they find DeOrr in location where he could never have gotten to on his own accord, or, if he's perhaps found in a shallow grave... that
would most definitely point to the parents.

 

[kammiemc]

Yes, if they find DeOrr in location where he could never have gotten to on his own accord, or, if he's perhaps found in a shallow grave... that
would most definitely point to the parents.

Good point. Some locations would be more incriminating than others. But still might not (into themselves) be evidence of the exact. COD. Klein says he thinks he knows what that was. I wonder what info or evidence he has collected to inform that rather bold opinion.


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[ClaireNC]

Not if he was put somewhere by someone, which is what I assume given that LE "absolutely" believes the parents know where their son is. IMO, that means THEY HID HIM. So his location might have zero to do with how he died.

Unless you are assuming LE, FBI and Klein are all collectively cuckoo and that we will all be surprised when the remains are found in a lion's den?

Guess, I should have added tooth marks from an animal to the list of things that can be seen by studying bones.

 

[Paulas88]

Klein said the timeline has been expanded from 8 am to 2:26 pm

The last 911 call was at 2:28 though. May be nothing.

Also, I don't understand why the timeline wouldn't extend to when the search party arrived. A lot could have happened (hiding the body) in that span of time.

This is a very long shot, but what if ggp called 911 not to report Deorr was missing, but that Deorr had been hurt or something. Grasping at straws here. Maybe Deorr was alive or barely alive when he made that call, and the parents, knowing Deorr was nearly gone, hurriedly called 911 so no suspicion would be immediately cast upon them. Then helped ensure Deorr was really "gone" and then went about hiding the body. I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Crazy, but so is everything else in this case.

I was thinking, maybe GGP was told about Deorr's disappearance shortly before HE
decided to call, and maybe his call.... wasn't in the JM/VK scheme, and forced them (JM/VK) to call minutes later?

 

[ClaireNC]

Yes, if they find DeOrr in location where he could never have gotten to on his own accord, or, if he's perhaps found in a shallow grave... that would most definitely point to the parents.

The location could certainly help determine manner of death, but not necessarily cause of death.

 

[ClaireNC]

I was thinking, maybe GGP was told about Deorr's disappearance shortly before HE
decided to call, and maybe his call.... wasn't in the JM/VK scheme, and forced them (JM/VK) to call minutes later?

Good thought. I said something similar the other day. Maybe GGP noticed that something was wrong and called 911 and it was GGP's call that prompted them to quickly make up the whole story? Maybe they weren't even planning to call until they found out that GGP did? The fact that we never even heard about GGP's call until Klein mentioned it bothers me. I can't help feeling it's important, but of course it might not be.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Good point. Some locations would be more incriminating than others. But still might not (into themselves) be evidence of the exact. COD. Klein says he thinks he knows what that was. I wonder what info or evidence he has collected to inform that rather bold opinion.


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I don't think Klein knows the COD specifically. I think he meant he know the parents contributed to his death.

 

[Trident]

Good thought. I said something similar the other day. Maybe it was GGP's call that prompted them to quickly make up the whole story. Maybe they weren't even planning to call until they found out that GGP did. The fact that we never even heard about GGP's call until Klein mentioned it bothers me. I can't help feeling it's important, but of course it might not be.

I wonder why we don't hear about so many things, except in tiny bits and pieces, such as IR was on the trip, GGP made a 911 call, a diaper thrown away, etc. What is the point, LE wise, of these dribs and drabs of information? Is this how they got it?

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Good thought. I said something similar the other day. Maybe GGP noticed that something was wrong and called 911 and it was GGP's call that prompted them to quickly make up the whole story? Maybe they weren't even planning to call until they found out that GGP did? The fact that we never even heard about GGP's call until Klein mentioned it bothers me. I can't help feeling it's important, but of course it might not be.

And perhaps this is why IR asked NE if he had talked to the GGP.

 

[bessie]

I wonder why we don't hear about so many things, except in tiny bits and pieces, such as IR was on the trip, GGP made a 911 call, a diaper thrown away, etc. What is the point, LE wise, of these dribs and drabs of information? Is this how they got it?

It was known from the beginning that IR was part of the group. The diaper story didn't come from LE, nor did the alleged call from GGP's phone. LE hasn't released much information. But they've been upfront about the info they have reported to the public.

 

[desert-blue]

I don't feel like DK's and GGPA's 911 calls probably have anything super incriminating in them or else LE would have suspected foul play before they even arrived at the campsite (and secured it as such, which they didn't). It could be that the calls have conflicting information or contain evidence of when or how DeOrr was last seen. Maybe what was said on the 911 calls doesn't match what JM and DK said in their interview on the 13th. I think LE must have decided early on not to release DK's and GGPA's calls, though. In a case with this much public interest, it seems like the media would have gotten copies and released them - I'm sure they put in public records requests, but must have only been given the one 911 call. IMO, whatever is on the other 2 calls must place suspicion on the parents and/or on how or when DeOrr disappeared, and since Bowerman was trying to quiet SM "rumors," he probably decided that releasing the other 911 calls would only add fuel to the fire (kind of like not revealing that they stopped at the Silver Dollar Thursday night...). I think he was trying to protect the parents and keep them in his good graces for as long as possible in hopes of finding out what really happened to DeOrr. MOO.