ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Onebest]

I've listened to it, and I'm certain he says the other dogs *didn't* alert. Listen to it again and see what you think.

I think he says "none of the other dogs alerted".
. Raymonde I believe you are correct!


http://www.truecrimeradio.com/radio-archives/sheriff-lynn-bowerman-radio-archive-jan-2016/

 

[DatelineFan]

@lawlaw2000 I'm completely on board with the first paragraph of your theory! You stated why their statements don't add up, very clearly and concisely! Thank you!

Unfortunately, I don't believe Deorr is living anymore. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[TxJan1971]

While we consider/discuss all the various possible scenarios presented today, a couple of Klein’s statements stood out to me when I finally had the chance to listen to the January 28, 2016 interview with Klein/590KID Radio.

I thought I’d share some of my “bullet points” here just in case some of you may not have yet listened to and/or for anyone non hearing. Apologies if any of this has already been discussed. If nothing else, it can serve as a gentle reminder:

Klein:
I think a lot of people don’t understand that the "incident" happened up on federal land.

(This suggested (to me) that whatever happened to the baby happened at or around the camp/mountain and not someplace else and therefore would have had to occur either Thursday or Friday.)


Klein:
So that’s where we are. We’re investigating it as a death case
Do we believe this is an accidental death or do we believe this is a homicide? We are currently in that Stage which is Stage 3, it is deciphering which type of “incident” –
we’re still developing some evidence.


Klein:
There are specialists coming in from Quantico as we speak…uh… to decipher this information. We now have further evidence that has been discovered and is being sent off back to Quantico,


Klein:
There’s nothing to indicate there was any other person involved. There are other axillary issues that I can’t get into on the other two people that were on the mountain . We are engaged on that as well, so that’s where this case stands. We have two persons of interest with two axillary persons that we’re still vetting out.


Klein:
there is evidence… that shows what happened in this case. Now I’m not going to get into the evidence of what it is, because we’re quickly heading towards a prosecutorial phase, but the physical evidence that has been obtained early in the case has matched out later into the case, and as we have been very clear with both of the families is that…you know we’re waiting on some more lab tests to come back, and there was a couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) that are on their way already to the East Coast to be looked at,


Klein:
my feeling is after a very long meeting yesterday where all the investigators got together, this is not a matter of whether or not there will be charges filed, it’s what charges will be filed.


~ ~ ~

The above Klein statements, particularly the one about having "evidence that shows what happened," as well as new physical evidence obtained and sent off to Quantico, all 4 entities being on the same page, all previous mentions of "crime related" things/verbiage from early on, an approaching "prosecutorial phase," and the "not if but what charges" will be filed, all that rules out (for me) that the baby simply wandered away and just hasn't been found.

• Incident happened on Federal land
• KIC investigating as a death case
• Still determining accident vs homicide with intent
• Closely approaching the Prosecutorial phase
• Everyone on the same page to include FBI, Bonneville, Lemhi, Klein
• There “is” evidence that shows what happened
• physical evidence obtained early in the case matched out later into the case
• Waiting on more lab tests to come back
• Couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) already on the way to East Coast
• Quantico is coming in to decipher information (1-28-16)
• nothing to indicate there was any other person involved
• 2 POI's w/ 2 axillary persons that we’re still vetting out
• not a matter of whether charges will be filed, it’s what charges

http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

 

[TxJan1971]

I think he says "none of the other dogs alerted".
. Raymonde I believe you are correct!


http://www.truecrimeradio.com/radio-archives/sheriff-lynn-bowerman-radio-archive-jan-2016/

After re-listening, I concur. Since I no longer have editing capabilities at this late point in the game, Bessie will have to make the correction. I will flag this post.


Bessie here is the correct verbiage:
11:43
SB: You know, we had a couple alerts you know that were just kind of, we consider nothing major, but um a dog reacts unusual in a certain area and so we put more dogs in there and then none of the other dogs alerted so, um…you know. Actually, it’s been not real positive from having those dogs in there. We didn’t have anything that really led us to a certain place within our 3 mile radius.

Post #58
11:43

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

 

[KayCherry]

I was just having a bad thought about the diesel......and it led me to Carbon Monoxide fumes.....ack....

I've been thinking along this line, if they let Lil DeOrr sleep in the truck, etc., they might have left him to go the bar - (possibly truck running?) just putting it out there.... I always wondered if the dogs smelled in/near the truck, as I believe they slept in the truck.

 

[katydid23]

Scenario 2. Something happens in the morning. DeOrr is injured. They go to the store to get him away from IR and ggp so they don't ask what happened. They get some candy to try and console him? He's filthy and bawling? They probably don't take him into the store to avoid people noticing his condition. They discuss what to do, and manage to quiet him down a bit.

They go back to the campsite. DeOrr is not looking good. ggp and IR see him sleeping. They leave him sleeping with ggp (they make.up the stuff about him playing in the dirt or whatever to try and establish that he was still alive and healthy at this point, knowing that ggp won't remember). Maybe they're still thinking DeOrr will wake up and be fine at this point? They go back to ggp and see that DeOrr has died. Vernal takes the body without ggp seeing and hauls off to dispose of it. Because DeOrr has only just died, the cadaver dogs don't hit on the truck.

This^^^ sounds about right---sadly enough. :sigh:

In my opinion, IF he had been accidentally injured, they'd have called 911 or driven him quickly to a doctor. If he had accidentally gotten in to someones meds, or fallen on a rock etc. , then I think he would have been taken in for treatment.

But what if he had been punished physically, a bit too severe? Or had gotten into an illegal stash?

 

[kammiemc]

While we consider/discuss all the various possible scenarios presented today, a couple of Klein’s statements stood out to me when I finally had the chance to listen to the January 28, 2016 interview with Klein/590KID Radio.

I thought I’d share some of my “bullet points” here just in case some of you may not have yet listened to and/or for anyone non hearing. Apologies if any of this has already been discussed. If nothing else, it can serve as a gentle reminder:

Klein:
I think a lot of people don’t understand that the "incident" happened up on federal land.

(This suggested (to me) that whatever happened to the baby happened at or around the camp/mountain and not someplace else and therefore would have had to occur either Thursday or Friday.)


Klein:
So that’s where we are. We’re investigating it as a death case
Do we believe this is an accidental death or do we believe this is a homicide? We are currently in that Stage which is Stage 3, it is deciphering which type of “incident” –
we’re still developing some evidence.


Klein:
There are specialists coming in from Quantico as we speak…uh… to decipher this information. We now have further evidence that has been discovered and is being sent off back to Quantico,


Klein:
There’s nothing to indicate there was any other person involved. There are other axillary issues that I can’t get into on the other two people that were on the mountain . We are engaged on that as well, so that’s where this case stands. We have two persons of interest with two axillary persons that we’re still vetting out.


Klein:
there is evidence… that shows what happened in this case. Now I’m not going to get into the evidence of what it is, because we’re quickly heading towards a prosecutorial phase, but the physical evidence that has been obtained early in the case has matched out later into the case, and as we have been very clear with both of the families is that…you know we’re waiting on some more lab tests to come back, and there was a couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) that are on their way already to the East Coast to be looked at,


Klein:
my feeling is after a very long meeting yesterday where all the investigators got together, this is not a matter of whether or not there will be charges filed, it’s what charges will be filed.


~ ~ ~

The above Klein statements, particularly the one about having "evidence that shows what happened," as well as new physical evidence obtained and sent off to Quantico, all 4 entities being on the same page, all previous mentions of "crime related" things/verbiage from early on, an approaching "prosecutorial phase," and the "not if but what charges" will be filed, all that rules out (for me) that the baby simply wandered away and just hasn't been found.

•Incident happened on Federal land
•KIC investigating as a death case
•Still determining accident vs homicide with intent
•Closely approaching the Prosecutorial phase
•Everyone on the same page to include FBI, Bonneville, Lemhi, Klein
•There “is” evidence that shows what happened
•physical evidence obtained early in the case matched out later into the case
•Waiting on more lab tests to come back
•Couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) already on the way to East Coast
•Quantico is coming in to decipher information (1-28-16)
•nothing to indicate there was any other person involved
•2 POI's w/ 2 axillary persons that we’re still vetting out
•not a matter of whether charges will be filed, it’s what charges

http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

Thanks for bulleting out these points. I did listen to both parts of the interview and I thought it was excellent. But I forgot some of the details. It really clarifies things, doesn't it?


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[Dee10]

I am going to repeat my theory because my opinion remains the same until more real facts come out.

The parents are not leveling with Sheriff Bowerman and their stories keep changing on details anyone would know. The truth is a constant. The reason they cannot consistently tell the truth is because when they planned their scenario they did not cover certain questions that might be asked. The parents have different answers when questioned. The lies were not planned very well, IMO. When LE got there that afternoon, their main objective was to find the reported missing child, IMO. It wasn't until later that the details were changing depending on whomever LE was talking with or to.

My theory is that either little DeOrr was never at that campsite or was passed off to someone soon after arriving. Little DeOrr could have been abused and have injuries they could not let be seen and passed off to someone. OR, since it seems the parents were having financial problems, little DeOrr could have been sold. They know that people open their hearts and wallets for a missing child. Maybe they know where little DeOrr is and he is alive somewhere he shouldn't be. I absolutely hope he has been passed off to someone who will show him the love and care he so deserves!

*Right now one theory is as good as another with the facts we have. Little DeOrr remains in my thoughts and prayers.

JMO

I'm jumping of your post on the BBM. One thing I believe many would agree with is these parents went out of their way not to seek attention locally or nationally. Someone recently mentioned some pictures were removed from the mother's open FB in the days after Deorr went missing. However, these two parents did not go the route of the Anthony's or the Baby Lisa case, selling pictures & paid interviews. Removing pictures is interesting, no matter what the motive IMO and it appears not to be selling photos.

 

[Mickshawn]

In other cases, the presence of large amounts of bleach or excessive cleaning of something, or even surveillance footage of someone buying bleach have been used as evidence to support a murder in the absence of a body.
Say your kid goes missing on a camping trip, and one of the first things you do is scrub your truck with bleach... That's pretty suspicious even if no blood is found.

And bleach has a really strong smell...That alone would be a huge red flag waving.

 

[kammiemc]

I'm jumping of your post on the BBM. One thing I believe many would agree with is these parents went out of their way not to seek attention locally or nationally. Someone recently mentioned some pictures were removed from the mother's open FB in the days after Deorr went missing. However, these two parents did not go the route of the Anthony's or the Baby Lisa case, selling pictures & paid interviews. Removing pictures is interesting, no matter what the motive IMO and it appears not to be selling photos.

My impression is that they wanted to keep the story as quiet as possible. It seemed the last thing they wanted was for it to get any meaningful attention from the press, even though they were saying they believed he was abducted. As much as they seemed fine with accepting donations, it seemed like they were hoping everyone would move on and forget about the whole thing. I wonder if they misjudged what a big deal it would turn into. Maybe they thought they could keep the disappearance reasonably contained if they didn't engage with the press beyond Idaho's Internet news!


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[Lillahazel]

While we consider/discuss all the various possible scenarios presented today, a couple of Klein’s statements stood out to me when I finally had the chance to listen to the January 28, 2016 interview with Klein/590KID Radio.

I thought I’d share some of my “bullet points” here just in case some of you may not have yet listened to and/or for anyone non hearing. Apologies if any of this has already been discussed. If nothing else, it can serve as a gentle reminder:

Klein:
I think a lot of people don’t understand that the "incident" happened up on federal land.

(This suggested (to me) that whatever happened to the baby happened at or around the camp/mountain and not someplace else and therefore would have had to occur either Thursday or Friday.)


Klein:
So that’s where we are. We’re investigating it as a death case
Do we believe this is an accidental death or do we believe this is a homicide? We are currently in that Stage which is Stage 3, it is deciphering which type of “incident” –
we’re still developing some evidence.


Klein:
There are specialists coming in from Quantico as we speak…uh… to decipher this information. We now have further evidence that has been discovered and is being sent off back to Quantico,


Klein:
There’s nothing to indicate there was any other person involved. There are other axillary issues that I can’t get into on the other two people that were on the mountain . We are engaged on that as well, so that’s where this case stands. We have two persons of interest with two axillary persons that we’re still vetting out.


Klein:
there is evidence… that shows what happened in this case. Now I’m not going to get into the evidence of what it is, because we’re quickly heading towards a prosecutorial phase, but the physical evidence that has been obtained early in the case has matched out later into the case, and as we have been very clear with both of the families is that…you know we’re waiting on some more lab tests to come back, and there was a couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) that are on their way already to the East Coast to be looked at,


Klein:
my feeling is after a very long meeting yesterday where all the investigators got together, this is not a matter of whether or not there will be charges filed, it’s what charges will be filed.


~ ~ ~

The above Klein statements, particularly the one about having "evidence that shows what happened," as well as new physical evidence obtained and sent off to Quantico, all 4 entities being on the same page, all previous mentions of "crime related" things/verbiage from early on, an approaching "prosecutorial phase," and the "not if but what charges" will be filed, all that rules out (for me) that the baby simply wandered away and just hasn't been found.

• Incident happened on Federal land
• KIC investigating as a death case
• Still determining accident vs homicide with intent
• Closely approaching the Prosecutorial phase
• Everyone on the same page to include FBI, Bonneville, Lemhi, Klein
• There “is” evidence that shows what happened
• physical evidence obtained early in the case matched out later into the case
• Waiting on more lab tests to come back
• Couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) already on the way to East Coast
• Quantico is coming in to decipher information (1-28-16)
• nothing to indicate there was any other person involved
• 2 POI's w/ 2 axillary persons that we’re still vetting out
• not a matter of whether charges will be filed, it’s what charges

http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

I still have a hard time taking what SB or Klein says literally. It's not that I think they are lying in anyway but I think that they have a way with words that make them extremely open ended. For example this first statement you posted about the "incident". I could completely agree with you that the "incident" could be interpreted as an actual crime/accident against DJ or could it be interpreted as the place where all the lies/stories were revealed, or could it be where he was sold, etc. In the beginning based solely on SB interviews it seemed to me the parents were innocent based on his verbiage but now that I know they are suspects and looking back on his interviews I can see how what he said could still be somewhat viable with them as suspects. I will say that SB changing his 99% sure to 100% sure about an abduction has made me rule that option out.

For now I will continue to hope that he was given to someone. The thing that drives me a little crazy though is how to some the worse thing that could happen to him is murder. Franky at this point I am no less empathetic to whatever the conclusion is. An accident coverup, a murder, a black market trade, etc still means thousands of people were lied to, resources were used, people were put in harms way searching, and most importantly an innocent child was used as a tool.

 

[kammiemc]

I still have a hard time taking what SB or Klein says literally. It's not that I think they are lying in anyway but I think that they have a way with words that make them extremely open ended. For example this first statement you posted about the "incident". I could completely agree with you that the "incident" could be interpreted as an actual crime/accident against DJ or could it be interpreted as the place where all the lies/stories were revealed, or could it be where he was sold, etc. In the beginning based solely on SB interviews it seemed to me the parents were innocent based on his verbiage but now that I know they are suspects and looking back on his interviews I can see how what he said could still be somewhat viable with them as suspects. I will say that SB changing his 99% sure to 100% sure about an abduction has made me rule that option out.

For now I will continue to hope that he was given to someone. The thing that drives me a little crazy though is how to some the worse thing that could happen to him is murder. Franky at this point I am no less empathetic to whatever the conclusion is. An accident coverup, a murder, a black market trade, etc still means thousands of people were lied to, resources were used, people were put in harms way searching, and most importantly an innocent child was used as a tool.

Klein ruled out DeOrr being taken by a third party (including forced, planned and adopted). I agree that a lot of what he says can be open to interpretation, but some things he (and Bowerman) says are pretty darn clear. I believe what he is saying, but I get how others might feel less certain.


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[DatelineFan]

My impression is that they wanted to keep the story as quiet as possible. It seemed the last thing they wanted was for it to get any meaningful attention from the press, even though they were saying they believed he was abducted. As much as they seemed fine with accepting donations, it seemed like they were hoping everyone would move on and forget about the whole thing. I wonder if they misjudged what a big deal it would turn into. Maybe they thought they could keep the disappearance reasonably contained if they didn't engage with the press beyond Idaho's Internet news!


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I agree! I think they're shocked that there's been so much public interest. It's really sad. It feels like people like us are more interested in what happened to Deorr and solving this mystery. This should NEVER be the case! I think it's despicable.

 

[neesaki]

And bleach has a really strong smell...That alone would be a huge red flag waving.

Wouldn't it also bleach the color out of the surface that they used it on? Not many things that I know of are immune to that effect of chlorine bleach unless it's a hard surface like tile or concrete, etc. . jmo

 

[kammiemc]

For what it's worth, I don't have a theory. I believe LE, FBI and Klein that the parents know what happened to their son and where he is right now. I believe they have been lying since day one (has always seemed that way IMO) and that they don't seem to have guilt or concern about any part of the situation, except FB gossip about them.

I believe Klein when he says there was no third party involved. No passing off. No wandering. No animal grabbing him. No parents innocently discovering he was gone and searching.

And I believe Klein that the sweet little angel is deceased and there is evidence as to how that might have happened. But what is unknown is why, as well as what the other two POI's are privy to.

But as for whether he was ever at the campsite, died in IF, the car, at the campsite or on the mountain, whether it was an accident, punishment overdone, neglect leading to death or flat out murder, I just can't begin to guess. Anything is possible. I just can't help but keep it in the framework of what the investigators have determined and what they have shared.

Oh and I am not inclined to love, pray for or forgive the parents at this point and likely never will be!

Since we're sharing theories!


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[gliving]

From TxJan1971's excellent post:

"and there was a couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) that are on their way already to the East Coast to be looked at,"

Now, what could those couple of items be? It probably won't be anything from the mountain as it's covered in snow.


And what in the world happened to Deorr that could explain the parents' willingness to be labeled suspects in their child's death, but unwillingness to tell the truth? I can't imagine anything so important to them that they would deny their child his legacy of love and respect. Pfft.

 

[TxJan1971]

I still have a hard time taking what SB or Klein says literally. It's not that I think they are lying in anyway but I think that they have a way with words that make them extremely open ended. For example this first statement you posted about the "incident". I could completely agree with you that the "incident" could be interpreted as an actual crime/accident against DJ or could it be interpreted as the place where all the lies/stories were revealed, or could it be where he was sold, etc. In the beginning based solely on SB interviews it seemed to me the parents were innocent based on his verbiage but now that I know they are suspects and looking back on his interviews I can see how what he said could still be somewhat viable with them as suspects. I will say that SB changing his 99% sure to 100% sure about an abduction has made me rule that option out.

For now I will continue to hope that he was given to someone. The thing that drives me a little crazy though is how to some the worse thing that could happen to him is murder. Franky at this point I am no less empathetic to whatever the conclusion is. An accident coverup, a murder, a black market trade, etc still means thousands of people were lied to, resources were used, people were put in harms way searching, and most importantly an innocent child was used as a tool.

BBM
FWIW, as far as the suggestion that he may have been sold, I'm just adding this since this was another bullet from the same link/interview with 590KID Radio

Some people have conjectured the family sold the baby. Again, I assure you, the United States government and law enforcement has watched money flow. They have watched uh…they’ve watched this…that theory very closely, and again, there is NO evidence that leads us to that. So then we go to the third theory. What possibly could have happened up on that hill?

BBM2
I'm glad you can still be hopeful he is alive or with someone who is caring for him, and I wish you much needed love and comfort if that is ultimately proven to not be the case. I can say I am still on the fence, but if I were digging deep for the truth, I would have to admit my intuition tells me baby Deorr is not alive, he is not happy or dancing or loving or missing the person(s) who put him where he is if intentional, whoever that may be. IMO, regardless of accident or intentional, IMOO he can only be free to move on to the happy, joyous, eternal state when he is given the dignity and proper burial he so truly deserves by those who have loved him. JMOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think a truck switch is a possibility. There is definitely something weird with the diesel.


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I'm full on your side and others' with the truck (car) switch as a possibility!
I think about home search: police would have searched their cars at home if not already searched at the campground, I assume? How did the parents avoid discovery of evidence there at home, I wonder.

 

[kammiemc]

From TxJan1971's excellent post:

"and there was a couple more items taken into custody yesterday (1-27-16) that are on their way already to the East Coast to be looked at,"

Now, what could those couple of items be? It probably won't be anything from the mountain as it's covered in snow.


And what in the world happened to Deorr that could explain the parents' willingness to be labeled suspects in their child's death, but unwillingness to tell the truth? I can't imagine anything so important to them that they would deny their child his legacy of love and respect. Pfft.

I was thinking about that too, gliving, and I don't like where it leads me. Because logic says that whatever the parents are covering has to be worse (I think much worse) than falsifying a police report, lying to LE, FBI, the media, their friends and family and allowing the public to donate tens of thousands toward "the search" for a son whose location they know.

But, above all that, like you say, there is what they have been willing to do to their son. The breach of responsibility and respect to his little body and spirit, and to all those who love him, is so way beyond alarming and disgusting.

What could they feel is worthy of defending, preserving, protecting in their own lives once they have pulled things on their son that go against the core of what it means to be a parent.

It makes me think that the stakes must be HIGH. Whatever their involvement was in their son's death, it must be way more incriminating than the crimes around trying to pull off a 7-month charade about their son's disappearance. I am just so glad that they were NOT able to pull it off in the end. There is a tiny bit of social justice in them being outed as suspects and liars, regardless of what happens in court.


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[Lillahazel]

BBM
FWIW, as far as the suggestion that he may have been sold, I'm just adding this since this was another bullet from the same link/interview with 590KID Radio

Some people have conjectured the family sold the baby. Again, I assure you, the United States government and law enforcement has watched money flow. They have watched uh…they’ve watched this…that theory very closely, and again, there is NO evidence that leads us to that. So then we go to the third theory. What possibly could have happened up on that hill?

BBM2
I'm glad you can still be hopeful he is alive or with someone who is caring for him, and I wish you much needed love and comfort if that is ultimately proven to not be the case. I can say I am still on the fence, but if I were digging deep for the truth, I would have to admit my intuition tells me baby Deorr is not alive, he is not happy or dancing or loving or missing the person(s) who put him where he is if intentional, whoever that may be. IMO, regardless of accident or intentional, IMOO he can only be free to move on to the happy, joyous, eternal state when he is given the dignity and proper burial he so truly deserves by those who have loved him. JMOO

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly I have to say I teared up a little reading this. I know the logical part of me knows he is no longer with us. This particular story has really tugged on my heartstrings. I don't know if it's because of the somewhat close proximity to home or the fact that my own toddler resembles those innocent brown doe eyes and crooked smile. I literally scoured every Idahoan campground we went to last summer keeping my eyes out for any sign of DJ. If/when we do find out what happens I know I will grieve quite deeply for a child that I have never met.