ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[DatelineFan]

I'm sure you mean bruises and swelling...and simply put..I've seen it before.

You might also notice in that photo the index finger bruise extends to the inner right eye.



jmo

Sorry. I refuse to "diagnose" abuse from a photo. Trust me, I definitely advocate for children. I worked in an emergency shelter for children who had just been removed from their homes by law enforcement or DHS. I have seen unspeakable cases of child abuse. It was horrifying. But we have nothing to go on here, but a photograph. I'm not saying that they didn't abuse Deorr. They might have, but the photo isn't evidence of that without more information.

 

[Tr.]

Sorry. I refuse to "diagnose" abuse from a photo. Trust me, I definitely advocate for children. I worked in an emergency shelter for children who had just been removed from their homes by law enforcement or DHS. I have seen unspeakable cases of child abuse. It was horrifying. But we have nothing to go on here, but a photograph. I'm not saying that they didn't abuse Deorr. They might have, but the photo isn't evidence of that without more information.

And I respect your opinion and experience...hell maybe it's dirt but the mere fact that you referred to them as bruise tells me that you know the difference.
Thanks for all that you do.

 

[desert-blue]

OT, but I just saw this article posted today: http://www.localnews8.com/news/Salmon-woman-charged-with-murder-after-baby-dies-from-meth-overdose/38131570
It is in no way related to DeOrr's case, but it did occur in Lemhi County and involves the death of a baby. I thought it was interesting that the investigation has been ongoing for the past year. It sounds like the investigative team has taken its time before pressing charges.

ETA: Here is a better (more in-depth) article, if anyone's interested: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/02/heart-breaking-infant-death-in-salmon/

 

[Lillahazel]

I'm going to go a little off topic here. Does anyone have any knowledge of the game Criminal Case? I'm only asking because I noticed both JM and IR have it in common on Facebook. Can you meet people on that game? Is it possible it could give you tips for hiding a crime? Seems far fetched but thought I would ask.

 

[pepelepolecat]

The bruises on this baby's head are in the shape of an adult size large left hand. The most prominent bruise resembles an index finger and swelling is evident where the thumb would be on the baby's right temple. The other bruises clearly show finger marks.
This injury would have happened by slapping downward with the hand and then squeezing...or basically grabbing him by the head from above.

Always..JMO

RSBM

Absolutely this is bruising, and cannot be 'explained' away by the lighting in the photo or just normal skin discoloration ; imo.
Wonder what other photos are being 'hidden' ?
Disgusting.

From Pepelepolecats' post (RSBM):

Meanwhile, DeOrr didn't even have blue eyes, and that fact wasn't relayed to the proper people for how long again?

Sorry, I'd mentioned his blue eyes in a past post-- when was this disclosed, about his eye color ? Not sure exactly why I've thought until now, that his eyes were blue.
MOO

You probably thought it because that's what the eye color was listed on the missing poster. I have no idea when or if they ever corrected it. I know they were still listed as blue the last time I checked. That may have changed since then, though.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I'm going to go a little off topic here. Does anyone have any knowledge of the game Criminal Case? I'm only asking because I noticed both JM and IR have it in common on Facebook. Can you meet people on that game? Is it possible it could give you tips for hiding a crime? Seems far fetched but thought I would ask.

I play, but no, it won't give you any ways to commit any crimes (in fact, some of their crime solving techniques are laughably silly), and afaik, you can't meet people because the only people you see are your friends who play.

 

[Lillahazel]

I play, but no, it won't give you any ways to commit any crimes (in fact, some of their crime solving techniques are laughably silly), and afaik, you can't meet people because the only people you see are your friends who play.

Thank you, I honestly didn't know just noticed something they had in common.

 

[EllieBee]

RSBM

Absolutely this is bruising, and cannot be 'explained' away by the lighting in the photo or just normal skin discoloration ; imo.
Wonder what other photos are being 'hidden' ?
Disgusting.

From Pepelepolecats' post (RSBM):

Sorry, I'd mentioned his blue eyes in a past post-- when was this disclosed, about his eye color ? Not sure exactly why I've thought until now, that his eyes were blue.
MOO

You probably thought it because that's what the eye color was listed on the missing poster. I have no idea when or if they ever corrected it. I know they were still listed as blue the last time I checked. That may have changed since then, though.

DeOrr's eye color was never corrected. The better to obfuscate, my dear.

 

[DatelineFan]

And I respect your opinion and experience...hell maybe it's dirt but the mere fact that you referred to them as bruise tells me that you know the difference.
Thanks for all that you do.

I definitely think there's bruising!

Hey, for what it's worth, I'm firm on my position based on my expertise and experience. NOT because I have warm, fuzzy feelings towards VDK and JM.

 

[white rabbit]

omg no no no no...not one of us are qualified to assess photo'd bruises, if you are, get Bessie to verify. I suspect the parents and everyone around them but absolutely do not see child abuse in any photo. is there wrongdoing? well your guess is good as mine. but no way am I going to suspect nor accuse based on raw web shots with dirty faces. I have three boys and g-d help me if I post their photos here. holy heck you'd call dyfs on me in a nanosecond.

Puyallup, totally agree with your posts.

 

[gliving]

Then pile on all the pleas from the parents about social media gossip. If my child was missing I wouldn't care if anyone was against me. In fact I'd say bring them on. With me or against me you would still be getting my baby's face out to others and the bottom line is that's really all that matters.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/parents-of-missing-2yearold-talk-about-social-media/36054316

In this video Jessica says people are saying mean things about how she loved her son and how she treated him. These must be persons who knew Deorr otherwise who would be aware of their interactions


http://legacy.ktvb.com/story/news/c...-parents-suspects-his-disappearance/79301014/

Sheriff Bowerman said he still hopes the public can help investigators by contacting authorities with any information that could help the investigation.

"We're asking the public at this time to come forward with any information that they might have concerning the parents and their interaction with their son DeOrr that they might have witnessed," he said."

Sadly I think we need to keep an open mind about past abuse. Especially considering the parents won't tell the truth about what happened to their child. They are not putting his best interests first.

 

[Midge Montana]

I believe the parents are in this up to their necks, but...
There's no way I'd label abuse from photos of a bruised kid.
My son is alive and well at age 27, and was rarely even lightly spanked as a child. However, we all often joke that we can't find a photo of him after the age he started walking that he doesn't have a bandaid on. That child always always always had a scrape, scab, bump or bruise on him at all times. He was just a rough and tumble, fearless busy child. He never broke a bone, but I can't count the times he had stitches in his life. He was, and still is, all boy and wide-*advertiser censored*-open at that.
So there is no way I could with good conscience say that DeOrr was abused because he 'may' have bruises in photos.
If someone comes forth to answer the sheriff's inquiry about how they "interacted" with him and gives revealing information I'd reconsider. But based solely on photos? Nope, no way.

 

[desert-blue]

Hypothetically speaking, if DeOrr was deceased prior to the trip, I don't understand how on earth DK and JM thought they were going to pull off a camping trip/staged child disappearance with two other people present? They hadn't met IR (supposedly), so how could they have known what he was like and that they'd be able to "trick" him into thinking DeOrr was there??? Maybe they thought they could fool GGPA, but it seems like a huge risk for them to think another person (a stranger they'd never met) would be so oblivious that he wouldn't notice (and tell LE) that there was no child present. Did they plan to liquor them up in hopes they'd simply not remember anything? It seems to me that going camping with two other people and trying to stage an abduction/disappearance to explain your missing child (that wasn't there in the first place) doesn't make a lot of sense. If something happened to DeOrr in Idaho Falls prior to the trip, there are a lot of other ways they could have staged his disappearance that wouldn't directly involve other people (and risk being ratted out by one or both of them). I guess what I'm saying is that it seems more logical to me that DeOrr did set out with them on the camping trip (alive). I'm just not convinced he was ever out walking around at the campsite, though. What on earth happened to him? :-( ugh

 

[haven71]

The ones where he is on a beach, holding a stick. I'm not sure exactly when they were taken, but he is within the same age bracket. There are no physical signs of abuse in those pictures. That's not to say that things hadn't changed recently, but is there anything to suggest that they had?
If we are assuming that the parents had something to do with his disappearance because of their inability to be forthcoming and consistent, I think that's reasonable. But the abuse thing... I just don't see it. Unless there is actual evidence or family/friend/acquaintance testimony that abuse may have been taking place, I don't see any reason to suspect it.

I'm pretty far behind tonight but wanted to quickly comment on this.

If prior abuse was an issue (and I feel it was) they probably wouldn't post any pictures that could document the abuse.

If the abuse was chronic, likely Deorr would've had injuries healing at different rates...old wounds, new wounds, and any in between.

I personally have not seen any photos to suggest this, for the before mentioned reason. However, I'd be more wary of the pictures they didn't take than the ones they did.

 

[persimmon]

I don't know WHERE I read this, but since we were all discussing pre-camping sightings of Deorr . . wasn't there a "story" that the day before (Wednesday), Jessica was running around doing errands with Deorr? And that actually was the day that her mother (??!!) asked her to go on the trip to help look after GGP? I had the impression that Jessica was visiting? Yo no se! Does anyone else remember this? Sorry, no link, had a migraine earlier today, feeling very tired and lazy!!!

I don't remember hearing this....can you divulge more?

 

[persimmon]

And I respect your opinion and experience...hell maybe it's dirt but the mere fact that you referred to them as bruise tells me that you know the difference.
Thanks for all that you do.

It's very easy to speculate and I'm guilty as well. I might find them guilty of drug use as we stand on evidence simply because I have this feeling that it explains a great deal. Still wavering about abuse, but I've convicted them in my mind of drug use. I'm trying to not get stuck on the idea.

 

[haven71]

I totally get that others may be more readily willing or convinced than I am to believe child abuse is the most plausible scenario and/or what occurred.

However, here’s something to think about.

If you were impaneled on a jury today and tasked by the judge with determining by EOB today whether or not two parents are guilty of child abuse, based solely on what sometimes nonspecific statements we have received from the beginning of the case until now, as stated by SB, Penner, Nate, any/all MSM reporters, any/all family members, IR, Nancy Grace, etc., and furthermore,

• You have no hard copy documentation/CPS file/photos specifically related to or demonstrating child abuse for this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no existing ER records to view on this child or any other child ever under their care that even remotely intimated abuse

• You have no existing medical records of suspicious broken bones, bruises, nutrition/weight issues, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no statements from anyone who can say they witnessed or even suspected out of control discipline or beatings, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of SMI (serious mental illness) on any of the parties

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of chemical dependency by any of the parties

• Etc. etc. etc. too many more to list

Question 1: Would you vote the parents guilty of child abuse? Guilty or not guilty based on only what we have thus far from the above stated individuals and/their respective statements?

Question 2: Reverse the situation - If you and your husband/bf/significant other were being accused of child abuse and your jury had only the same statements as above and had none of the above tangible pieces of evidence bulleted, would you expect the jury to convict you and/or your DH/significant other of child abuse?

That’s the only point I want to make. Right now, there is not history of child abuse for me to even think about accusing the parents. Show me something. Anything. I’m willing to be convinced. Just because I think something doesn’t make it reality, at least for me. Hope that clears up my position. I can get there. I just need more and can’t in good conscience convict someone with anything less. I would expect the same from them if the situation were reversed. That’s all…

Hugs to all my fellow sleuthers who mainly want justice for baby Deorr
:loveyou:

This case is what brought me to web sleuths, and really the only forum I've participated extensively on at all.

I admit there is certainly lack of evidence.

Still, I'm a rookie sleuther, so I am more prone to talk about "gut instincts" and such much moreso than you veterans. I imagine in time, I will be able to remain more objective.

Anyway, just admitting I entertain scenarios a lot even when there isn't a whole heck of a lot to go on...

 

[persimmon]

Thank you. Thank you. To me, this is not a beautiful photo. This is a photo of a child who is profoundly sad, distanced, and hurt. Those who have eyes will see. Thank you.

That is a very perceptive analysis of the photo. I never saw it before, but it actually does convey those emotions. Very sad...

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Does anyone know why Jessica lost custody of her older two children? I'm seeing rumors about drugs, abuse, neglect, etc. But none of it seems to be backed up with anything substantial.

 

[The Apparition]

Exactly....drug use or a beating that went too far are the only things that I personally can see two sane adults agreeing to cover up. To hide your child's body rather than calling an ambulance; to deny them a proper burial; to lie about what happened to your family, LE and the public; to do that for months and not crack and come clean...

It just doesn't make sense to me personally that DeOrr died in a hot car, or wandered off and drowned in the crick, or was accidentally hit by the car or anything like that. They wouldn't have gone to these insane lengths to cover up something like that imo.

I feel a little bad just speculating but their isn't enough hard evidence to do much else, so here goes.

I've said this before but if everyone (all 4 people) are "in" on the cover-up I say they were cooking meth in the woods. There are numerous chemicals that are super lethal/toxic in the process so it wouldn't be crazy to think a kid could get into something lethal. If everyone was in on the cookout they would all be vested in covering it up and making the lab disappear before calling LE. From everything I know labs are pretty easy to set up and then it's just like baking cookies (highly toxic, potential explosive cookies).

If this is only a VDK and JM cover-up sadly I have to go with some kind of beating gone too far kind of event. Like Ray and many others have said, why else would parents cover this up? If you made a mistake and your child died I just don't see how you could let this thing drag on like this.