ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[pepelepolecat]

I agree. I will also emphasize that I have no concrete proof other than instinct. I will even go one step further and say that in the first interview JM seemed to put out a "wife beating" vibe to me (physical and/or emotional). It seemed like she wasn't really aloud to speak and when she did speak she was quickly tuned out. She hung her head immediately after, almost as though she knew she was in trouble. I guess they could have also purposely only had DK speak. Maybe they planned it that way so there was only one public speaker. It would make it easier to not have different stories to the public.

I also see a few photos that MAY show some abuse. There was one with a broken arm, one that in my opinion seemed to hide a broken arm, and for some reason the very first photo I saw floating around FB that was put out by DK's twin sister didn't look right to me. He was standing by a lake hold a ball, pretty dirty, and leaning quite a bit and he just looks off to me. Then, I see all these smiling and genuinely happy pictures. I honestly have never been around a child that was abused (that I know of). Is it pretty common for a child that's been abused to have so many moments of happiness? Or are the photos smoking mirrors? I also find it interesting that SB and Klein asked for people to come forward if they observed an interaction with the parents and DJ.

Yes. There's a graphic somewhere showing the cycle of abuse that makes it crystal clear what's going on. Suffice it to say, immediately after abuse, there's often a honeymoon period in which the abuser/s "make up" to the abused person, and this can include all kinds of spoiling and "loving."

http://www.domesticviolenceroundtable.org/domestic-violence-cycle.html -- this applies to domestic violence, but it's just as applicable to child abuse, ime.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Not all abuse is going to leave obvious marks, and some parents are really good at hiding the bruises where they won't be seen by others (thinking diaper area, specifically, but anything that would be regularly hidden under clothes would work).

I'm not sure if I believe DeOrr was regularly abused or not, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility. I hope not, though.

I agree. Not all abuse presents in an obvious manner. But in this specific case, it seems that the only thing suggesting DeOrr may have been abused is that his parents aren't being honest about their knowledge of his disappearance. If we're assuming a violent end to this child's life, it would make sense that there would be preceding violence, specifically abuse. But as of yet, we don't have any indication that DeOrr met a maliciously violent end, and that makes the basis for the assumption of abuse a shaky one, without further evidence supporting it.

 

[Rayemonde]

A child can be killed the very first time they are physically abused. It may be a minor distinction for some, but it would mean the difference between an unintentional killing and intentional murder. And I agree that there has to be some reason they would lie and cover up his death. I cannot believe that anyone would go to these lengths if it were a true accident.

Exactly! It only takes once to completely fly off the handle and hit your kid in the head... One blow could do it although if it was literally one blow to the head (and he had no older bruises on him) I think they would call 911 and say he'd fallen and hit his head on a rock or something, so I think it would have to be more than that.

I haven't seen any evidence at all that the parents are drugs users. No arrest records or anything, and the only evidence I've seen offered up is that Jessica looks really twitchy in her videos. I did think VK might possibly have track marks on his arm in one video (the one with the orange DeOrr t-shirt), but it turned out he had an old tattoo there! So there was a perfectly innocent explanation.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I totally get that others may be more readily willing or convinced than I am to believe child abuse is the most plausible scenario and/or what occurred.

However, here’s something to think about.

If you were impaneled on a jury today and tasked by the judge with determining by EOB today whether or not two parents are guilty of child abuse, based solely on what sometimes nonspecific statements we have received from the beginning of the case until now, as stated by SB, Penner, Nate, any/all MSM reporters, any/all family members, IR, Nancy Grace, etc., and furthermore,

• You have no hard copy documentation/CPS file/photos specifically related to or demonstrating child abuse for this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no existing ER records to view on this child or any other child ever under their care that even remotely intimated abuse

• You have no existing medical records of suspicious broken bones, bruises, nutrition/weight issues, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no statements from anyone who can say they witnessed or even suspected out of control discipline or beatings, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of SMI (serious mental illness) on any of the parties

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of chemical dependency by any of the parties

• Etc. etc. etc. too many more to list

Question 1: Would you vote the parents guilty of child abuse? Guilty or not guilty based on only what we have thus far from the above stated individuals and/their respective statements?

Question 2: Reverse the situation - If you and your husband/bf/significant other were being accused of child abuse and your jury had only the same statements as above and had none of the above tangible pieces of evidence bulleted, would you expect the jury to convict you and/or your DH/significant other of child abuse?

That’s the only point I want to make. Right now, there is not history of child abuse for me to even think about accusing the parents. Show me something. Anything. I’m willing to be convinced. Just because I think something doesn’t make it reality, at least for me. Hope that clears up my position. I can get there. I just need more and can’t in good conscience convict someone with anything less. I would expect the same from them if the situation were reversed. That’s all…

Hugs to all my fellow sleuthers who mainly want justice for baby Deorr
:loveyou:

As a juror, I would have to say no.

But as a websleuther, who has had my own life experiences and observations, I have no problem pursuing this avenue of sleuthing. I was an abused child once upon a time, and there were no records, no witnesses, nothing other than a "SMI" that would give anyone the least pause. And yet I sustained physical trauma that left permanent damage and emotional trauma that left just as permanent damage. So I have no trouble believing that kids can be and often are abused "under the radar" all. the. time.

jmo, jme, moo

 

[Rayemonde]

I agree. Not all abuse presents in an obvious manner. But in this specific case, it seems that the only thing suggesting DeOrr may have been abused is that his parents aren't being honest about their knowledge of his disappearance. If we're assuming a violent end to this child's life, it would make sense that there would be preceding violence, specifically abuse. But as of yet, we don't have any indication that DeOrr met a maliciously violent end, and that makes the basis for the assumption of abuse a shaky one, without further evidence supporting it.

Then what happened to him? I've followed a lot of missing / deceased kid cases, and I can think of literally 2 or 3 cases where the parents claimed to have covered up an accident or neglect, and the autopsy couldn't prove it was *not* an accident; and they all involved heavy drug use (which would be another assumption in this case). Parents covering up an accident or neglect and hiding their kid's body and then lying about it - it just doesn't happen in the real world imo.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

The lack of physical evidence at the campsite, the fact that absolutely nothing turned up during the extensive searches, and the lack of witnesses putting DeOrr at the campsite make me think that whatever happened to DeOrr, it happened elsewhere, before the camping trip. Abuse is certainly a possibility, but it's one I'm hesitant to cling to, because there is nothing to outright support it. Thank you, Rayemonde, for clarifying about the drug use rumors.
I did think it was a possibility that JM had relapsed, wasn't able to pay adequate attention to DeOrr, and that he'd gotten himself into trouble while she was indisposed. That would have explained why she felt the need to cover it up with this weird camping trip instead of seeking help. But if there's nothing to substantiate the drug suspicions, it's a baseless suspicion.

 

[Lillahazel]

Do we know how old he was in this picture? He looks like a new walker to me. the fact that he's leaned forward and sort of has his arms puffed outwards looks like a new toddler trying to get his bearings. A weird footing, for sure. But I have pictures of my kiddo in similar stances at ~15 months.

I guess the part that bothered me the most was this was the first picture I saw posted of him. Why didn't they use a more recent one that was more clear?

 

[TxJan1971]

But in this case, the child has disappeared mysteriously, and it is presumed that he is dead and his parents have covered it up. That makes a *huge* difference.

Yes, I totally understand, and agree with you! 100% The two people who were "supposed" to love & protect this beautiful, innocent baby boy through which their own lifeblood flows failed him! Intentionally or unintentionally. It doesn't matter. The child is gone and paid the price for irresponsibility (at a minimum)!!! I only pray he did not suffer!

 

[Rayemonde]

The lack of physical evidence at the campsite, the fact that absolutely nothing turned up during the extensive searches, and the lack of witnesses putting DeOrr at the campsite make me think that whatever happened to DeOrr, it happened elsewhere, before the camping trip. Abuse is certainly a possibility, but it's one I'm hesitant to cling to, because there is nothing to outright support it. Thank you, Rayemonde, for clarifying about the drug use rumors.
I did think it was a possibility that JM had relapsed, wasn't able to pay adequate attention to DeOrr, and that he'd gotten himself into trouble while she was indisposed. That would have explained why she felt the need to cover it up with this weird camping trip instead of seeking help. But if there's nothing to substantiate the drug suspicions, it's a baseless suspicion.

Exactly....drug use or a beating that went too far are the only things that I personally can see two sane adults agreeing to cover up. To hide your child's body rather than calling an ambulance; to deny them a proper burial; to lie about what happened to your family, LE and the public; to do that for months and not crack and come clean...

It just doesn't make sense to me personally that DeOrr died in a hot car, or wandered off and drowned in the crick, or was accidentally hit by the car or anything like that. They wouldn't have gone to these insane lengths to cover up something like that imo.

 

[Dee10]

But in this case, the child has disappeared mysteriously, and it is presumed that he is dead and his parents have covered it up. That makes a *huge* difference.

Just to add to that the LE are looking for information from the public if they have seen anything unusual regarding interactions between the parent(s) and Deorr. That's a pretty bold thing, to ask people to come forward, but they obviously have a reason for doing so.

IMO they are at the point of trying to determine accident vs. homicide. Personally, I have no opinion (at this time) but regardless nobody here is in the position of convicting anyone or declaring someone innocent, except in their own mind.

It will be very interesting to see who is charged with what? I know they have a whole lot more than we know, but I'm not sure they are at that point yet. I hope, I'm wrong but although I believe they are building a case, layer by layer; I don't see an arrest anytime soon without something substantial and all the test results back.

 

[mommylicious]

I guess the part that bothered me the most was this was the first picture I saw posted of him. Why didn't they use a more recent one that was more clear?

It may just be a favorite picture of theirs? I get that most people would try to pick the most recent picture but his appearance wasn't that changed and that may just be the first one they thought of when someone asked for a picture.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Exactly....drug use or a beating that went too far are the only things that I personally can see two sane adults agreeing to cover up. To hide your child's body rather than calling an ambulance; to deny them a proper burial; to lie about what happened to your family, LE and the public; to do that for months and not crack and come clean...

It just doesn't make sense to me personally that DeOrr died in a hot car, or wandered off and drowned in the crick, or was accidentally hit by the car or anything like that. They wouldn't have gone to these insane lengths to cover up something like that imo.

Mmhmm. If the Sheriff B is right about the couple being deceitful -and I trust that he is- this cover up was almost certainly an act of self preservation for the parents. That alone is criminal, and completely goes against everything a parent should be. But while abuse is a definite possibility, I'm still hesitant to jump on it. There is a multitude of things the couple may have felt the need to hide. I know a lot of people have mentioned hunches and instincts, and my own instinct is that this child was loved and cared for until *something* happened. I've been able to find nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

[TxJan1971]

As a juror, I would have to say no.

But as a websleuther, who has had my own life experiences and observations, I have no problem pursuing this avenue of sleuthing. I was an abused child once upon a time, and there were no records, no witnesses, nothing other than a "SMI" that would give anyone the least pause. And yet I sustained physical trauma that left permanent damage and emotional trauma that left just as permanent damage. So I have no trouble believing that kids can be and often are abused "under the radar" all. the. time.

jmo, jme, moo

As a juror, I would have voted No as well, but ONLY because the decision is based on what we currently know via statements alone.

(I would be perfectly willing to change my vote, but I need more than just what is out there now. I also find it hard to sleuth a child abuse theory because we are limited to MSM articles/statements.)

Most importantly, I'm so very sorry you experienced abuse as a child. I can only hope that you have found all the love you truly deserve in this world!! I'm sending some extra your way to keep on hand should you ever need to know that someone cares! Having an abusive life experience makes you extremely valuable as a fellow sleuther as you can help educate us as to the realities of child abuse. Thank you for sharing your perspective!!

I also agree that we should sleuth or discuss any theory, especially when it involves finding out what happened to an innocent child. They cannot speak for themselves, so it is out duty and obligation to do what we can to prevent abuse of any kind. We need to assume the "It takes a village to raise a child mentality." Together, we can all make a difference. All it takes is one person to make a difference.

:loveyou:

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Another thought- if DeOrr, Jr. was not with the family on the camping trip, what was the significance/intention of DeOrr, Sr. taking off in the truck? The official story line is that he wanted to be sure he could get good reception. But if the parents knew there was no chance LE was going to find him, why would they be in such a rush to get into contact with LE that they wanted to place two separate calls from multiple locations?
I don't have an answer/theory for this. I'm just looking for the opinions of others.

Edit- I'm especially interested in this, as he went out of his way to explain his reasons for leaving in the truck, without any prompting.

 

[Lillahazel]

It may just be a favorite picture of theirs? I get that most people would try to pick the most recent picture but his appearance wasn't that changed and that may just be the first one they thought of when someone asked for a picture.

It may be their favorite picture but if you're wanting the public to help find your child and you obviously have access to many current photos why use this one? When I first saw it I would have thought I was looking for an 18 month old child not one that's closer to three. I personally can't make out any features on that photo other than his hair and eye color.

 

[Lillahazel]

Also just thinking out loud here. Did anyone else point out that DK had to correct himself on how old DJ was in the first interview?

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

His left knee/foot looks... off, deformed.. Something. It's so hard to tell from pictures, especially when you are looking to see something. He could just be standing on a rock. He wasn't born with a club foot, was he? We'd have heard that, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think this picture was taken the summer before he disappeared.

 

[persimmon]

Drug use has long been a rumor regarding this case. Some originated on SM and then there was JMs twitchiness and DVK tweakiness. For me, it has been their overall behavior and lack of concern that has always made me question if drugs are involved. Drug addicts have very mixed up priorities and so d these two.

Somebody posted about pics that suggested at best, poor parenting but hinted at much worse such as abuse. This individual searched JMs Fb page from day one and by day four, the pics were gone and as I pointed out new pics of DeOrr were posted. I brought it up because I thought it was strange that she only posted pics of him after July 10. Regardless, I trust that this sleuther saw photos that would have been incriminating. Just putting it out there.

But, as it stands we can only speculate. If I were a juror I could not in good faith render a guilty verdict without evidence they harmed their child. But SB asked for specific witness accounts for a reason. Lots of circumstantial evidence....but cases can bevtried and won on just that.

 

[persimmon]

Also just thinking out loud here. Did anyone else point out that DK had to correct himself on how old DJ was in the first interview?

I think it was more of a defensive maneuver of rounding up because it made them look less neglectful. Allowing a two year old to wander back to GGF sounds much worse than the same for a three year old.

 

[MBK]

Statements re: when Baby Last Seen (note the dates!)
. . . .

SB
01-28-16

04:09
TG: Prior the camping trip, when was Deorr last seen by someone other than his parents? Do you know?

04:15
SB: You know I know Bonneville County detectives have followed up on that particular aspect of the investigation, but to the best of my knowledge, from the time that they left Idaho Falls on July 9th which was in the early afternoon or early evening, uh, you know we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

EARLY AFTERNOON OR EARLY EVENING!

Whoa.

Big difference there.

I mean, okay, late afternoon or early evening, parse the difference, it's summer, it's light later . . okay, okay, but EARLY afternoon or EARLY evening?

And the sheriff isn't clear which (because VK and JM gave different accounts of the timeline . . . most likely)!!!

Did VK not work on THURSDAY, either? (if they left early afternoon) These people strike me as living week to week, hand to mouth, surprised that he can miss so much work . . .

If they left in the early afternoon, that gives them a heck of a lot more leeway in terms of the timeline. Thanks for finding the quote TXJan, it blew my mind.