ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[K.L.Puyallup]

All very valid. Hunches, feelings, instincts and suspicions are valuable. I'm not certain that there wasn't abuse going on; I just haven't found any evidence to support it, and therefore find it hard to sort of hypothesize around it. The parents have acted strangely and evasively, but to my knowledge, neither has acted cruelly or vindictively.
I know personally that I have a tendency to fall down a rabbit hole when I start leaning on the what-if's, so I have to reel myself in a lot

 

[Mickshawn]

Statements re: when Baby Last Seen (note the dates!)

02-02-16

Klein:
NR: Sorry if this has been asked. When was the last time someone OTHER than Reinwand, Walton, Mitchell and Kunz saw DeOrr?

RJ: Yeah, and not vague "well, there might have been a child in store" sightings... When was the last time someone definitely saw him in Idaho Falls? The extended family have never said when they last saw him. And did he seem healthy and happy the last time he was seen?

Klein: There are none.

AND

SB
01-28-16

04:09
TG: Prior the camping trip, when was Deorr last seen by someone other than his parents? Do you know?

04:15
SB: You know I know Bonneville County detectives have followed up on that particular aspect of the investigation, but to the best of my knowledge, from the time that they left Idaho Falls on July 9th which was in the early afternoon or early evening, uh, you know we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

That just blows my mind...Klein's words "There are none".
What? NONE? Grandmas and Grandpas? Family and Friends? NONE??? Huh???

 

[Rayemonde]

<snip>Then, I see all these smiling and genuinely happy pictures. I honestly have never been around a child that was abused (that I know of). Is it pretty common for a child that's been abused to have so many moments of happiness? Or are the photos smoking mirrors? <snip>

I don't know how common it is, but FWIW...



http://m.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/jan/07/missing-toddler-still-top-priority-searcy-police

Malik Drummond, reported missing by his father and stepmother. They said he wandered away from the home. His father confessed a year later to beating him to death. The stepmother admits you can see the bruises from a prior beating in the picture on his missing poster.

 

[Rayemonde]

<snip> for some reason the very first photo I saw floating around FB that was put out by DK's twin sister didn't look right to me. He was standing by a lake hold a ball, pretty dirty, and leaning quite a bit and he just looks off to me.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

This one? I agree that it looks off, but maybe he had an illness or innocent injury at the time, I don't know... He seems to have a bad rash (?) around his mouth but lots of well-cared for kids get bad eczema, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything either... There are a few pics where he has faint, faded bruises on his head or face, but that's pretty common with toddlers so again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

ETA here's one pic where I think he has a faded bruise on his forehead...


http://www.pollyklaas.org/missing/kids/images/kunzdeorrlg-1.jpg

 

[courtneyb]

A child can be killed the very first time they are physically abused. It may be a minor distinction for some, but it would mean the difference between an unintentional killing and intentional murder. And I agree that there has to be some reason they would lie and cover up his death. I cannot believe that anyone would go to these lengths if it were a true accident.


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[courtneyb]

View attachment 89591
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

This one? I agree that it looks off, but maybe he had an illness or innocent injury at the time, I don't know... He seems to have a bad rash (?) around his mouth but lots of well-cared for kids get bad eczema, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything either... There are a few pics where he has faint, faded bruises on his head or face, but that's pretty common with toddlers so again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

His left knee/foot looks... off, deformed.. Something. It's so hard to tell from pictures, especially when you are looking to see something. He could just be standing on a rock. He wasn't born with a club foot, was he? We'd have heard that, right?


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[TxJan1971]

I totally get that others may be more readily willing or convinced than I am to believe child abuse is the most plausible scenario and/or what occurred.

However, here’s something to think about.

If you were impaneled on a jury today and tasked by the judge with determining by EOB today whether or not two parents are guilty of child abuse, based solely on what sometimes nonspecific statements we have received from the beginning of the case until now, as stated by SB, Penner, Nate, any/all MSM reporters, any/all family members, IR, Nancy Grace, etc., and furthermore,

• You have no hard copy documentation/CPS file/photos specifically related to or demonstrating child abuse for this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no existing ER records to view on this child or any other child ever under their care that even remotely intimated abuse

• You have no existing medical records of suspicious broken bones, bruises, nutrition/weight issues, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no statements from anyone who can say they witnessed or even suspected out of control discipline or beatings, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of SMI (serious mental illness) on any of the parties

• You have no viewable documentation of any hx of chemical dependency by any of the parties

• Etc. etc. etc. too many more to list

Question 1: Would you vote the parents guilty of child abuse? Guilty or not guilty based on only what we have thus far from the above stated individuals and/their respective statements?

Question 2: Reverse the situation - If you and your husband/bf/significant other were being accused of child abuse and your jury had only the same statements as above and had none of the above tangible pieces of evidence bulleted, would you expect the jury to convict you and/or your DH/significant other of child abuse?

That’s the only point I want to make. Right now, there is not history of child abuse for me to even think about accusing the parents. Show me something. Anything. I’m willing to be convinced. Just because I think something doesn’t make it reality, at least for me. Hope that clears up my position. I can get there. I just need more and can’t in good conscience convict someone with anything less. I would expect the same from them if the situation were reversed. That’s all…

Hugs to all my fellow sleuthers who mainly want justice for baby Deorr
:loveyou:

 

[courtneyb]

That just blows my mind...Klein's words "There are none".
What? NONE? Grandmas and Grandpas? Family and Friends? NONE??? Huh???

There are a TON of people who have seen my 1 year old in the last week.


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[K.L.Puyallup]

His left knee/foot looks... off, deformed.. Something. It's so hard to tell from pictures, especially when you are looking to see something. He could just be standing on a rock. He wasn't born with a club foot, was he? We'd have heard that, right?


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Do we know how old he was in this picture? He looks like a new walker to me. the fact that he's leaned forward and sort of has his arms puffed outwards looks like a new toddler trying to get his bearings. A weird footing, for sure. But I have pictures of my kiddo in similar stances at ~15 months.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

That just blows my mind...Klein's words "There are none".
What? NONE? Grandmas and Grandpas? Family and Friends? NONE??? Huh???

I think Klein must have been answering that question in regards the campground. As there weren't anyone else present than the four excluded in the question, the answer is technically correct.

Or he just misunderstood the question.....

 

[Beezneez]

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/02/heart-breaking-infant-death-in-salmon/

Not directly related- just another example that SB is quite competent & thorough in his investigatons. Also, how incredibly sad. Meth is a PROBLEM. A huge problem. Casual use is ruining lives & our women's prison in Pocatello is full of women who got a little further into meth than they meant to.

 

[Lilibet]

Do we know how old he was in this picture? He looks like a new walker to me. the fact that he's leaned forward and sort of has his arms puffed outwards looks like a new toddler trying to get his bearings. A weird footing, for sure. But I have pictures of my kiddo in similar stances at ~15 months.

I remember that someone said he looks like he's about to fill his diaper.

 

[TxJan1971]

I think Klein must have been answering that question in regards the campground. As there weren't anyone else present than the four excluded in the question, the answer is technically correct.

Or he just misunderstood the question.....

But then you have Bowerman who seems to confirm Klein's statement there are none (no sightings) ?

04:15
SB: You know I know Bonneville County detectives have followed up on that particular aspect of the investigation, but to the best of my knowledge, from the time that they left Idaho Falls on July 9th which was in the early afternoon or early evening, uh, you know we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

Is it possible they both have gotten it wrong or misunderstood the same question?

I'm going with no sightings by anyone (that they're telling us about).

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

I read previously that JM lost custody of her older two children due to meth use. Is there any validity to that? Does anyone know if DeOrr, Sr. has a history of drug abuse?

 

[TxJan1971]

I read previously that JM lost custody of her older two children due to meth use. Is there any validity to that? Does anyone know if DeOrr, Sr. has a history of drug abuse?

All valid questions. I have yet to see anything about that -- anywhere. If that information truly does exist, we have not yet seen it via appropriate MSM links (to my knowledge).

 

[pepelepolecat]

rsbm

ETA I was just wondering if spanking/ hitting/ whipping young children is legal, common or socially acceptable in Idaho (does anyone know?) and I found that it's still legal to hit children in schools there.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/spanking-school-19-states-corporal-punishment-legal/story?id=15932135



:what:

Quite frankly, it's pretty common throughout the United States and fairly socially acceptable, too. There's an idea running through all classes of American society that a child must be spanked or he/she will be spoiled. The AAP, fwiw, advises against corporal punishment.

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1564&context=lcp


disclaimer: This is based on my own observations, and as a nonspanking parent, I've heard some pretty dire, and really, hurtful, predictions re: my kids, kids who are well-behaved, kind, considerate and honor students.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

But then you have Bowerman who seems to confirm Klein's statement there are none (no sightings) ?

04:15
SB: You know I know Bonneville County detectives have followed up on that particular aspect of the investigation, but to the best of my knowledge, from the time that they left Idaho Falls on July 9th which was in the early afternoon or early evening, uh, you know we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

Is it possible they both have gotten it wrong or misunderstood the same question?

I'm going with no sightings by anyone (that they're telling us about).

But surely LE and/or Klein would just work back until a none family member states they saw him e.g. a neighbour saw him being put in the car just before they left home for camp?

Given the lack of independent sightings in Leadore/Timber Creek, it would be SOP to work backward until you get one right? I have no idea why LE have been vague and/or unable to give this information.

 

[Rayemonde]

I totally get that others may be more readily willing or convinced than I am to believe child abuse is the most plausible scenario and/or what occurred.

However, here&#8217;s something to think about.

If you were impaneled on a jury today and tasked by the judge with determining by EOB today whether or not two parents are guilty of child abuse, based solely on what sometimes nonspecific statements we have received from the beginning of the case until now, as stated by SB, Penner, Nate, any/all MSM reporters, any/all family members, IR, Nancy Grace, etc., and furthermore,

&#8226; You have no hard copy documentation/CPS file/photos specifically related to or demonstrating child abuse for this child or any other child ever under their care

&#8226; You have no existing ER records to view on this child or any other child ever under their care that even remotely intimated abuse

&#8226; You have no existing medical records of suspicious broken bones, bruises, nutrition/weight issues, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

&#8226; You have no statements from anyone who can say they witnessed or even suspected out of control discipline or beatings, etc. on this child or any other child ever under their care

&#8226; You have no viewable documentation of any hx of SMI (serious mental illness) on any of the parties

&#8226; You have no viewable documentation of any hx of chemical dependency by any of the parties

&#8226; Etc. etc. etc. too many more to list

Question 1: Would you vote the parents guilty of child abuse? Guilty or not guilty based on only what we have thus far from the above stated individuals and/their respective statements?

Question 2: Reverse the situation - If you and your husband/bf/significant other were being accused of child abuse and your jury had only the same statements as above and had none of the above tangible pieces of evidence bulleted, would you expect the jury to convict you and/or your DH/significant other of child abuse?

That&#8217;s the only point I want to make. Right now, there is not history of child abuse for me to even think about accusing the parents. Show me something. Anything. I&#8217;m willing to be convinced. Just because I think something doesn&#8217;t make it reality, at least for me. Hope that clears up my position. I can get there. I just need more and can&#8217;t in good conscience convict someone with anything less. I would expect the same from them if the situation were reversed. That&#8217;s all&#8230;

Hugs to all my fellow sleuthers who mainly want justice for baby Deorr
:loveyou:

But in this case, the child has disappeared mysteriously, and it is presumed that he is dead and his parents have covered it up. That makes a *huge* difference.

 

[pepelepolecat]

The ones where he is on a beach, holding a stick. I'm not sure exactly when they were taken, but he is within the same age bracket. There are no physical signs of abuse in those pictures. That's not to say that things hadn't changed recently, but is there anything to suggest that they had?
If we are assuming that the parents had something to do with his disappearance because of their inability to be forthcoming and consistent, I think that's reasonable. But the abuse thing... I just don't see it. Unless there is actual evidence or family/friend/acquaintance testimony that abuse may have been taking place, I don't see any reason to suspect it.

Not all abuse is going to leave obvious marks, and some parents are really good at hiding the bruises where they won't be seen by others (thinking diaper area, specifically, but anything that would be regularly hidden under clothes would work).

I'm not sure if I believe DeOrr was regularly abused or not, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility. I hope not, though.

 

[TxJan1971]

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/02/heart-breaking-infant-death-in-salmon/

Not directly related- just another example that SB is quite competent & thorough in his investigatons. Also, how incredibly sad. Meth is a PROBLEM. A huge problem. Casual use is ruining lives & our women's prison in Pocatello is full of women who got a little further into meth than they meant to.

How sad! What a beautiful baby girl whose life was recklessly cut short and who died at the hands of the one who was supposed to protect and love her. It's so sad that her mom (and many others) give in to the temptation of drugs. So very, very sad. Thank you for sharing...