ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[courtneyb]

I believe, just my gut instinct, that there is going to be significance to the seemingly cautious answer SB gave when asked about the last time before the trip that DeOrr was seen alive. I think DeOrr was at the campground, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not he was there alive. Everything, including the store trip and purchases and conversation there, have a forced, staged feel to it. I'd like to know the last time anyone saw him alive and IN WHAT CONDITION? The odd way that VDK lays it on thick when talking about how much he loves little DeOrr, while sounding totally insincere, makes me think that there possibly was some outward signs of physical abuse that they were hiding.

I'm forgetting the bit about the pictures.. Were there no pictures of him on FB until after he went missing? Or were there pictures that were deleted?

Just wondering if there were signs of abuse that were subtle, but that she knew would be detected when LE and,ahem, people like us, start scrutinizing them. Or conversely, if that was the reason why there weren't any pictures posted of him.

 

[TxJan1971]

I believe, just my gut instinct, that there is going to be significance to the seemingly cautious answer SB gave when asked about the last time before the trip that DeOrr was seen alive. I think DeOrr was at the campground, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not he was there alive. Everything, including the store trip and purchases and conversation there, have a forced, staged feel to it. I'd like to know the last time anyone saw him alive and IN WHAT CONDITION? The odd way that VDK lays it on thick when talking about how much he loves little DeOrr, while sounding totally insincere, makes me think that there possibly was some outward signs of physical abuse that they were hiding.

I'm forgetting the bit about the pictures.. Were there no pictures of him on FB until after he went missing? Or were there pictures that were deleted?

Just wondering if there were signs of abuse that were subtle, but that she knew would be detected when LE and,ahem, people like us, start scrutinizing them. Or conversely, if that was the reason why there weren't any pictures posted of him.

Statements re: when Baby Last Seen (note the dates!)

02-02-16

Klein:
NR: Sorry if this has been asked. When was the last time someone OTHER than Reinwand, Walton, Mitchell and Kunz saw DeOrr?

RJ: Yeah, and not vague "well, there might have been a child in store" sightings... When was the last time someone definitely saw him in Idaho Falls? The extended family have never said when they last saw him. And did he seem healthy and happy the last time he was seen?

Klein: There are none.

AND

SB
01-28-16

04:09
TG: Prior the camping trip, when was Deorr last seen by someone other than his parents? Do you know?

04:15
SB: You know I know Bonneville County detectives have followed up on that particular aspect of the investigation, but to the best of my knowledge, from the time that they left Idaho Falls on July 9th which was in the early afternoon or early evening, uh, you know we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

 

[TxJan1971]

I believe, just my gut instinct, that there is going to be significance to the seemingly cautious answer SB gave when asked about the last time before the trip that DeOrr was seen alive. I think DeOrr was at the campground, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not he was there alive. Everything, including the store trip and purchases and conversation there, have a forced, staged feel to it. I'd like to know the last time anyone saw him alive and IN WHAT CONDITION? The odd way that VDK lays it on thick when talking about how much he loves little DeOrr, while sounding totally insincere, makes me think that there possibly was some outward signs of physical abuse that they were hiding.

I'm forgetting the bit about the pictures.. Were there no pictures of him on FB until after he went missing? Or were there pictures that were deleted?

Just wondering if there were signs of abuse that were subtle, but that she knew would be detected when LE and,ahem, people like us, start scrutinizing them. Or conversely, if that was the reason why there weren't any pictures posted of him.

BBM
Sharing only...

As far as an abuse theory, I can say that I'm not there yet. I'm still at the: The parents know what happened and they know where he is statement. I will admit, however, that the abuse theory has entered my mind and occasionally recurs fleetingly. I'm just not able to take the leap just yet as I haven't really seen anything concrete to suggest this. Maybe if I took the time to sleuth out SM, FB or private groups I may have found something hinky. I may have missed something subtle or even blatant, but minus that, I have to remain on my fence.

I'm sure I could very easily be swayed otherwise if something of more substance comes up though. I've certainly read my share of horror stories of parental abuse and know that it is not outside the realm of possibilities here.

 

[Dee10]

BBM

Jumping off your post,

It appears that Klein had a meeting with "both families" the day before the radio interview which was held on 1-28-16. During the radio interview, Klein stated a "couple more items were taken into custody yesterday," which would be on 1-27-16.

I'm not sure who exactly represented the "families" at that meeting - but that would be the same day they got a couple more items. Maybe a different team went somewhere else to get the items or maybe they got items from someone who attended one of the "families" meeting(s) ???? Just a thought...

07:35
Klein:
Well, yesterday, uh, we informed both sides of the family uh that we are now moving into Stage 3 of this investigation.

AND

02:31
Klein:
... that was a discussion that we had with both families yesterday morning in both of our meetings.

As far as your last paragraph as to what would be a reason they would be willing to be named suspects and unwilling to tell the truth, I have what I think might be a plausible theory, but since it is 100% pure unadulterated speculation at best, I'm going to say, "I don't know why they would be willing to be named suspects and unwilling to tell the truth!"

Does anyone know what "we are now moving into Stage 3 of this investigation" means?

 

[kammiemc]

Does anyone know what "we are now moving into Stage 3 of this investigation" means?

Klein was calling that the Prosecutorial phase. Not sure exactly what that means for a PI's role.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TxJan1971]

Does anyone know what "we are now moving into Stage 3 of this investigation" means?

Klein:
Well, yesterday, uh, we informed both sides of the family uh that we are now moving into Stage 3 of this investigation. So Stage 1 is, you know, are we going to take the case, what’s it about, taking the case. Stage 2 is coming up with a theory and disproving the theory and that’s what we announced and I’m sure your Radio Station also announced it when we put the Press Release out that said we are investigating this case now as a death case. Okay? So that’s where we are. We’re investigating it as a death case. Do we believe this was an accidental death? I know this is the first question everybody wants to ask us. Do we believe this is an accidental death or do we believe this is a homicide? We are currently in that Stage which is Stage 3, it is deciphering which type of “incident” – okay, I didn’t say “crime,” I said “incident.” What type of “incident” that is, and so, I know the conjecture folks out there are going to go, “Oh, my goodness, you know, he’s playing semantics with words. I’m really not! What we’re doing is, we don’t want to point the finger at anyone. We don’t want to say anything that would say, you know, you’re guilty or you’re not guilty. We don’t want to do that because we’re still developing some evidence.
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/2016/...-him/79029498/

 

[Rayemonde]

BBM
Sharing only...

As far as an abuse theory, I can say that I'm not there yet. I'm still at the: The parents know what happened and they know where he is statement. I will admit, however, that the abuse theory has entered my mind and occasionally recurs fleetingly. I'm just not able to take the leap just yet as I haven't really seen anything concrete to suggest this. Maybe if I took the time to sleuth out SM, FB or private groups I may have found something hinky. I may have missed something subtle or even blatant, but minus that, I have to remain on my fence.

I'm sure I could very easily be swayed otherwise if something of more substance comes up though. I've certainly read my share of horror stories of parental abuse and know that it is not outside the realm of possibilities here.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to indicate abuse apart from the Sheriff's evasive statement on the matter and the fact that it is the most common cause of death of a child at the hands of their parents, and imo it fits well with what we know about the case (why cover up an accident?). I haven't seen anything said on SM or anywhere else to indicate abuse. So it's just speculation/ a theory, but in moo it's the most likely explanation for what happened to DeOrr.

ETA I was just wondering if spanking/ hitting/ whipping young children is legal, common or socially acceptable in Idaho (does anyone know?) and I found that it's still legal to hit children in schools there.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/spanking-school-19-states-corporal-punishment-legal/story?id=15932135

Tenika Jones says the principal at the Joyce Bullock Elementary School in Levy County paddled her 5-year-old so severely last April [2011] that he cried for hours, triggering an asthma attack, which in turn required a trip to the emergency room.

The boy was spanked for roughhousing with another student on a school bus. Jones said her son had welts on his buttocks, missed a week of school and still has nightmares about the incident.

:what:

 

[persimmon]

BBM
Sharing only...

As far as an abuse theory, I can say that I'm not there yet. I'm still at the: The parents know what happened and they know where he is statement. I will admit, however, that the abuse theory has entered my mind and occasionally recurs fleetingly. I'm just not able to take the leap just yet as I haven't really seen anything concrete to suggest this. Maybe if I took the time to sleuth out SM, FB or private groups I may have found something hinky. I may have missed something subtle or even blatant, but minus that, I have to remain on my fence.

I'm sure I could very easily be swayed otherwise if something of more substance comes up though. I've certainly read my share of horror stories of parental abuse and know that it is not outside the realm of possibilities here.

For me, it's one of few options that fits the evidence, statements, and JM's moodiness. I'm slightly on the fence in terms of independent event or longterm issue, but I am very heavily leaning almost completely toward this conclusion. Abusers can be very clever at creating facades imo. This also lines up with the abnormal SM preoccupation and obsession with public (and other) perception. Not trying to sway you just chiming in. I do agree that there are few physical or concrete pieces of direct evidence to support the theory, but if they didn't abuse him somehow causing him to "disappear" then what did they do? In effect, anything they did was abusive. Regardless if it was physical or otherwise. Jmo

 

[courtneyb]

BBM
Sharing only...

As far as an abuse theory, I can say that I'm not there yet. I'm still at the: The parents know what happened and they know where he is statement. I will admit, however, that the abuse theory has entered my mind and occasionally recurs fleetingly. I'm just not able to take the leap just yet as I haven't really seen anything concrete to suggest this. Maybe if I took the time to sleuth out SM, FB or private groups I may have found something hinky. I may have missed something subtle or even blatant, but minus that, I have to remain on my fence.

I'm sure I could very easily be swayed otherwise if something of more substance comes up though. I've certainly read my share of horror stories of parental abuse and know that it is not outside the realm of possibilities here.

I only began considering abuse as a possible component here recently, and with much remorse. A lot of the signs are there, but that doesn't mean it was happening necessarily. But, what really made me consider that abuse may have played a role, is something that isn't admissible in any court... It just comes down to...THEY DON'T ACT RIGHT. Dumb, maybe, but I cannot reconcile how they have acted and continue to act, even with taking into consideration the scrutiny they are under, with anything that falls under the umbrella of how I think they should act, as innocent parents of a beloved missing child. I know that everyone handles grief differently, I know, I know, I know all that. I'm just saying, FOR ME, when I've seen or heard them, they make me feel gross. Not concrete at all.

Do we know how the camping trip came to be? Has anyone there said, "Oh, yeah, we were planning it for several days." Any family to back that up, if so? Not that I think their families would give them up if they knew anything. I get the feeling they protect their own. Even at the expense of another of their own.

 

[persimmon]

Klein was calling that the Prosecutorial phase. Not sure exactly what that means for a PI's role.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We know he handed everything pertinent over to LE and he has kept a lid on any statements, so maybe this is it until charges are filed? I would imagine he would serve as a witness if this proceeds with charges being filed. Idk

 

[courtneyb]

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to indicate abuse apart from the Sheriff's evasive statement on the matter and the fact that it is the most common cause of death of a child at the hands of their parents, and imo it fits well with what we know about the case (why cover up an accident?). I haven't seen anything said on SM or anywhere else to indicate abuse. So it's just speculation/ a theory, but in moo it's the most likely explanation for what happened to DeOrr.

ETA I was just wondering if spanking/ hitting/ whipping young children is legal, common or socially acceptable in Idaho (does anyone know?) and I found that it's still legal to hit children in schools there.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/spanking-school-19-states-corporal-punishment-legal/story?id=15932135



:what:

I am leaning towards abuse during the act of disciplining. You know, people have widely varying views on what constitutes discipline and when it crosses over into abuse.

And DeOrr was about the right age to begin venturing into potty training territory. How many horrific cases of abuse/murder have we heard about that originated with the child having an episode of bladder or bowel incontinence. If I am going with abuse as a possibility, I have to go with it occurring while they were disciplining him. And I have to go with it having to do with him having an accident, because I cannot fathom anything a child that age could do other than that to arouse any kind of anger in an adult. I have 4 kids, ages 15 down to 1... and I know how they can make you want to pull your hair out. But actually being ANGRY with any of them, especially at that age? No way.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Is there any evidence at all that DeOrr suffered any sort of abuse? Looking through photos on fb, there are pictures of DeOrr that were taken shortly before the camping trip, where he is shirtless. The pictures are from different angles, and there are no visible bruises, cuts, or scrapes.
Has anyone close to the couple suggested that abuse may have been a part of the picture? Are there any witnesses to either abusive behavior, or marks of abuse? Is there anything to back up this theory, other than intentionally vague statements by the sheriff that are open to a wide range of interpretations?

I agree that this couple has not been completely honest during this investigation, but I'm finding it hard to find anything at all to suggest that DeOrr had been mistreated before his disappearance.

 

[persimmon]

I only began considering abuse as a possible component here recently, and with much remorse. A lot of the signs are there, but that doesn't mean it was happening necessarily. But, what really made me consider that abuse may have played a role, is something that isn't admissible in any court... It just comes down to...THEY DON'T ACT RIGHT. Dumb, maybe, but I cannot reconcile how they have acted and continue to act, even with taking into consideration the scrutiny they are under, with anything that falls under the umbrella of how I think they should act, as innocent parents of a beloved missing child. I know that everyone handles grief differently, I know, I know, I know all that. I'm just saying, FOR ME, when I've seen or heard them, they make me feel gross. Not concrete at all.

Do we know how the camping trip came to be? Has anyone there said, "Oh, yeah, we were planning it for several days." Any family to back that up, if so? Not that I think their families would give them up if they knew anything. I get the feeling they protect their own. Even at the expense of another of their own.

During an impromptu q&a on a FB page dedicated to searching for DeOrr JM's mother stated that it had been planned for a week.

 

[Rayemonde]

Is there any evidence at all that DeOrr suffered any sort of abuse? Looking through photos on fb, there are pictures of DeOrr that were taken shortly before the camping trip, where he is shirtless. The pictures are from different angles, and there are no visible bruises, cuts, or scrapes.
Has anyone close to the couple suggested that abuse may have been a part of the picture? Are there any witnesses to either abusive behavior, or marks of abuse? Is there anything to back up this theory, other than intentionally vague statements by the sheriff that are open to a wide range of interpretations?

I agree that this couple has not been completely honest during this investigation, but I'm finding it hard to find anything at all to suggest that DeOrr had been mistreated before his disappearance.

Which shirtless photos were taken shortly before his disappearance?

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

Which shirtless photos were taken shortly before his disappearance?

The ones where he is on a beach, holding a stick. I'm not sure exactly when they were taken, but he is within the same age bracket. There are no physical signs of abuse in those pictures. That's not to say that things hadn't changed recently, but is there anything to suggest that they had?
If we are assuming that the parents had something to do with his disappearance because of their inability to be forthcoming and consistent, I think that's reasonable. But the abuse thing... I just don't see it. Unless there is actual evidence or family/friend/acquaintance testimony that abuse may have been taking place, I don't see any reason to suspect it.

 

[Rayemonde]

I am leaning towards abuse during the act of disciplining. You know, people have widely varying views on what constitutes discipline and when it crosses over into abuse.

Yes, thank you for making that distinction. I have read other cases where a parent seems to think they are disciplining a child, but it is actually abuse... Not abuse for sadistic reasons, but more like lashing out out of anger when disciplining a child and going way too far. That's the kind of abuse I was thinking of here.

 

[courtneyb]

I'm not willing to go to bat, saying that I believe that DeOrr was abused. But, I think it's possible.

I had a friend in Junior High. She was a good kid, and didn't get in much trouble. But, when she did (grades, attitude, etc.), she would be "disciplined" by her parents, usually both of them. And they would beat the hell out of her. Belt marks, bruises, slap marks on her face, scratches on her arm if she tried to pull away. It didn't happen often, maybe twice a year, but I often thought that one time might be the time they kill her. The rest of the time.... totally normal acting people. No verbal abuse, Mom stayed home and was active in the kids' activities and at the school, Dad had a good job and would be at every football game to watch her cheer. If you didn't see her for a week after one of their "punishments" you'd swear on your life that you had no idea any of that was going on.

So, I'm just saying it's possible.

 

[Lillahazel]

I agree. I will also emphasize that I have no concrete proof other than instinct. I will even go one step further and say that in the first interview JM seemed to put out a "wife beating" vibe to me (physical and/or emotional). It seemed like she wasn't really aloud to speak and when she did speak she was quickly tuned out. She hung her head immediately after, almost as though she knew she was in trouble. I guess they could have also purposely only had DK speak. Maybe they planned it that way so there was only one public speaker. It would make it easier to not have different stories to the public.

I also see a few photos that MAY show some abuse. There was one with a broken arm, one that in my opinion seemed to hide a broken arm, and for some reason the very first photo I saw floating around FB that was put out by DK's twin sister didn't look right to me. He was standing by a lake hold a ball, pretty dirty, and leaning quite a bit and he just looks off to me. Then, I see all these smiling and genuinely happy pictures. I honestly have never been around a child that was abused (that I know of). Is it pretty common for a child that's been abused to have so many moments of happiness? Or are the photos smoking mirrors? I also find it interesting that SB and Klein asked for people to come forward if they observed an interaction with the parents and DJ.

 

[Lillahazel]

***forgive me I'm still figuring out how to respond on here. This is suppose to be in response to Rayemonde a few posts back***

I'm not sure if it's legal or not in ID. I will say that based on my MOO (Forgive me for stereotyping everyone in Idaho) it's a little more "old school". Especially the more north you go. I feel like Boise is pretty modern but the more north you go I would say the more "socially accepted" it is. I really hope that doesn't offend anyone on here. This is just one opinion from someone on the very close ID border outside.

 

[Rayemonde]

The ones where he is on a beach, holding a stick. I'm not sure exactly when they were taken, but he is within the same age bracket. There are no physical signs of abuse in those pictures. That's not to say that things hadn't changed recently, but is there anything to suggest that they had?
If we are assuming that the parents had something to do with his disappearance because of their inability to be forthcoming and consistent, I think that's reasonable. But the abuse thing... I just don't see it. Unless there is actual evidence or family/friend/acquaintance testimony that abuse may have been taking place, I don't see any reason to suspect it.

Thanks. Yes, I'd forgotten about those pictures. I can't see any bruises on them either, although the resolution is pretty low and he's partly in the shade so I can't say for sure.

But from what Bowerman has said, I suspect that he has evidence of abuse (in the form of allegations by family or friends, at least). And personally, I think there is no way the parents would cover up an accident and still be keeping up the pretence now. The only scenarios that I think are likely in this situation are illegal drug use, physical abuse, or intentional murder. And I personally think that physical abuse is the most likely of these, considering what else we know. Not necessarily ongoing physical abuse, but I think that abuse prior to the camping trip is a possible explanation for why everyone has been so cagey about when he was last seen before the camping trip. But maybe the parents were particularly stressed / angry that day (maybe about the court appearance for the money JM owed? Maybe that had caused an argument?), and ended up taking it out on DeOrr.