ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #23

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

And I always wonder why they would call in LE and SAR where they might have buried him....Not sure they would. If they were hiding him it would make sense to go back to the campsite over and over knowing full well he wouldn't be found. JMO

According to the time line, they would have had hours' worth of time to transport the body somewhere else. The search was conducted within a three mile radius. It is entirely possible that he's way beyond that area. JM knows.

 

[ninij9]

This is what I truly love about the WebSleuths forum. Although we may not agree with each other, we can still come together and discuss a case and have very different opinions as to what might have happened, and still LEARN from each other. I know my mind has been opened to other ideas/possibilities simply by reading others' opinion. It leaves me scratching my head and saying, "Hmmm...I had never thought about it like that." So, I salute you for clearly articulating where you stand and why.

:tyou:

[emoji8] and in return, this is why I love Websleuths. Your response!! I really expected grief over my opinion here. This is a super passionate thread. I thank you profusely for hearing me out with an open mind. In the end, we all want the same don't we? Find DeOrr, put him to rest, and exact Justice if he has come to harm via negligence or worse. I feel closure coming with the spring.

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[ninij9]

I appreciate your desire to not "pile on" the parents or take part in a witch hunt in case they are innocent, in the absence of a statement from LE backing up what Klein says. It's the right thing to do, until you can't in good conscience do it any more. My point of no return is just different from yours. SB has said enough for me, naming them suspects and saying that they know where his body is, saying they have told multiple, inconsistent accounts of what happened, etc. to make me personally comfortable believing that if they know where his body is, then they know what happened to change DeOrr from a little boy into a body to be found. SB stating that they are not telling the truth about what event it was that led to them knowing where his body is makes me comfortable making the tiny leap that there has to be some responsibility for what happened to DeOrr that is the reason they aren't telling the truth.

Also, what LE ISN'T saying also factors in for me. What they aren't saying is:

"We are NOT working in conjunction with KIC."

"Klein does NOT speak for LE or FBI."

SB actually did respond to questions raised by Klein's statement. But he didn't say or imply that anything that Klein said was false or untrue.

The FBI is involved also. I think that if SB or especially the FBI wanted Klein to shut up, they'd have shut him up long ago.

I think they are letting Klein say the things they cannot, hoping to get a certain result.

I do think, however, that Klein may be taking an inch and a half in what he says when LE has given him an inch. But he hasn't gone too far, not so far that LE is going to slap his hands and say, "We don't know what this crackpot is talking about!"



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Hi Courtney!
It does give me pause that LE hasn't denied Klein's statements as well. It could be telling. I don't deny that the parents may be complicit in baby DeOrrs death. I guess I just don't care for Klein, his methods, his vague speaking style. So because of this I am going to wait to see what LE finally goes on the record with...Or how DeOrr is eventually found. But I can totally see where you all are coming from. I just wanted to post my misgivings about Klein. He's a character at best.

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[haven71]

Hmmmm....I dunno. He mentioned the cadaver dogs hitting on cerebral fluid or maybe even blood. I'm leaning away from an accidental drug overdose for that reason.

I'm leaning toward it not being an "innocent" accident. By that, I mean a total accident which happened by virtue of parental negligence. I believe if this were the case, DK and/or JM would've come forward long before now. Common sense dictates that LE and a court of law would be more forgiving than if it were, say, outright murder.

Not coming forward due to it being an accident shows that it was more than an accident, IMO. Physical punishment gone way too far for instance. And as I've said all along, if they are covering up a true accident (such as a hot car death, drowning, etc) there has to be a dang good reason for that. The most plausible reasons I can come up with are autopsy results showing prior injuries that the parents want to keep hidden (chronic child abuse), or, as some have speculated, an accidenct in concordance with some illegal component, i.e. he was given illegal drugs to keep him asleep during the night and he overdosed, or the parents were involved in something highly illegal when the death occurred.

That's why, IMO, an accident by sheer negligence alone is looking less and less likely.

JMO.

 

[TeaTime]

Me too. Those hatred and disdain filled looks she was giving Vernal in the interviews make it hard to believe she is scared of him.


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She definitely looks like she is disgusted and angry with him and it has nothing to do with the decision to give an interview.

 

[sonjay]

I don't consider a truck or a car seat to be "equipment," but maybe Klein does. I would refer to them as "articles." "Equipment," to me, means things that are used to achieve something like tools or sports gear.

My take on that term is that Klein deliberately chose a vague word so as not to give any clues at all as to what the things were that the dogs alerted on. I think he doesn't particularly care if the 3 things would actually fall under our usual understanding of the word "equipment." I think the 3 things could be anything: clothing, camping gear, a vehicle, car seat, a log by the campfire, the picnic table......

IOW, I don't think his use of the word "equipment" necessarily restricts the 3 things to things that we would normally consider to be equipment.

 

[haven71]

According to the time line, they would have had hours' worth of time to transport the body somewhere else. The search was conducted within a three mile radius. It is entirely possible that he's way beyond that area. JM knows.

I agree. Plenty of time to have moved the body quite far from the campground.

I think it's a no-brainer that they hid the body WELL before calling 911. Because I doubt they knew how long it would take search and rescue...for all they knew local LE was nearby and could arrive from Leadore in under an hour. Why put that pressure on themselves, when you could hide the body farther at their "leisure" and then call 911.

 

[DexterMorgan]

The only reason that I'm not happy with Klein is because there are millions of kids missing that can use his help.

But he wants to take years from his schedule to bash people on this media case even though he discovered and already passed on his discovered information to the fbi and sheriffs.

So what more does he want. And don't give me that justice crap. If he truly investigate missing kid cases. Then maybe he should be honorable like Tim Miller (Texas equasearch) and move on. Jmo

Remember when Tim Miller decided to no longer move on the Mcstay case due to xyz. Did Tim Miller do a national campaign about it. No. He simply just kept it moving to the next case.

So Klein may be right on some things. But Klein is also seeming like the attention seeking bounty hunter that first helped out Casey Anthony. Jmo

Klein just wants to have a permanent chair on the Nancy Grace Bombshell show. Jmo

 

[haven71]

She definitely looks like she is disgusted and angry with him and it has nothing to do with the decision to give an interview.

And they sure aren't sitting close together holding hands or anything that shows they're trying to get through this together. There definitely seems to be angry vibes come off of JM and directed toward VDK.

 

[cobalt sky]

Thanks for posting SB response.
Ok I'm going to be really unpopular here on this thread. I have read along from day one. I cannot believe that so many sleuthers are taking everything Klein says as Bible. He seems to me to be a giant BS artist. I cannot wait for "Phase 4" Phase 5, 6, 7...
LE is not backing up his statements at this time. I find it extremely frustrating how vague he is. Like one of those people that claim to talk to the dead. Says just enough to hook you, but also not enough to be caught out as smoke.
1. He hasn't found DeOrr. 2. He doesn't know if it was accidental or homicide. 2. He hasn't quoted JM, just accuses her. On many other threads WSers would be ripping him a new blow hole. If he is wrong, think of all of the devastation his accusations will have caused.
I respect everyone's opinion. I have been wrong before, but right now, until LE starts making some of these claims, I will have to give his parents some slack until this baby is found. Also, after all of this "Salem witch hunt" that Klein has fostered, he better hope this baby is found wrapped in something or buried. If it does turn out that he wandered off...
Ok, let the hating begin. I'm a big girl, got my big girl panties on too. Just let me say I do respect you all and have often agreed with you all in the past. [emoji5]

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For the most part I agree, you summed it all up quite well . I don't necessarily disagree with Klein's theories of what may have happened, I just don't like his approach. And I'll leave it at that.

 

[sonjay]

I appreciate your desire to not "pile on" the parents or take part in a witch hunt in case they are innocent, in the absence of a statement from LE backing up what Klein says. It's the right thing to do, until you can't in good conscience do it any more. My point of no return is just different from yours. SB has said enough for me, naming them suspects and saying that they know where his body is, saying they have told multiple, inconsistent accounts of what happened, etc. to make me personally comfortable believing that if they know where his body is, then they know what happened to change DeOrr from a little boy into a body to be found. SB stating that they are not telling the truth about what event it was that led to them knowing where his body is makes me comfortable making the tiny leap that there has to be some responsibility for what happened to DeOrr that is the reason they aren't telling the truth.

Also, what LE ISN'T saying also factors in for me. What they aren't saying is:

"We are NOT working in conjunction with KIC."

"Klein does NOT speak for LE or FBI."

SB actually did respond to questions raised by Klein's statement. But he didn't say or imply that anything that Klein said was false or untrue.

The FBI is involved also. I think that if SB or especially the FBI wanted Klein to shut up, they'd have shut him up long ago.

I think they are letting Klein say the things they cannot, hoping to get a certain result.

I do think, however, that Klein may be taking an inch and a half in what he says when LE has given him an inch. But he hasn't gone too far, not so far that LE is going to slap his hands and say, "We don't know what this crackpot is talking about!"

BBM. I agree. I can picture the conversation: LE tells Klein, "We can't order you to release or not release these bits of information..... but we sure wouldn't mind if you did." <wink wink>

 

[jessie]

Thanks for posting SB response.
Ok I'm going to be really unpopular here on this thread. I have read along from day one. I cannot believe that so many sleuthers are taking everything Klein says as Bible. He seems to me to be a giant BS artist. I cannot wait for "Phase 4" Phase 5, 6, 7...
LE is not backing up his statements at this time. I find it extremely frustrating how vague he is. Like one of those people that claim to talk to the dead. Says just enough to hook you, but also not enough to be caught out as smoke.
1. He hasn't found DeOrr. 2. He doesn't know if it was accidental or homicide. 2. He hasn't quoted JM, just accuses her. On many other threads WSers would be ripping him a new blow hole. If he is wrong, think of all of the devastation his accusations will have caused.
I respect everyone's opinion. I have been wrong before, but right now, until LE starts making some of these claims, I will have to give his parents some slack until this baby is found. Also, after all of this "Salem witch hunt" that Klein has fostered, he better hope this baby is found wrapped in something or buried. If it does turn out that he wandered off...
Ok, let the hating begin. I'm a big girl, got my big girl panties on too. Just let me say I do respect you all and have often agreed with you all in the past. [emoji5]

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I come on here to agree with your post - apart from the BBM. I gave these parents some slack for a while last year but things have altered since then.
I'm waiting to get a statement from SB on what evidence they have before I'm comfortable with everything Klein says. Not that I think Klein is lying, but isn't a lot of what he reports info he has obtained from LE, FBI somehow? He came late to this case so wasn't around when the 'dogs alerted', would the parents' cell phone providers provide information to Klein or did he learn this from LE/FBI? I heard SB say (paraphrasing here) We (LE) are trying to keep our investigations separate from Klein. I am not sure what is happening now, has it become a combined operation/investigation? Is every detail being shared and Klein has become the spokesperson?
In Great Britain (except Scotland) our system works in a different way, LE have the upper hand and very little is released publicly during investigations - especially the names of possible suspects, in fact I think that alone can make a future trial inadmissable.
So bear with me, our culture is different and also the way our LE operate so I might be offending posters in the US without intention, just my different view from where I come from.
Just add -- I have enormous admiration for SB. A trustworthy, hardworking, man of integrity who is determined to get a result here.

(OK I've got my big girl's pants on too, but now I'll go back to :lurk: )

 

[courtneyb]

Hi Courtney!
It does give me pause that LE hasn't denied Klein's statements as well. It could be telling. I don't deny that the parents may be complicit in baby DeOrrs death. I guess I just don't care for Klein, his methods, his vague speaking style. So because of this I am going to wait to see what LE finally goes on the record with...Or how DeOrr is eventually found. But I can totally see where you all are coming from. I just wanted to post my misgivings about Klein. He's a character at best.

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Hey there! I agree. I find it harder to hear news that I need to confirm what I'm thinking when it is coming out of the mouth of someone I don't care for, for whatever reason. I get the feeling he revels in the attention a bit, which can be a turn off in such a grave set of circumstances. I personally don't think he's a big enough goof that he'd lie or make statements with no basis in fact. Simply because he DOES seem to enjoy the "authority" he has and has to know that if he messes this up, his reputation will take a big hit.

But, I've certainly been wrong before when assuming people are smart enough to not do really dumb things, lol!

 

[Beezneez]

I agree that there isn't enough evidence publicly available to convict the parents, and my word what a tragic set of circumstances if this little one did just wander off, but what is with the different versions of stories that the parents have told? Was he abducted by aliens and they all got the men in black memory eraser treatment? I just cannot come up with an explanation that allows for their complete innocence in his disappearance that also accounts for their inability to explain what happened to their son.
He was 2. Two year olds need to be kept an eye on all the time. If he were 15 and went on a hike, or 10 and riding a bike up and down the road coming in to camp and disappeared, it would be plausible that they wouldn't be able to provide an explanation. But that would be it. "He went on a hike, supposed to be back in 45 minutes. He isn't." or "He was riding his bike, he went just out of sight & when he didn't come back we walked over, he was gone."
There are situations where someone could lose a kid, but they don't tell different stories about it.
From both SB and Klein- the parents know what happened to their son. The parents are not telling the truth about what happened to their son. The boy was not abducted by a stranger, wild animal or men in black suits. The toddler didn't just wander off (no evidence found) and that the toddler did not accidentally meet his demise in an area that he could get to on his own (again, no evidence).
I understand that no evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I feel that there is some evidence strongly suggesting something else took place. (Maybe what Klein said, maybe something else?)
The parents have made up stories and fabricated his presence from 8 am until the 911 calls were made. I am not piling on speculation, these are facts that have been shared by SB, as well as Klein.
If there is something I am missing, I genuinely would like to know it. SB hasn't been silent about Kleins latest remarks, he has said they are conducting their own investigation, and that he has no problems with Kleins current investigation (Nate Eaton spoke with SB, it is in the QA EIN posted yesterday). If SB wanted Klein to shush he could have very tactfully addressed the situation- such as, "well those are interesting ideas" or "Our office does not have the same interpretation of the information provided by JM".
I have a great deal of respect for views different than mine, which is why I am sincerely asking for input on the points I have listed out above. If I am missing some bit of info that might change my perspective, please share.

 

[Rayemonde]

I agree. Plenty of time to have moved the body quite far from the campground.

I think it's a no-brainer that they hid the body WELL before calling 911. Because I doubt they knew how long it would take search and rescue...for all they knew local LE was nearby and could arrive from Leadore in under an hour. Why put that pressure on themselves, when you could hide the body farther at their "leisure" and then call 911.

Well, the timeline starts at 8am according to Klein... SB also said they couldn't get their story straight on what they had for breakfast... DeOrr was wearing pj's (supposedly). So I think it all started early in the morning. IR and ggp might have still been asleep. Something happened. DeOrr died.

It seemed very important to the parents to establish that DeOrr was alive and with them at the store. So I think he was already gone by then, and the store was intended to be an alibi. They went out to look for a good place to dispose of a body, then called at the store on their way back to the campsite. IR and ggp may have had some suspicions that something had happened. Ggp has memory problems, so they tell him the baby is missing and he was supposed to be watching the baby. They want to establish that DeOrr was still alive and well after they returned fom the store, so they confuse ggp into thinking he was there.

Then the 911 call, and hauling down the road... Maybe they realised they had left a piece of evidence in the truck, so Vernal quickly went to get rid of it. He had to make up a story to explain to ggp and IR why he was driving off when his son was missing.


Also, Klein is a sideshow imo. I don't want to get derailed by arguing about his merits and shortcomings or what I think of him as a person... This is about DeOrr.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

So what more does he want. And don't give me that justice crap. If he truly investigate missing kid cases. Then maybe he should be honorable like Tim Miller (Texas equasearch) and move on. Jmo

Remember when Tim Miller decided to no longer move on the Mcstay case due to xyz. Did Tim Miller do a national campaign about it. No. He simply just kept it moving to the next case.

Klein Investigations doesn't just work on one case at a time. They are investigating other cases as we speak.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

[FONT=&amp]I want to give a big shout out to KIFI Local News 8 for airing yesterday's 28 minute long interview with Mr. Klein. I think East Idaho News has been great at getting this story out quickly, but I think Nate really missed a HUGE opportunity when he was granted the first interview with Jessica and Vernal back in July. He was clearly no match for Vernal and his -isms. I've said it before and I'll say it, again - I get the impression that Vernal fancies himself to be some sort of smooth talker. He has likely had some mild success in his life by being a fast talker, white lie telling kind of fellow. People in the past have probably just given in to him simply so that he will shut up.

Here are some notes I took while listening to Klein's interview - these are things that stood out to me. In bold are my notes and under that in italics are my comments, questions, etc. I would love to hear what you all think.

Klein mentions there were two purchases in Leadore.

Does this mean there were two separate visits to store? Which day(s)? The evening before the event, or the day of the event - or both? Were Vernal and Jessica trying to cover their tracks by making sure witnesses saw at least THEM, if not DeOrr with them?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Klein says that Vernal / Jessica made up an elaborate story that DeOrr was in the store with them and other patrons were playing with him. They said a gentleman pumping gas saw DeOrr. However, there was no child seen with them in the store or inside their vehicle that can be corroborated by witnesses. In fact, witnesses say there was absolutely no child seen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]What does this mean? Was the child dead before store trip?[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]I guess this would all depend on when those two purchases took place and on which days.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Klein said that this info had never been released before, but a cadaver dog hit on equipment.
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
He does not say it hit on/at a place, but on items. I am assuming that is what he meant otherwise you'd think they would dig/search the place the scent was picked up. Did Klein bring in this dog and were the items hit upon the "evidence" that was eventually sent to Quantico?[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Klein said that Isaac has realized he was being made a scapegoat.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

This is starting to sound more and more like premeditation. Perhaps the incident occurred BEFORE the trip even took place and maybe DeOrr's body was transported up to the campsite to be disposed of. I have come to this conclusion simply because I do not believe that the 6 hour time frame that is unaccounted for (8am-2:26pm) is enough time for Jessica and Vernal to come up with this plan. They "accidentally" kill their son and then come up with this elaborate cover up? I'm not buying it. I don't think they are SMART enough to do it in such little time unless it was all preplanned. If they actually did drive down to Leadore the day of the event (sometime between 8am and 2:26pm), that would be a 45 minute drive each way (that's how long Jessica's mother told reporters in an October interview that it takes to get from Leadore to the campsite). So, 1.5 hours + some time in the store to make an appearance and make sure someone (clerk, other customers) saw them....nope, I am not buying that this scheme was thought up on the fly at the campsite to cover up the "accidental" death of DeOrr. It's too clever and calculating, even for them. This was preplanned. Either they killed DeOrr BEFORE the camping trip (at home in Idaho Falls???) or they premeditated his murder and thought the camping trip would be the perfect place to do it, hide the body and make Isaac (the "slow" friend) be the fall guy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Isaac has released his attorney because Klein and LE have spoken with his attorney and have said they don&#8217;t think he is a suspect.

Thank goodness! I feel for poor Isaac.

Klein mentions "proffer" a few times when discussing Isaac.

Definition: "In the context of criminal law, a proffer agreement is a written agreement between federal prosecutors and individuals under criminal investigation which permit these individuals to give the government information about crimes with some assurances that they will be protected against prosecution. Witnesses, subjects or targets of a federal investigation are usually parties to such agreements."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Klein has been surprised by the cold heartedness of the parents &#8211; a very difficult thing for Klein to deal with.
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Here is another reason why I don't believe it was an accident. No remorse.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]
Klein and his team are extremely frustrated - they don't understand why Jessica / Vernal have chosen to mislead so many different people.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

Yet another reason why I don't believe this was an accident. I have said before, I think this is related to sexual abuse or maybe even a child *advertiser censored* ring. I am still trying to figure out the missing link that could really, truly tie it all together, but I haven't found it yet. The only thing I have to go on is my gut instinct and the sheer depravity of the crime and the lack of remorse (or cold heartedness) by the parents.

Klein says half of his team believes it's murder and the other half believes its an accident.

I have stated my belief and why and I am hopeful that, especially since Klein's team is divided, they will vet this out properly to all come to the same conclusion.

Lastly, my heart goes out to you, Little DeOrr. You will be found and never forgotten. God speed, little one. :candle:[/FONT]

 

[courtneyb]

I kind of think that part of the reason behind Klein's vague speaking style may be the reining in of him by LE, when he is a man who is accustomed to talking "big". It seems he is speaking in a way in which he does not ordinarily have to. Like he is unsure how to say what he can while still following the restraints LE has likely put on him

Or he could just be a weirdo.


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[ninij9]

I agree that there isn't enough evidence publicly available to convict the parents, and my word what a tragic set of circumstances if this little one did just wander off, but what is with the different versions of stories that the parents have told? Was he abducted by aliens and they all got the men in black memory eraser treatment? I just cannot come up with an explanation that allows for their complete innocence in his disappearance that also accounts for their inability to explain what happened to their son.
He was 2. Two year olds need to be kept an eye on all the time. If he were 15 and went on a hike, or 10 and riding a bike up and down the road coming in to camp and disappeared, it would be plausible that they wouldn't be able to provide an explanation. But that would be it. "He went on a hike, supposed to be back in 45 minutes. He isn't." or "He was riding his bike, he went just out of sight & when he didn't come back we walked over, he was gone."
There are situations where someone could lose a kid, but they don't tell different stories about it.
From both SB and Klein- the parents know what happened to their son. The parents are not telling the truth about what happened to their son. The boy was not abducted by a stranger, wild animal or men in black suits. The toddler didn't just wander off (no evidence found) and that the toddler did not accidentally meet his demise in an area that he could get to on his own (again, no evidence).
I understand that no evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I feel that there is some evidence strongly suggesting something else took place. (Maybe what Klein said, maybe something else?)
The parents have made up stories and fabricated his presence from 8 am until the 911 calls were made. I am not piling on speculation, these are facts that have been shared by SB, as well as Klein.
If there is something I am missing, I genuinely would like to know it. SB hasn't been silent about Kleins latest remarks, he has said they are conducting their own investigation, and that he has no problems with Kleins current investigation (Nate Eaton spoke with SB, it is in the QA EIN posted yesterday). If SB wanted Klein to shush he could have very tactfully addressed the situation- such as, "well those are interesting ideas" or "Our office does not have the same interpretation of the information provided by JM".
I have a great deal of respect for views different than mine, which is why I am sincerely asking for input on the points I have listed out above. If I am missing some bit of info that might change my perspective, please share.

Great post! In regards to the ever changing story? I have held a belief since early on the the parents were negligent due to substance use. To me this would explain inconsistency in story because their brains were/are impaired. It could also explain the polygraph results as they both probably do blame themselves and they are lying because they are afraid to get caught out for it. I've always said that the little lies in beginning as to the time they took for their walk were drug related and the white lies turned into a white out blizzard as they struggled on later occasions to make it fit.
All of this to me us consistent with an accidental death/cover-up, or the baby wandering off into the wilderness.
Personally I can see them coming back and finding DeOrr in the creek. Panic and paranoia commence due to being under the influence and bingo a nasty brew of deep doodoo that they can't climb out of ever since.
Just another viewpoint I guess.

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[SweetT]

Some states have "at will" employment wherein one can be fired for no reason. Idaho is one of them.

That would be some guaranteed unemployment for JM then IMO.