ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

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ITA. I think he has more street smarts than many are giving him credit for.

:cow:

I agree.

I've seen two seemingly different portrayals of Isaac. I had a really bad feeling about him from the first interview. I don't care what time of day it was or if he'd just woke up, he clearly IMO was higher than a kite.

Yes, he did seem childlike and even likable during the second interview.

But I'll never be completely at ease, even if he "only" has direct knowledge of the events as opposed to participation in. <modsnip> doesn't mean he isn't capable of partying or anything else adults are wont to do.

BTW, I do not think Isaac is involved directly. I'm just pointing out that he's just as capable of making poor decisions as any other adult.
 
If they were not familiar with the area and were looking for a place to bury DeOrr ( :( ), I'd think they would not want to go too far off the road they came in on, for fear of getting lost... I also think they would look for an area with lots of trees (less conspicuous), most likely near a creek/stream (and the ground is softer there as well). From looking at the maps and satellite imagery, I doubt that they went more than 3 miles from the campsite. There aren't that many roads and if you head towards Leadore, it turns into open sagebrush/desert very quickly. It's creepy thinking about trying to figure out where to bury a body... hopefully LE/FBI have some areas in mind.

ETA: The above post refers to the scenario of them burying him in conjunction with the trip to the store.....it could be that he is buried in the vicinity of the campground somewhere.... which I think is still also a possibility, given Klein's statements about where they plan to search.

Surely if he was in the vicinity of the campground one of the sniffer dogs would have found him? I feel the place to search is somewhere down the "hauling off down the road" road, within close walking distance either side, maybe somewhere on a bend or where a car would be hidden from any other passing traffic.

We know there were three 911 calls, one from VDK, would cell forensics be able to prove whether he attempted to call for help BEFORE he hauled off for better signal, even if the call didn't connect? Just looking at my iPhone and it lists calls that never got through, so I guess LE could check that. It might be one of the pieces of "evidence" they have against him.
 
OT, but I have a fourth grader right now, so we're fully immersed in Idaho history at the moment... (Franklin is the town, BTW). :-)

I'm part Idahoan. Lived there from 1982-1988, then a few summers thereafter. In November we moved back, although to a totally different area. So I'm bummed that all I know about Idaho history is the history I myself made in Idaho.

I will say one thing, I did not miss hearing all the old potato jokes again. I'm sick of them, I really yam.
 
The most obvious road for whoever to take from the camp site to hide something, I've always thought, is road 172; I think another poster just referenced it. From the camp ground, you would drive back to the campground entrance on 172A, like you were going back to Leadore, but then turn back onto 172, which goes along the east side of the reservoir, and extends a couple of miles; one mile I think if you're driving, another two if you're on ATV etc. It's also the road you take to get to the upper campground. Also, it's a road that I believe VDK referenced as the one where you can look down into the campground.
I've wondered how far you could drive in a truck etc., maybe you could go farther than a mile. The problem is that it is the most obvious route, and I would think it would have been checked thoroughly.
 
Question.....If any of our 4 campers went to hide and bury Little DeOrr (ack...it's such a horrible thought), wouldn't they have scent of deceased human on them and the dogs would have been all over them?
 
Surely if he was in the vicinity of the campground one of the sniffer dogs would have found him? I feel the place to search is somewhere down the "hauling off down the road" road, within close walking distance either side, maybe somewhere on a bend or where a car would be hidden from any other passing traffic.

We know there were three 911 calls, one from VDK, would cell forensics be able to prove whether he attempted to call for help BEFORE he hauled off for better signal, even if the call didn't connect? Just looking at my iPhone and it lists calls that never got through, so I guess LE could check that. It might be one of the pieces of "evidence" they have against him.

I totally agree with "within close walking distance either side" of the road.

If someone was going to just bury the boy in a shallow grave or maybe even just cover with leaves then they are not going to venture too far off the road.

They would not want to have to carry the boy far.

So the good news for searchers and us when checking google maps is I think we can safely assume the area he most likely is in would be pretty close to one of the roads.

That one road that was mentioned that has blockage or impassable sounds interesting. If they were heading up to the campground and had run into that dead end and then a day later there is a mishap where the boy ends up dead and you have to find an area to dispose of a body then it is not too far fetched to think that maybe they remembered that secluded spot where the road became impassable.

That would be one area I would want to search just for that reason alone. Because they may have hit that impassable spot and it may have made an impression on them.

And they would know nobody should come driving along that road and catch them burying the body. Because the road is impassable and they would remember that and know that nobody would likely be driving down that road to the impassable spot.
 
I'm part Idahoan. Lived there from 1982-1988, then a few summers thereafter. In November we moved back, although to a totally different area. So I'm bummed that all I know about Idaho history is the history I myself made in Idaho.

I will say one thing, I did not miss hearing all the old potato jokes again. I'm sick of them, I really yam.

I know, right? Welcome back!
 
Question.....If any of our 4 campers went to hide and bury Little DeOrr (ack...it's such a horrible thought), wouldn't they have scent of deceased human on them and the dogs would have been all over them?

That is a horrible thought, and one I don't have an answer for.

However, I was just thinking why did they call 911 when they did? It was Friday, seems like you could easily "use" an extra day or two to get things hidden, stories straight, etc. before calling authorities. I wonder if it was their intent to stay the whole weekend?

That said, in my eyes that makes it less likely that IR and GGP knew much of anything at all. If all 4 were in on it or at least in the cover-up then there was no reason for them to not take all the dang time in the world before alerting authorities, a couple days if needed!!! So I'm thinking perhaps Deorr was noticeably missing FOR SURE and that put the pressure on JM and Vernal to call for SAR.

I also have a feeling, just a gut feeling, that JM and Vernal were not on the same page with GGP when it came to calling 911. I don't think we know the order of the calls for sure, but for some reason I'm thinking GGP was like, hey, it's time to call, NOW. Knowing he was about to call 911 probably spurred Vernal and Jessica into action. I still wonder if GGP's call had something to do with the "accident" or contained more info than necessary for a straightforwardly (? lol) missing child.

JMO.
 
Question.....If any of our 4 campers went to hide and bury Little DeOrr (ack...it's such a horrible thought), wouldn't they have scent of deceased human on them and the dogs would have been all over them?

JMO
Its a great question and since I used to have a bird hunting dog once I can take a guess what would happen.

Since the cadaver dogs typically have their nose to the ground when hunting, I think the dogs may get a little agitated around the person and may start zig zagging around where the person just walked but I don't think it would be an obvious "hit". Like I doubt the dog would jump on the person or anything like that because their nose would be to the ground and they would continue to frantically try to find a body which they expect to be hidden on the ground somewhere and so they would likely keep looking thinking it has to be somewhere closeby on the ground.

When one of the cadaver search dogs actually find a body, then I think those type of search dogs are trained to sit down or just stop when they find a real "hit" on a body.
If they caught wind of a body on a live person I suspect they may get a little more excited but I think they would continue to frantically look on the ground with nose to ground.

One thing though. A good dog handler of one of those cadaver dogs may very well spot that the dog is reacting to them.

Now if LE were running live body search dogs and those dogs had a good scent of the boy then they very well may "hit" on one of the parents but the problem with that is LE would just think that is normal because of course the parents were around the boy.
 
I can't remember which thread I learned about this, but isn't there a period of time before a deceased body starts emitting the 'scent of death' that a cadaver dog picks up on? I think I recall it's a couple of hours, can anyone clarify?
 
I can't remember which thread I learned about this, but isn't there a period of time before a deceased body starts emitting the 'scent of death' that a cadaver dog picks up on? I think I recall it's a couple of hours, can anyone clarify?

Absolutely and from what I remember it is much shorter time than I had expected. I will try to look it up.
 
I can't remember which thread I learned about this, but isn't there a period of time before a deceased body starts emitting the 'scent of death' that a cadaver dog picks up on? I think I recall it's a couple of hours, can anyone clarify?

I found the answer. It is documented from this study in this link. You were right that it is roughly 2 hours to 3 hours.

"....the minimum post mortem time interval for which our dogs can perceive the difference between live and dead scent.....The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours."

http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
 
So a dead body can be in a car / trunk / house / wherever for a good hour and a dog wouldn't pick it up (reliably).
 
Absolutely and from what I remember it is much shorter time than I had expected. I will try to look it up.

Funnily enough when I first heard it was two hours I thought that was longer than I expected! DeOrrs "alive" scent should and would have been present in the truck, so if VDK removed his body relatively quickly it stands to reason the dogs wouldn't smell anything out of the ordinary.
 
That is a horrible thought, and one I don't have an answer for.

However, I was just thinking why did they call 911 when they did? It was Friday, seems like you could easily "use" an extra day or two to get things hidden, stories straight, etc. before calling authorities. I wonder if it was their intent to stay the whole weekend?

That said, in my eyes that makes it less likely that IR and GGP knew much of anything at all. If all 4 were in on it or at least in the cover-up then there was no reason for them to not take all the dang time in the world before alerting authorities, a couple days if needed!!! So I'm thinking perhaps Deorr was noticeably missing FOR SURE and that put the pressure on JM and Vernal to call for SAR.

I also have a feeling, just a gut feeling, that JM and Vernal were not on the same page with GGP when it came to calling 911. I don't think we know the order of the calls for sure, but for some reason I'm thinking GGP was like, hey, it's time to call, NOW. Knowing he was about to call 911 probably spurred Vernal and Jessica into action. I still wonder if GGP's call had something to do with the "accident" or contained more info than necessary for a straightforwardly (? lol) missing child.

JMO.

BBM. The same thoughts have crossed my mind as well. I have wondered if just one of the parents had disappeared DeOrr, with the other not suspecting or knowing until some time later.

In this theory, one possibility is that things happened pretty much just as was told to SB in the beginning. The parents, along with DeOrr, went to the Stage Stop, then returned to the campground. DK asks IR to take him and JM to the creek to show them where he & GGP had been fishing. DeOrr is left at the campsite to hang out with GGP. The other three head down to the creek; JM begins fishing, IR moves down the creek aways. At some point, VDK tells JM he is going to get DeOrr to bring him to the creek; he goes alone. I recall on sm when JM was describing what happened in her own words, I remember thinking, yes I see your point that IR was out of sight for a significant amount of time, but based on your own words, so was VDK!

When VDK stated in the interview that when he arrived back to the campground to get DeOrr but he was nowhere to be found, that GGP said "I thought he came up to you!", I believe that very well could have happened. As in, GGP literally witnessed DeOrr going up to VDK. Perhaps VDK didn't think GGP saw.

And for whatever reason, whether it was an accident or intentional, DeOrr was killed or badly injured while with VDK. I imagine that things happened very quickly...VDK probably hid DeOrr in his truck, then initiated the whole "Deorr is missing!" charade. There were at least 3 working phones at the campsite...VDK's, JM's, and GGP's. Once JM/GGP decided to call 911, VDK knew he needed to dispose of the body. He hurries to his truck and hauls down the road with the excuse that he wants to be sure that he will have service on his phone, even though it would have taken seconds for him to see that JM/GGP phone got through. There really was no reason for him to haul off in his truck. He probably called 911 while in his truck not only to establish a reason for hauling away from the campsite, but also to get an idea of how much time he had before S&R would arrive. DeOrr is probably somewhere close to the campsite. And VDK has just been VERY VERY lucky that he has not been found as of yet. In the interview, VDK made it a point to convince us that DeOrr was "100%" not up on that mountain. I think that is why they started to push the abduction theory as opposed to "he wandered off and we just haven't found him yet", because they wanted people to focus away from the mountain.

I think that this theory, or something close, could explain JM's behavior as well. I think that she suspected at first, but certainly knows the truth by now. But she has chosen to stand by her man. When I see JM in interviews, I see a mix of annoyance and humiliation, with a little tinge of guilt. But not guilt because of what happened to DeOrr. Rather, guilt that instead of sadness and anger over his disappearance, she feels relief. And she's sick and tired of having to go through this charade, she's over it. Terrible, I know. But there it is.

So this is just one theory that has crossed my mind.

imo
 
Surely if he was in the vicinity of the campground one of the sniffer dogs would have found him? I feel the place to search is somewhere down the "hauling off down the road" road, within close walking distance either side, maybe somewhere on a bend or where a car would be hidden from any other passing traffic.

We know there were three 911 calls, one from VDK, would cell forensics be able to prove whether he attempted to call for help BEFORE he hauled off for better signal, even if the call didn't connect? Just looking at my iPhone and it lists calls that never got through, so I guess LE could check that. It might be one of the pieces of "evidence" they have against him.

He could also have been miles away when he called. It could have been a pre arranged time for both JM and VDK to call 911. Nothing other then their words say that he JUST left the campsite hauling off when JM called...again, those cell phone pings will hopefully be key evidence and perhaps help LE know where to search.
 
Here is a property for sale on Lee Creek Road, less than a mile before you turn onto Swan Basin Road to go to the campground. It's a few miles from Leadore.
This gives you an idea of the terrain in the area. Beautiful isn't it? Only 4.6 million dollars!
If you scroll down on the map, you can see how Swan Basin Road continues south, parallel to the Timbercreek Campground roads. I think someone up thread was referencing this, sorry I can't attribute who. Oh, now I see what was confusing me--Swan Basin Road is also FS105, or it runs into it. So you get to the point where you can either turn southwest to go to the campground, or you can continue on Swan Basin that kind of meanders south. Lots of roads and trails. Nothing new, I don't think, but I like this map.
If you want to know what "the mountain" refers to, there you go.



http://www.landandfarm.com/property/Farm_Ranch_Leadore_ID-2547146/
 
Question.....If any of our 4 campers went to hide and bury Little DeOrr (ack...it's such a horrible thought), wouldn't they have scent of deceased human on them and the dogs would have been all over them?

Thinking back to little Lonzie Barton case and monster Ruben Ebron having the "luxury" of dropping off his clothing at the Laundromat after his evil deed ...IF either or both DVK JM carried little DeOrr after his demise (Hate typing this), what did they do with their clothing? Bury, burn, put in dumpster?
 
I think they may have new ideas about where to search based on phone pings and "new witness" testimony? Maybe?

Thanks Aunt_Tulip. I just don't understand (still) why they are bringing E-Search and cadaver dogs in after the thaw. If it's been frozen up there, how was Klein able to determine a new place to search? It can't be based on something JM said, right? Still confused.
 
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