ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[erinp]

Don't have a link, but it has been reported that SAR arrived at a bit before 4:00 pm. They stayed and searched straight for 12 hours. So VDK was saying that he was with search and rescue until quarter to 4 the next morning.

ok thanks

 

[Mickshawn]

I might be confused but I think that Klein talked to the person where they filled up with diesel on the way up and said that that person saw DK and JM (but he didn't recall if there was a child). Does this sound right or am I mistaken?

Oh yeah...right...(so WHERE was the baby????????????? Hmmmmmmmmmm)

 

[white rabbit]

mickshawn, good point (your post page 5). I've thought the same.

and for the poster (I can't keep track nor quote posts) that cited IR's interview, for me it all goes back to that. he's the only one who spoke out even with an attorney and no matter what his demeanor, coached or otherwise, gave completely lucid insight. give me a second to get the interview. there's one portion that sticks out more than the rest...

 

[white rabbit]

the baby, DEORR, was at the campsite. in what state of life, we don't know. when IR was interviewed, he didn't evade the question but had 'no comment' as to what happened on 'the mountain' that day...obviously been coached by his attorney and responded point blank to the question "will this come out In court"..."yes". still trying to find the dang transcript...

 

[hmartin]

On the missing poster.. They said he had "blonde bushy hair" wtf... Who says that about a kid... Maybe a dog, but a kid? My daughter has very curly hair and if it gets called bushy she cries..

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[MBK]

How long DeOrr Jnr was missing for is one of those big mysteries about the case and most likely one of the things that differs each time the parents tell the story to law enforcement. (snip)I honestly find it hard to believe anyone would take 40 to 50 minutes to search for a 2 year old in a remote camping spot near multiple water locations (creek and reservoir) before calling 911. So the gap must be that they were gone for a lot longer than they want us to believe. Perhaps the sensitive issue is where they went and why and what were they doing?

IMHO, and I don't know how to express this properly, but Deorr didn't go missing, per se.

He was "disappeared".

IMHO, he didn't wander off, he wasn't abducted . . . he was disappeared BY his parent(s).

So, it's not a matter of going off for a time and doing WHATEVER. That is a story. Stories. 9 stories on the part of VK. It's a narrative, but it didn't HAPPEN. The hours in that day may have been about "buying time", but not spent exploring or searching for Deorr. Little Deorr wasn't gone for any amount of time - - 17 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever - - he was "GONE". Gone gone.

(Of course, I am also intrigued by the idea that he may have been alive at 6 pm that day, dirty and bawling at the store . .. but that's another narrative. Hmmph)

 

[erinp]

On the missing poster.. They said he had "blonde bushy hair" wtf... Who says that about a kid... Maybe a dog, but a kid? My daughter has very curly hair and if it gets called bushy she cries..

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yes and in the 911 call she said he had shaggy blond hair. Outside of a scooby doo cartoon I've not heard the word shaggy used in a sentence and certainly not to describe the hair of a missing child. Also, all the photos I have seen of DeOrr, his hair looks neither bushy nor shaggy

 

[Mickshawn]

Do we know WHERE they filled up with diesel? (More than once?)

 

[MBK]

On the missing poster.. They said he had "blonde bushy hair" wtf... Who says that about a kid... Maybe a dog, but a kid? My daughter has very curly hair and if it gets called bushy she cries..

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I think it's just poor word choice. There are some pix where Deorr's hair has been slicked down (like the restaurant pix). Maybe it was too long and a little shaggy, but "bushy"? That doesn't make sense for a little boy with straight hair.

 

[MBK]

yes and in the 911 call she said he had shaggy blond hair. Outside of a scooby doo cartoon I've not heard the word shaggy used in a sentence and certainly not to describe the hair of a missing child. Also, all the photos I have seen of DeOrr, his hair looks neither bushy nor shaggy

Shaggy . ..bushy . . . filthy . . . interesting word choices.

 

[erinp]

FWIW this is my latest theory.

Due to the court case JM had coming up about the $20K debt, they decided to fake DeOrr's kidnapping to raise money for a "ransom". They roped IR into it and asked him to be the one to disappear DeOrr out of the campground while they ran around and all 3 (JM, VK, GGP) of them looked for him and rang 911. IR hid DeOrr somewhere but he unfortunately got spotted trying to buy him candy in Leadore at 6pm. Maybe something really did happen to DeOrr since and he is deceased somewhere up on the mountain but that was not part of the original plan. Unfortunately this all got bigger than Ben Hur. IR was told it'd be a harmless prank, he'd make a few bucks and he didn't want to admit his part to it at the start but perhaps now he has come forward.

 

[persimmon]

FWIW this is my latest theory.

Due to the court case JM had coming up about the $20K debt, they decided to fake DeOrr's kidnapping to raise money for a "ransom". They roped IR into it and asked him to be the one to disappear DeOrr out of the campground while they ran around and all 3 (JM, VK, GGP) of them looked for him and rang 911. IR hid DeOrr somewhere but he unfortunately got spotted trying to buy him candy in Leadore at 6pm. Maybe something really did happen to DeOrr since and he is deceased somewhere up on the mountain but that was not part of the original plan. Unfortunately this all got bigger than Ben Hur. IR was told it'd be a harmless prank, he'd make a few bucks and he didn't want to admit his part to it at the start but perhaps now he has come forward.

The 6pm sighting of a crying child and man in Leadore would have occurred when law enforcement were at the campsite searching, questioning, and establishing a timeline. It seems if one of the 4 members of the camping trip were missing for hours when they arrived they would have been suspicious. Moreover, they would have thoroughly investigated that angle and arrived at something by now. The man and child would have been in VDKs truck. I cannot think of a way they could have possibly explained away the missing vehicle and IR. JMO

 

[persimmon]

Relative to my previous post, but really just in general because it's been coming up lately is my belief that JMs debt had no bearing on the case. Looking through the Repository reveals that almost all the individuals related to DeOrr have been sued for money owed at some point. It sounds like 20 grand is a lot and therefore catapults JMs situation to a more serious level, but in collections the amount is irrelevant when discussing unsecured loans
By loans, I mean credit of any type not secured by a purchase such as a house or car that can be taken in the event the individual fails to pay. There is no real punishment or recourse for owing money. We have no debtors prison here so the outcome is a bad credit score and that is all. There is no attaching wages for debt unless its child support or possibly (and this is highly unlikely) due to a court judgement. This debt was not either of those so I don't think it has importance. Essentially, it's can't pay...won't pay...end of story. Many of these collections type cases are nothing more than formalities so the company can collect through tax write offs.

 

[erinp]

The 6pm sighting of a crying child and man in Leadore would have occurred when law enforcement were at the campsite searching, questioning, and establishing a timeline. It seems if one of the 4 members of the camping trip were missing for hours when they arrived they would have been suspicious. Moreover, they would have thoroughly investigated that angle and arrived at something by now. The man and child would have been in VDKs truck. I cannot think of a way they could have possibly explained away the missing vehicle and IR. JMO

Maybe when LE initially arrived, the 3 remaining adults didn't tell them about IR? IR wasn't mentioned in the interview the parents gave on the following monday. Perhaps they still hadn't told LE about him either? I mean in those early reports, we were told that the family had only just arrived that Friday morning - it seems right from the get go, false information was being disseminated. And they explained away the sighting at 6pm as not actually happening at 6pm but much earlier in the day? So this is perhaps one of the inconsistencies that has worried LE

 

[OSpyder]

That has always bothered me as somebody who came out of the womb carrying a roast beef in one arm and the groceries in the other. Ugh, I was a HUGE baby! I always had "frizzy" hair and chubby cheeks but I turned out ALL legs and tons of hair, yet I disappear when I turn sideways in the wind. Ha! My parents learned at a very early age (probably not when I was quite as young as Deorr) that their descriptions of me were very hurtful, even when not intended to be so. Bushy hair isn't the worst I have heard but to see that exact wording in so many places w/ Little D, it just sinks my heart. He was probably too young to think much of it but to me, it just seems so staged. Maybe I am just over critical of myself, STILL, but if I were Deorr and found alive, I would be devastated. It sounds so fictional and so cartoonish!

 

[Lillahazel]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that it's alleged that IR disappeared at some point during the afternoon? Maybe it was him with DeOrr at the store? Maybe VK and JM had hidden DeOrr somewhere and smuggled him out through Leadore with IR? Was DeOrr bawling because he was with a strange man and was IR buying him candy because how else do you get a toddler that's screaming at you to calm down? (thinking about his thought processes, not necessarily my own). As to motive for all that, well I have no idea

If IR participated wouldn't he still be considered a suspect?

 

[erinp]

If IR participated wouldn't he still be considered a suspect?

that is a good point... maybe it wasn't IR but someone else known to the parents.

my hinky alert just goes off about that 6pm filthy bawling sighting and how desperate VK was for us to all think it was HIM and no-one else but that it definitely wasn't 6pm that night. Leads me to believe it was at 6pm and wasn't him (ie. the opposite of what he was claiming because he's a lying liar who lies). but still was DeOrr

 

[ZooSleuth]

Maybe when LE initially arrived, the 3 remaining adults didn't tell them about IR? IR wasn't mentioned in the interview the parents gave on the following monday. Perhaps they still hadn't told LE about him either? I mean in those early reports, we were told that the family had only just arrived that Friday morning - it seems right from the get go, false information was being disseminated. And they explained away the sighting at 6pm as not actually happening at 6pm but much earlier in the day? So this is perhaps one of the inconsistencies that has worried LE

BBM. IIRC all 4 of the adults had to stay at the campground for a couple days after the disappearance so I don't think a scenario like that is possible.

 

[erinp]

Relative to my previous post, but really just in general because it's been coming up lately is my belief that JMs debt had no bearing on the case. Looking through the Repository reveals that almost all the individuals related to DeOrr have been sued for money owed at some point. It sounds like 20 grand is a lot and therefore catapults JMs situation to a more serious level, but in collections the amount is irrelevant when discussing unsecured loans
By loans, I mean credit of any type not secured by a purchase such as a house or car that can be taken in the event the individual fails to pay. There is no real punishment or recourse for owing money. We have no debtors prison here so the outcome is a bad credit score and that is all. There is no attaching wages for debt unless its child support or possibly (and this is highly unlikely) due to a court judgement. This debt was not either of those so I don't think it has importance. Essentially, it's can't pay...won't pay...end of story. Many of these collections type cases are nothing more than formalities so the company can collect through tax write offs.

thanks for that information. in australia where i'm from, we don't have credit scores or debtors prison either. but if someone takes you to court for a large debt and a judgement is entered against you in the court, then the person who is owed the debt can ask for an order to be made that possessions or your car etc be seized in satisfaction of the debt, and even that wages be garnished.

perhaps they did a fake kidnapping just to get money, just because. and it all went awry

 

[Hatfield]

FWIW this is my latest theory.

Due to the court case JM had coming up about the $20K debt, they decided to fake DeOrr's kidnapping to raise money for a "ransom". They roped IR into it and asked him to be the one to disappear DeOrr out of the campground while they ran around and all 3 (JM, VK, GGP) of them looked for him and rang 911. IR hid DeOrr somewhere but he unfortunately got spotted trying to buy him candy in Leadore at 6pm. Maybe something really did happen to DeOrr since and he is deceased somewhere up on the mountain but that was not part of the original plan. Unfortunately this all got bigger than Ben Hur. IR was told it'd be a harmless prank, he'd make a few bucks and he didn't want to admit his part to it at the start but perhaps now he has come forward.

I was unaware of a pending court case involving a substantial debt.

Your theory is as good as some others.
I have flip flopped on theories a few times during this case but have not wavered on the parents knowing what happened to the boy. The money debt adds fuel to that.

I go back to the IR interview and it makes me hesitate to think he was part of their plan. I think for now I have to stick with a variation of your theory and maybe just remove IR as being part of it.

Here are some reasons why I don't think IR really could have been part of it.

1-He claims to have not even known them until that trip.
Its hard to fathom him agreeing with a plot like that with people he hardly knew.

2-I think he and GGP could have easily been duped by VDK and JM.
If parents removed the boy during the store run and then as soon as they get back to camp they take a short stroll to the creek and then upon walking back to the camping area, they immediately begin a fake panic and begin a great acting job and start acting crazy. Where is he? Where is he?

Anyone in that position would take the parents lead and start looking around the immediate area with them. IR and GGP would not be thinking anything sinister at that point and would begin the hunt in the immediate area. I think this explains why they didn't search up near the main lake too much before calling 911. The parents wanted to keep acting in front of IR and GGP and acting like parents looking for their boy. They needed to stay close to them to demonstrate their escalating panic and start shedding some tears before finally calling 911.

3-IR just comes across credible to me. He may have me fooled but I just don't think he was part of anything sinister. I think he was used as a pawn.


Anyway, I do agree the dirty boy sighting is intriguing but I think if anything that was probably VDK with the boy and not IR. And I thought VDK was saying it may have been the day before and the clerk had the day wrong?
Which would put the sighting Thursday and not Friday.

But even if it was Friday then I think it is possible that VDK somehow managed to go "searching" in his vehicle and could have panicked and moved the boy because searchers were getting too close.

The general theory though is a good one.
Assuming this was a plan to extort money to pay back a debt then it could explain some things. It could explain their lack of emotion. If they had the boy tied to a tree and couldn't get back to him before a cold night's elements made him die of exposure then in their sick way of thinking they may think it really was an accident and could be why we don't see emotions like we expected.

Its either that or he really was handed off to someone to take care of him till the dust settles. I've always wondered and hoped that he is being held by someone they gave the boy too. Wishful thinking I suppose.