ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[erinp]

I reckon I could accept the clerk getting the day wrong if they were being asked to remember back a long time, because let's face it, who can remember what day something happened 6 months ago. But VK and JM were talking about the rumour on the Monday after DeOrr disappeared. So the sighting came to others' attention sometime between friday and monday. I would have though the clerk would find it hard to get a date wrong when asked only a day or two or three later. Additionally, if it was the Thursday night, then wouldn't VK and JM have said "yes that was us but the night before". They didn't they tried to claim it was early on Friday.

 

[desert-blue]

Thankyou! So that means that the first responders didn't get there until around a quarter to 4. So VK must mean they were waiting for them until that time, not that they were with them until that time.

The other fascinating thing out of your link remains the time of the 911 calls. JM was obviously the last one at 2:28 because we heard the time stamp on her released 911 call. So VK must have been the 2:22 or the 2:26 call. But if JM stayed back in camp to try to ring them while he "hauled about a half a mile down the road", then how come VK got through to 911 BEFORE her? Wouldn't she have tried to call straight away and gotten through before VK had gotten to the cell phone sweet spot up the road? Why did she wait for a few minutes? Weren't they in a dead panic?

And one of the other calls must have been GGP who was there with her already. So why did she place the third 911 call when she must have known at least that GGP had called? I do not understand it at all!

The 911 calls are really intriguing - the order, the whereabouts of the callers, and probably what was said... it's all a bit unclear at this time. However, I feel that GGPA may have been the catalyst. I think it's possible that they HAD been looking (well, two of them were pretending, IMO) for an hour and GGPA said enough is enough - someone needs to call 911 and if you don't, I will. And he did. MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

I reckon I could accept the clerk getting the day wrong if they were being asked to remember back a long time, because let's face it, who can remember what day something happened 6 months ago. But VK and JM were talking about the rumour on the Monday after DeOrr disappeared. So the sighting came to others' attention sometime between friday and monday. I would have though the clerk would find it hard to get a date wrong when asked only a day or two or three later. Additionally, if it was the Thursday night, then wouldn't VK and JM have said "yes that was us but the night before". They didn't they tried to claim it was early on Friday.

I don't think they really wanted anyone to know that they arrived on Thursday, since it took months for that detail to even emerge...

 

[erinp]

In this post on Klein Investigation's page some interesting comments were made. others may have seen them long ago but I only just noticed them.

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/937132659702652

i posted a few days ago that I was puzzled why scent dogs would be confused by cremains and surely that means it would have been cadaver dogs at the reservoir. Klein actually specifically says it was scent dogs that were confused at the reservoir by the cremains and that it was NOT cadaver dogs. Why wouldn cremains confuse dogs looking for a little boy's scent?

secondly, he says the scent dogs picked up NO TRACE of DeOrr at the campsite. That is huge to me and I did not know that before today. How can there have been NO SCENT at all at the campsite? Given IR says he definitely was at the campground, does this mean DeOrr did in fact come to the campground but never made it out of the parents' truck to leave a scent anywhere?

 

[ReadySet]

I might be confused but I think that Klein talked to the person where they filled up with diesel on the way up and said that that person saw DK and JM (but he didn't recall if there was a child). Does this sound right or am I mistaken?

No, you're right; it's when JM was seen getting out of the truck on the passenger side.

 

[erinp]

I don't think they really wanted anyone to know that they arrived on Thursday, since it took months for that detail to even emerge...

it does appear that way. and the obvious question is WHY

 

[Hatfield]

that is a good point... maybe it wasn't IR but someone else known to the parents.

my hinky alert just goes off about that 6pm filthy bawling sighting and how desperate VK was for us to all think it was HIM and no-one else but that it definitely wasn't 6pm that night. Leads me to believe it was at 6pm and wasn't him (ie. the opposite of what he was claiming because he's a lying liar who lies). but still was DeOrr

I know what you mean as it really stood out during the interview how he quickly tried to squash it. He wanted to squash it so badly that it became very obviously suspicious.

Because lets think about it from a missing boy perspective. If you are a parent and a reporter tells you that they think they saw the boy with someone at the store then wouldn't you want to pursue and dig into that to get as much information about it as possible. You surely would not want to just squash it.

I still think it could have been VDK himself though but he had to squash it because he was supposed to be out searching for him.
Either that or someone he handed the boy off to in order to hide till dust settles.

 

[erinp]

I know what you mean as it really stood out during the interview how he quickly tried to squash it. He wanted to squash it so badly that it became very obviously suspicious.

Because lets think about it from a missing boy perspective. If you are a parent and a reporter tells you that they think they saw the boy with someone at the store then wouldn't you want to pursue and dig into that to get as much information about it as possible. You surely would not want to just squash it.

I still think it could have been VDK himself though but he had to squash it because he was supposed to be out searching for him.
Either that or someone he handed the boy off to in order to hide till dust settles.

yes i have always been bothered by it. if my 2 year old daughter went missing at 2pm on a friday, and someone told me they saw a girl matching her description filthy and bawling in the local store at 6pm that night in the arms of some woman, i would want to do everything in my power to find out whether that sighting was true or not. i would NOT immediately say "oh well i was in that store with her earlier that day so that must have been what they saw".

 

[Hatfield]

I may be thinking Leodore is closer to the campground than it actually is. Does anyone know the approximate driving time it would take to get to Leodore from Campground area?

The reason I am asking is we know the parents were waiting for LE to come somewhere around 4ish and the alleged filthy boy sighting is somewhere around 6ish. So I am trying to see if it is even possible that VDK could have been the person if he left to go "search" lets say around 4:30-4:45.

Could he have made Leaodore by 6?

Im thinking if it was him then he could have been in constant phone contact with LE saying I am searching all the roads and still cant find him and heading back now. Or something along those lines.

 

[armywife210]

LE and the organized searchers would need a warrant to search private lands. Some of this land may be held by companies/corporations. The warrants would have to be served on the proper officer of the corp/company to be valid. Those officers may not be in the state. Just a suggestion that it could take a while to get the warrant served.

Maybe some or all private lands were not searched during the initial massive search and VDK was just taking a jab by pointing out all the areas that have not been searched.

Sometimes I think that DeOrr was not on the trip to Leadore, but was left with GGP at the campsite for a few hours while IR was fishing.

What if these two are such rotten, no-good, bad character, drug addict, irresponsible people who neglect and abuse their child and an aging relative, with not much to lose, decided the child was better off with another family and that his last meaningful act on Earth was to arrange a disappearance?

There is a movie where the child is intentionally taken from her drug addict mother's at risk life. It was arranged by the child's uncle and the new parents were an LE commander and his wife. Some people get tired of waiting for the system to save the kid. I dunno.

That would be the only good outcome I could figure. However, sadly, I don't think it went down that way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ReadySet]

Shaggy . ..bushy . . . filthy . . . interesting word choices.

Yes...my son at that age, also blonde then, had very thick, coarse hair. I would never call it "bushy" though, even when he needed a haircut. When I read the word "bushy", I expected to see hair like my son's in little Deorr's pictures. But it doesn't look that thick and coarse. I don't know. I agree it's an odd word choice.

 

[erinp]

I may be thinking Leodore is closer to the campground than it actually is. Does anyone know the approximate driving time it would take to get to Leodore from Campground area?

The reason I am asking is we know the parents were waiting for LE to come somewhere around 4ish and the alleged filthy boy sighting is somewhere around 6ish. So I am trying to see if it is even possible that VDK could have been the person if he left to go "search" lets say around 4:30-4:45.

Could he have made Leaodore by 6?

Im thinking if it was him then he could have been in constant phone contact with LE saying I am searching all the roads and still cant find him and heading back now. Or something along those lines.

google maps tells me that Timber Creek Campground is 9.8 miles from Leadore. It estimates travelling time at 24 minutes although other posters have mentioned that it takes longer than that.

 

[1&2&3]

Is it possible that the clerk at the store saw "the family" on Thursday night at 6:00 PM?

Since VK and JM were so adamant that they were not at the store on Friday night, could it be it was Thursday night? After all, they kept it a secret that they arrived on Thursday night for months.

IMO, the reason they did not tell about arriving Thursday night had something to do with VK taking off early from his job without permission. IF that is the case, the weekend started out on a lie that just grew to unimaginable proportions.

My opinions only.

 

[Hatfield]

google maps tells me that Timber Creek Campground is 9.8 miles from Leadore. It estimates travelling time at 24 minutes although other posters have mentioned that it takes longer than that.

Thank you. So it sounds like at least it is a possibility.

Thinking along the lines of them meeting with LE and saying they already searched the immediate area and since LE didn't want them interfering with the LE searching anyway maybe VDK somehow got permission to get in his vehicle to "search" the roads on his own.

The mileage and times at least provide a window of opportunity where it is possible it could have been him.

Its like anything else with this case. Its hard to determine anything for sure one way or another.

 

[KYPastTracker]

Perhaps I am delusional because I can't seem to locate anything to back this up, but I could almost swear that it was determined that the "filthy bawling boy" story was debunked and that it never happened - that it was never verified to have happened. It seems to me that either SB or Klein stated that there was no clerk or clerks in the store that could say that they had seen Deorr. Also, I'm pretty sure there were posters speculating that VK made this rumour up himself to try to make it look like Deorr was at the store at noon instead. Am I not remembering this correctly? I don't remember LE or Klein confirming the story. JMO.

 

[Tr.]

Why are we talking about finding cars with metal detectors if we don't know for sure that he had a car in his pocket (even though parents said he did)? Ground penetrating radar would be a much better search tool.

(Speaking of the car in his pocket, I can't remember if parents said it was in his jacket pocket or pants pocket. If pants pocket, do boys' pajama bottoms have pockets?)

EDIT - it was Grandpa Kunz that said he had a car in his pocket, but he did not say which pocket. Grandpa Kunz was not at the campground that we know of.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

Yeah..JM said (last interview)he had a toy car in his hand wherever he went..I can't find where she said there was one in his pocket.

I'm sure LE has taken in to consideration that masking of the remains scent may have taken place. I wonder if there were any purchases made that day that would lend to the probability of that.
I imagine they will use dogs and metal detectors in the broader areas and gpr in very specific spots.

 

[persimmon]

Maybe when LE initially arrived, the 3 remaining adults didn't tell them about IR? IR wasn't mentioned in the interview the parents gave on the following monday. Perhaps they still hadn't told LE about him either? I mean in those early reports, we were told that the family had only just arrived that Friday morning - it seems right from the get go, false information was being disseminated. And they explained away the sighting at 6pm as not actually happening at 6pm but much earlier in the day? So this is perhaps one of the inconsistencies that has worried LE

It's possible but I guess I just think that once they had learned that fact they would have investigated. It would seem like a huge red flag.

 

[La Louve]

LE and the organized searchers would need a warrant to search private lands. Some of this land may be held by companies/corporations. The warrants would have to be served on the proper officer of the corp/company to be valid. Those officers may not be in the state. Just a suggestion that it could take a while to get the warrant served.

Respectfully snipped and bolded by me

If a private property owner gave consent for LE/SAR to search, no warrant would be needed. If a judge was asked to issue a search warrant to an uncooperative owner, LE would need to show probable cause that there was evidence of a crime on the property.

Police Can Search if You Give Consent

If you give a police officer permission to search your person or your property, the officer can conduct a search and seize any evidence that is found. For example, imagine that a police officer stops you on the street. The officer asks to check your text messages to make sure you were not involved in a nearby drug deal. If you agree to let the officer search your cell phone, the search is legal.

Search Warrants Require Probable Cause

Most criminal searches of a suspect's property require a warrant. A search warrant is a court order that allows the police to conduct a search to find evidence of a crime. The officer must convince a judge that there is a valid reason to believe that evidence of a crime is located in a specific place. This valid reason is known as probable cause.

Once a judge issues a search warrant, the law enforcement officer can legally carry out a search without the suspect's permission. Warrants can authorize searches of homes, cars, and personal belongings, including cell phones and other electronic devices.

http://criminal.lawyers.com/criminal-law-basics/when-can-the-police-search-you-or-your-property.html

 

[Hatfield]

Perhaps I am delusional because I can't seem to locate anything to back this up, but I could almost swear that it was determined that the "filthy bawling boy" story was debunked and that it never happened - that it was never verified to have happened. It seems to me that either SB or Klein stated that there was no clerk or clerks in the store that could say that they had seen Deorr. Also, I'm pretty sure there were posters speculating that VK made this rumour up himself to try to make it look like Deorr was at the store at noon instead. Am I not remembering this correctly? I don't remember LE or Klein confirming the story. JMO.

I know there were lots of discussions about it.
That story came out pretty early and I tend to put more weight on the early stories since it was closer to the events happening.

 

[ReadySet]

I may be thinking Leodore is closer to the campground than it actually is. Does anyone know the approximate driving time it would take to get to Leodore from Campground area?

The reason I am asking is we know the parents were waiting for LE to come somewhere around 4ish and the alleged filthy boy sighting is somewhere around 6ish. So I am trying to see if it is even possible that VDK could have been the person if he left to go "search" lets say around 4:30-4:45.

Could he have made Leaodore by 6?

Im thinking if it was him then he could have been in constant phone contact with LE saying I am searching all the roads and still cant find him and heading back now. Or something along those lines.

20-40 minutes. But, I don't believe it was at all possible for VDK to have gone off on his own after the searchers got there. If he was seen in Leadore with little Deorr after the searchers got to the campground, it would all be over now.