ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[CoverMeCagney]

Not guilty means not guilty. In the USA some of us still hold to the meaning of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

In Scotland they have a middle ground verdict "not proven". I like it and can think of several cases it would apply.

"Not proven is a verdict available to a court in Scotland. As with other judicial systems, the burden to prove guilt rests with the prosecution. Under Scots law, a criminal trial may end in one of three verdicts: one of conviction ("guilty") and two of acquittal ("not proven" and "not guilty")"

 

[persimmon]

Wow, logged on to see lots of new posts only to find that the thread's turned into a FaceBook bashing frenzy. I can appreciate that some don't like FB and that's fine - it obviously doesn't float your boat. Others do like FB and that's fine too. Then there are those in the middle who see it as a "tool" and for some situations, like investigating crimes, it certainly can be (why else do some LE's have person(s) dedicated to it!)

If you're smart enough to spot a fake account from a legit one FB can be useful. Because of some people's need to post everything they say/think/do for the world to see you can learn a lot about the person (and their friends & family) such as how they think & behave. (I'll never understand such behaviour but maybe I'm from the wrong generation).

I respect the WS rule that if it isn't in MSM or on an MSM FB page then we can't mention it here - that helps keep out some of the crazyness. But at the same time I sometimes think that we're missing a trick by ignoring it completely. I read a while back someone suggested a thread being made in the Parking Lot (I think it was the PL) so that FB stuff could be discussed - perhaps this isn't such a bad idea because something gleaned from FB (or other social media tbh) could just be the thing that makes one of us have a lightbulb moment.

In other words, yes FB contains its fair share of crazies - but as with any source of information if one does some due diligence and applies critical thinking it can be useful. "FaceBook" and "critical thinking" are not mutually exclusive.

:moo:

I agree and was using a bit of hyperbole in my post. There can be useful information, but the problem in the case is that it gets buried in so many nasty unimportant comments. However, I have certainly looked at pages, posts, and comments and some have been fruitful.

I think the thing I really hate about some of the comment threads on this case is the fighting amongst commenters. It can go on for 100 comments and it often deteriorates into personal attacks that has no bearing on DeOrr. Many of the people seem to know each other online and there are bullies who control comments and derail anything that doesn't fit their agenda. The irony of some of these posters who claim to be there for something positive but spew so much negativity is pretty crazy. Nonetheless, you are right, and LE does often solve crimes through FB or other SM. You are also correct about people driven to divulge everything which is often how LE cracks a case. So aside from general keeping up with family and friends scattered around this big world, it has some very positive aspects and is one of many tools.

 

[persimmon]

I don't think the parents made up the sighting rumor. JM brought it up to debunk it and VDK decided to play it as a morning sighting in Leadore when they should have had a living breathing Deorr with them but actually did not.
"It was me..but it was earlier when we all went down there as a family". -VDK

Imo the only possible sighting would have had to be the day before.

FWIW I never believed they made up the rumor either. I believe the store clerk relayed what she saw to LE and from there VDK and JM turned it into something more than what it was...or felt it necessary to address it for whatever reason. My initial reaction was, "why immediately discredit a sighting of a man with a child resembling yours who is missing?"

SB never refuted that the store clerk said this but I think it was determined unrelated and left at that. However, I don't think it's important and I don't think it's one of their lies. Jmo

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

FWIW I never believed they made up the rumor either. I believe the store clerk relayed what she saw to LE and from there VDK and JM turned it into something more than what it was...or felt it necessary to address it for whatever reason. My initial reaction was, "why immediately discredit a sighting of a man with a child resembling yours who is missing?"

SB never refuted that the store clerk said this but I think it was determined unrelated and left at that. However, I don't think it's important and I don't think it's one of their lies. Jmo

FWIW, Klein said no one saw the kid at the store.

 

[persimmon]

FWIW, Klein said no one saw the kid at the store.

I missed that. Then I have no idea....it's odd but this case is filled with nonsense.

 

[persimmon]

You have no idea what I believe.

I worked in the judicial system all of my career until I retired. I understand the nuances in a court verdict and it's implications.

There is always jury nullification which adds a new dimension and allows for a jury not to follow the judge's instructions more or less. It doesn't happen often but it can. It's an essential feature to the foundation of our judicial system.

Not weighing in on this comment and response but just adding to what i read.

 

[MistyM]

i've been a 'member' for a long time on these boards, but as you can see i have little posts compared to others who have been here for less time. i do a lot of reading. many cases on here i've started from the beginning (deorr, arias, caylee anthony), others i've gotten interested in 20 threads later. i usually skip five pages at a time while catching up, because i like to avoid the devil's advocate debates... if i see new info i'll stop and go back a page or read a few ahead after until it gets redundant with no more info. all forums are like that. which is why i like facebook too.

i find the facebook pages on this case, that i belong to, are like a way less moderated ws. i might be in different groups than what some of you have seen but we basically ask questions on events and suggest possible scenarios. the thing i like about fb is because of it's liberal moderation, i can be on a page where someone in the family is talking or posting and comment. my comments are usually to the point. i don't often get angry at the suspects of a crime and am not a judgemental person. every post i post on fb is similar to what i post here. i'm more personal with people on fb so i also get really good feedback on my ideas, on ws, i feel a bit ignored.

that's all i gots.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Jeez, we really need something new to discuss.

:deadhorse:

 

[bessie]

Sometimes people may join this forum many, many threads into the case, IMO, for quite a few reasons. Maybe just joining WS or had an emergency that kept them from reading up on this case after there were many threads.

When little DeOrr disappeared, my mother was in intensive care for 10 days and then passed away. It was August before I started reading. I gradually got caught up but it was hard.

If I were just joining this forum I would die of old age before getting caught up after this many threads. I don't see why anyone would mind answering questions for a new member of the forum. I joined WS early July in 2008 and never remember it being a requirement of reading every single post before posting or asking a question.

I did, however, skip over a lot of the animal speculation because it was going round and round in circles. (and polygraph circle)

After several months, it is inevitable that things are repeated and old questions are asked again.

Sorry, but I just wanted to comment on this. It took me by surprise. I absolutely love WS and it has become a part of my daily life. When I retired it became something I spend quite a lot of time on.

JMO

Those are all very legit reasons for asking questions, LAL, and the majority of us understand that type of situation. The complaints I receive pertain to members who are always around, and still ask the same questions. Or read some new rumor on FB, and then ask questions about it here.

 

[bessie]

Very well said. Plus, last time I checked some of the old threads seemed to have been deleted in their entirety, which would make it impossible for newcomers to read them all before they started posting.

Less than truthful. No threads have been deleted.

 

[bessie]

I agree and was using a bit of hyperbole in my post. There can be useful information, but the problem in the case is that it gets buried in so many nasty unimportant comments. However, I have certainly looked at pages, posts, and comments and some have been fruitful.

I think the thing I really hate about some of the comment threads on this case is the fighting amongst commenters. It can go on for 100 comments and it often deteriorates into personal attacks that has no bearing on DeOrr. Many of the people seem to know each other online and there are bullies who control comments and derail anything that doesn't fit their agenda. The irony of some of these posters who claim to be there for something positive but spew so much negativity is pretty crazy. Nonetheless, you are right, and LE does often solve crimes through FB or other SM. You are also correct about people driven to divulge everything which is often how LE cracks a case. So aside from general keeping up with family and friends scattered around this big world, it has some very positive aspects and is one of many tools.

Agree. SM in general is a very effective investigative tool when viewed objectively, and with discernment. That's not always the case, unfortunately, especially with so many splinter groups on FB.

As for those who suggested a social media thread, I gave that idea a good bit of consideration. But after really looking into what was happening on FB, and how opinions were being mishapened by the falsehoods and halftruths posted on various sites -- not to mention the lynch mobs -- I decided it was out of the question. This is the LAST case which needs a SM thread. It works well in some cases, but not all. Been there, done that over the past six years.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I missed that. Then I have no idea....it's odd but this case is filled with nonsense.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992

 

[Little Ol Me]

FWIW I never believed they made up the rumor either. I believe the store clerk relayed what she saw to LE and from there VDK and JM turned it into something more than what it was...or felt it necessary to address it for whatever reason. My initial reaction was, "why immediately discredit a sighting of a man with a child resembling yours who is missing?"

SB never refuted that the store clerk said this but I think it was determined unrelated and left at that. However, I don't think it's important and I don't think it's one of their lies. Jmo

I agree that it's not important to the case, and that it's not something the parents made up.

SB has stated that he can't find anyone who saw Deorr after they left IF. That would include a store clerk....on either Thursday or Friday.

I have no reason to believe that the parents made this rumor up, or that they didn't ask LE to check out this rumor, as soon as they heard it. It would have given weight to their abduction claim.
Whether the parents ask or not, we know it was checked out.
The clerk doesn't remember seeing Deorr at all.

 

[Butler]

Agree. SM in general is a very effective investigative tool when viewed objectively, and with discernment. That's not always the case, unfortunately, especially with so many splinter groups on FB.

As for those who suggested a social media thread, I gave that idea a good bit of consideration. But after really looking into what was happening on FB, and how opinions were being mishapened by the falsehoods and halftruths posted on various sites -- not to mention the lynch mobs -- I decided it was out of the question. This is the LAST case which needs a SM thread. It works well in some cases, but not all. Been there, done that over the past six years.

:hills:BBM

 

[grillzgirl]

I guess I don't mind answering a simple, non-derailing question. It doesn't frustrate me or make me think that a person hasn't read the information available here. As someone who HAS read all of the threads (believe it or not, lol) on this case, I still often see from other members' posts that I missed something here or there. If you take one of the 26 threads here, just one, and go through and count the number of time members post and say "Oh! I must have missed that, thanks!" or the equivalent, you would see numerous posts containing this statement. Obviously, reading every thread does not guarantee 100% retention, due to normal memory limitations, the length of time and number of threads a case spans, and just not comprehending correctly the information one read.

If someone asks a "stupid" question, one that is a hot button issue that almost always derails the thread, or the context of their post containing the question indicates that the member is going down a path that will lead to a breakdown in the discussion, then, I can understand the frustration and passive aggressive comments about people who "don't read" the threads.

But, if a member asks a question that I thought everyone knew the answer to (maybe even thought it was a dumb question or wondered how they could have missed that info), but obviously isn't trying to instigate anything or go off on a distracting tangent, I would just answer it and move on. Instead of having 20 posts thereafter with members griping about the member who "doesn't read all the threads". That's much more derailing than just being polite, answering the question and moving on.

I don't hold it against a member who asks such a question. And, I'd hope that no one would hold it against me when I ask such an obviously "dumb" question. Everyone here has a large amount of knowledge of this case, and of the discussions here, but I can guarantee that each one of us here has gotten something wrong before, or has missed something. I have gone back to try to find an answer to a question I had, but was not able to find it. In those cases, I will ask here, usually with an apology for being so obviously daft that I couldn't find/overlooked this info before resorting to asking and raising the ire of those who either never, ever have asked a "stupid" question or won't allow themselves to look as lazy and dumb as those who do ask.

Taking a break. I apologize for being OT, derailing momentarily, any dumb questions I asked and for annoying those who know so much more than myself.

First post here. I have been lurking for a long time. This is the very reason why I don't ask questions on threads.

Great post.

 

[Butler]

I agree that it's not important to the case, and that it's not something the parents made up.

SB has stated that he can't find anyone who saw Deorr after they left IF. That would include a store clerk....on either Thursday or Friday.

I have no reason to believe that the parents made this rumor up, or that they didn't ask LE to check out this rumor, as soon as they heard it. It would have given weight to their abduction claim.
Whether the parents ask or not, we know it was checked out.
The clerk doesn't remember seeing Deorr at all.

I can't imagine LE didn't check it out.

My opinion is when listening to VDK one has to do a certain amount of shifting to get at what he is saying. His mouth runs at a faster speed than his brain so it is difficult to get clear understanding of what he is actually saying.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

First post here. I have been lurking for a long time. This is the very reason why I don't ask questions on threads.

Great post.

Please don't let anything put you posting off, grillzgirl. I've followed since day one but have missed a few threads, and with over 26000 posts it's very easy to miss a snippet of info. Besides, some of the most thought provoking posts come from "newbies". We were all one once!

And welcome!!

:welcome6:

 

[grillzgirl]

Please don't let anything put you posting off, grillzgirl. I've followed since day one but have missed a few threads, and with over 26000 posts it's very easy to miss a snippet of info. Besides, some of the most thought provoking posts come from "newbies". We were all one once!

And welcome!!

:welcome6:

Thank you!!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thank you!!

You're welcome, and ask away!!

In fact, maybe we should have an "Ask Us Anything" hour or something.

 

[Hoosier952]

I've been following this case since the very beginning and try my best to stay up to date with everything. I know I'm guilty of bringing up stuff from way back in the beginning. Sometimes a comment about something that happened later jogs my memory about something that happened way back in the beginning and makes me look at it differently or makes me question some tiny piece of information that may or may not be relevant to the case or the discussion. We all have our own opinions and those differing opinions will bring up differing questions and interpretations of what we've seen or heard. We'll put more thoughts and emphasis on different aspects of the case. Something that is old news or not worth discussing to me might be the most important part of the case to you.

These case is basically 9 months of unanswered questions and confusing statements. I have 9 months worth of questions and confusion to go along with it.