ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[SuperTmo]

bbm - I would surely think that 10ft apart won't pose a problem for a dog. They just sniff around until they find the next 'point'.

Good point. Ten feet is just an example I suppose, could be further apart. Big birds like that soar more than flap their wings so maybe he wouldn't be shaken around much so cells wouldn't be dropping. They also go pretty fast, so that could also increase distance. Do these dogs search in all directions from one point to the next, and for how far before they give up having lost the scent? I don't actually expect you to know the answer to these questions, lol. Just thinking "out loud." Unless you're a k9 handler, of course. =)

I hope this didn't happen to DeOrr. What a painful way to die. My small parrot bites incredibly hard. She bites rarely, and typically only if she wants the fruit I have or if I won't let her get in the fish tank, but man it HURTS! I can't even imagine how badly a bird like an Eagle would hurt a tiny kid.

 

[gitana1]

bbm - can you elaborate on that? 'Impossible' as in 'not legal'?

No. Not illegal. Although family members could likely sue if they refused to tell the public that a child had been abducted and they withheld info necessary to locating that child. But I see no way that LE would withhold such info under any circumstances except for far fetched conspiracy theory type nonsense. That would be insane.

 

[Hoosier952]

In regards to shedding skin cells, I'm not sure how the dogs track. Would the cells have to be in very close proximity for the dog to follow the scent? Or is a few cells here and then 10 feet away another few cells enough for a dog to track?

I don't think they know exactly how they track, but skin cells, sweat, respiration smells, breath, etc. I think are the biggest possibilities. I'm not certain on distance, but after years and years of rabbit hunting, I'm pretty sure that 10 ft would be nothing in dog smelling world. I wouldn't be surprised if hundreds of yards would be relatively easy for a well trained dog, but I'm sure a lot of that depends on how they are trained and what style of tracking they use.

 

[jmcgladr]

When my little girl is old enough to venture off without me I think the best I'll be able to do is require her to carry an iPhone that I can locate on iCloud. Assuming I ever let her venture off without me!!!

Look into the Hereo GPS watches - I am planning to get my sons them once I let them have more freedom. They are 8 and 10 and it hasn't happened yet, lol.

 

[SuperTmo]

Fkpollowing on the discussion on the nap time above, I brought a similar question up, and was told that Deoff did not go down for a nap before the parents went on their adventure. The nap was just an upcoming thing, it didn't happen before they left camp.

Just curious, were

See, that's just weird to me. Why go exploring without the child?

 

[rkf]

And if it's nap time why would monkey and blanket be locked in the car?

Another thing I've tried to understand is this: in their interview, the parents said that when they went exploring it was DeOrr's nap time, right? So how come they didn't wait for him to be asleep before they took off? Make sure he's safely asleep and tell the other adults in the camp that you'll be right back, the baby is sleeping, please keep an eye/ear out.

Then, if it was nap time why would the dad come rushing back to show the kid some minnows? They seem to be outdoorsy, its not like minnows are rare fish, so why ask where the kid is to take him to see them at nap time when they didn't take him out to begin with? If you aren't going to take the toddler exploring because it is his nap time, are you really going to come back to get him to see something so unimpressive? Also, why wouldn't the dad assume DeOrr was asleep in the tent since it was nap time instead of springing into camp yelling where is he? I've watched this part of the interview over and over again hoping it would make some sort of sense, but I just don't get the logic in any of it.

Edit: Not to say I don't believe the parents, I'm just curious about the entire nap time situation. Maybe nap time is more quiet/sit still and relax time for DeOrr and not necessarily sleeping?

 

[SuperTmo]

Excellent point. It is interesting to me how some dogs are fantastic smellers and others don't care at all. Every morning I can tell exactly which path a random rabbit or possum took through our yard because one of my dogs puts her nose on the ground and follows some scent in whatever meandering path the animal took and then cries at the edge of the fence. The other dog is way too lazy to care!

 

[SuperTmo]

And if it's nap time why would monkey and blanket be locked in the car?

Interesting question. Why would they be locked in the car at all if he had to have them at all times even if they were a hassle for him to carry and he was tripping over them. I think that is what the dad said.

 

[rkf]

You do know, don't you, that your pet's chip is not a GPS locator type deal. It only can identify them when scanned by a special machine if the pet is found.

The GPS ankle bracelets that ex-prisoners wear is a different thing. They are bulky and need to have batteries changed regularly. AFAIK the technology for implantable GPS locators does not exist yet.

Yes, it was a fantasy. However, it could be done. How do pacemaker batteries get recharged? Don't they sometimes last for up to 10 years?Could probably find a way to charge it through the skin. Something like Find My iPhone for people.

 

[SuperTmo]

Look into the Hereo GPS watches - I am planning to get my sons them once I let them have more freedom. They are 8 and 10 and it hasn't happened yet, lol.

Awesome! thanks! My girl is 7, so I *think* I've got about 20 more years before she really needs any sort of freedom, right? Maybe by then microchips will be GPS enabled and socially acceptable to use on people. =) Those watches are neat!

 

[gitana1]

See, that's just weird to me. Why go exploring without the child?

Because he's a toddler, can't walk as fast, needs to be held, tired because it's near nap time, they want alone time, don't want to carry him, he was cranky, etc. A bunch of reasons why parents might want a few minutes without their kid after a long drive.

 

[Dockins]

Yes, it was a fantasy. However, it could be done. How do pacemaker batteries get recharged? Don't they sometimes last for up to 10 years?Could probably find a way to charge it through the skin. Something like Find My iPhone for people.

Pacemakers are replaced, the batteries aren't recharged. I'm sure it's coming though.

 

[rkf]

Interesting question. Why would they be locked in the car at all if he had to have them at all times even if they were a hassle for him to carry and he was tripping over them. I think that is what the dad said.

That was my real point...

 

[starfire]

Another thing I've tried to understand is this: in their interview, the parents said that when they went exploring it was DeOrr's nap time, right? So how come they didn't wait for him to be asleep before they took off? Make sure he's safely asleep and tell the other adults in the camp that you'll be right back, the baby is sleeping, please keep an eye/ear out.

Then, if it was nap time why would the dad come rushing back to show the kid some minnows? They seem to be outdoorsy, its not like minnows are rare fish, so why ask where the kid is to take him to see them at nap time when they didn't take him out to begin with? If you aren't going to take the toddler exploring because it is his nap time, are you really going to come back to get him to see something so unimpressive? Also, why wouldn't the dad assume DeOrr was asleep in the tent since it was nap time instead of springing into camp yelling where is he? I've watched this part of the interview over and over again hoping it would make some sort of sense, but I just don't get the logic in any of it.

Edit: Not to say I don't believe the parents, I'm just curious about the entire nap time situation. Maybe nap time is more quiet/sit still and relax time for DeOrr and not necessarily sleeping?

I think that part may not be all that mysterious. I think maybe they simply meant that it was close to 2pm, which sounded like was Deorr's regular naptime -- and they were going to explore for a short while and come back and put Deorr down for his nap (which would probably include getting Deorr's blanket out of the truck). When people are on camping trips or vacations, they don't always follow their regular routine and a nap may be delayed if something comes up (or the naptime is approximate anyway). After exploring for a very short while, dad got excited about the minnows because he knew little Deorr would be excited to see them, so he went back to get him. Who knows how often little Deorr went camping or fishing in his young life so seeing minnows might be a huge thrill for him. When the parents got back to the campsite and didn't see Deorr with gramps, they asked where he was. I haven't read anything saying the dad came "springing" back to the campsite yelling.

<modsnip> I don't think that particular part of the story is all that outlandish.

 

[rkf]

Pacemakers are replaced, the batteries aren't recharged. I'm sure it's coming though.

A GPS chip could be way smaller and inserted just under the skin to make it easy to retrieve. Could be switched out at the annual physical under local anesthetic.

Geez! Sounds horrible, doesn't it? In the mean time, we can all put bright clothing on our kids when we go camping. My 15 year-old son was wearing a neon orange shirt at the airport the other day. Made it so easy to keep track of him as we went through separate security lines. I'm going to make him wear that shirt every time we travel from now on!

 

[Lizzzard]

He has blue pants on at least! Even if he took them off, they could still spot them pretty easily and at least have an idea of where he might have been heading.

Question: If I recall, they did use IR with the helicopter correct? If so, does anyone know if that was the first day? Were they searching in the 2.5 mile radius? Or did they travel outside of that range?

Yes, they used a helicopter out of Montana that is outfitted with the best of the best, as far as SAR air technology goes. They are amazing.

I'm not exactly sure which day(s) it was there except that I saw a photo of that particular helicopter posted on a news site on the 12th. I've looked and I can't seem to find it again. At any rate, it was in the early days because the dad mentions it in his interview. I have seen some news stories that made it sound like more than one helicopter was used but I don't know if that was accurate or an ad lib/mistake. If there was another one, I know nothing about it.

I'm not sure the area the helicopter(s) searched but its reasonable to assume (IMHO) that it searched farther out than 2.5 miles simply because it would probably be easy to do from the air. That's purely a guess on my part but 2.5 miles is nothing for a helicopter, even when you consider that it's actually 2.5 miles radiating in all directions (presumably) from a center point. Besides, I don't think they would fly all that way and just do the bare minimum. I don't mean that to sound snarky. It's just that the crew on that bird is serious about what they do!


Unfortunately, I fear that the scenarios that seem most likely to me would mean that DeOrr was deceased before responders were on scene and maybe even before the 911 call was placed, making the helicopter's heat-related technology less beneficial. I believe he is still in that area and that the parents are NOT involved (though I'm sure they are feeling plenty guilty). I think he is either in the water or buried. In both of those cases perhaps the drones will help with clearing the water or finding disturbed earth.

I fear we can only hope for an ending at this point but we may not like the outcome. It's cliche but I would not wish on my worst enemy what that family is going through. I have been thinking a lot about guilt lately regarding this case, especially how it likely haunts the innocent that are involved. Can you imagine those parents and how they are dying a million deaths inside everyday and likely berating themselves for going "exploring" regardless of what "exploring" even means? What about GGpa?? Can you imagine what that poor man is feeling? I assume he is a victim as well since LE has said they don't suspect the family, but this was supposedly his favorite campsite, and he was apparently supposed to be watching little DeOrr, and there has been such silence in regards to his friend. I cannot begin to fathom the purgatory that man is in right now. I can't blame him for being quiet. I just hope he is getting support and people are checking on him often.

 

[rkf]

If it wasn't nap time and the parents wanted to share the great outdoors with him, why leave him to go exploring shortly after arriving? He obviously wasn't playing with Ggp, so that's one of the reasons I wanted to know exactly what Deorr was doing when last seen - playing with his hot rod on the ground, climbing inside the tent...?

I think that part may not be all that mysterious. I think maybe they simply meant that it was close to 2pm, which sounded like was Deorr's regular naptime -- and they were going to explore for a short while and come back and put Deorr down for his nap (which would probably include getting Deorr's blanket out of the truck). When people are on camping trips or vacations, they don't always follow their regular routine and a nap may be delayed if something comes up (or the naptime is approximate anyway). After exploring for a very short while, dad got excited about the minnows because he knew little Deorr would be excited to see them, so he went back to get him. Who knows how often little Deorr went camping or fishing in his young life so seeing minnows might be a huge thrill for him. When the parents got back to the campsite and didn't see Deorr with gramps, they asked where he was. I haven't read anything saying the dad came "springing" back to the campsite yelling.

<modsnip> I don't think that particular explanation is all that outlandish.

 

[redlandb]

If the family thinks it was an abduction, why not speak to the press? If they think he is still up there, get looking with all the relatives from Facebook.

I just see ZERO reason to be silent. I realize they have been through a lot, but a little more effort is doable, especially at this standstill.

 

[SuperTmo]

Because he's a toddler, can't walk as fast, needs to be held, tired because it's near nap time, they want alone time, don't want to carry him, he was cranky, etc. A bunch of reasons why parents might want a few minutes without their kid after a long drive.

Well, sure. Anyone who has ever been in the car w/ a young kid for 2+ hours can appreciate that but I guess the part that doesn't make sense to me is why anyone would leave a tired/cranky/whatever kid in that horribly unsafe location without making damn sure the child is being watched like a hawk. Wait until he's sleeping! Like you said earlier, what probably happened is they didn't specifically say to the grandpa watch him (paraphrasing), so grandpa didn't think much of it when the baby disappeared. Why would their need for a break to go do whatever it is they were doing be the priority?

Sure they may not follow a regular nap schedule or whatever, because camping, but their primary responsibility is to take care of the baby and not go exploring. They knew it was close to his nap time, and from what I understand they were gone for a good amount of time (I'll go look for my source for that, I read it somewhere but can't remember the exact amount of time). I can't see leaving my two year old with my great grandpa to deal with at/near nap time. Its just so odd to me. But then again, I was a very nervous mother (still am, I admit) and rarely let anyone watch my daughter at that age so maybe this isn't so odd to everyone else.

Edit: the mom said on the 911 call that the boy was missing an hour. If you subtract the 20 minutes they spent searching for him before they called 911, that means they were gone from camp for about 40 minutes. I personally think it is odd to leave a toddler for that long right before nap time, especially in a strange place.

I'm not trying to blame them, I'm sure they feel horrible about all of this. I just wish it made sense, and I wish things happened differently for DeOrr. How sad.

 

[persimmon]

That was my real point...

I think the comment by the parents was meant to say that at most times under normal circumstances, DeOrr had these items. However, a camping trip with ggp and parents is a really exciting event to a small child so it was an exception to the rule. I imagine Christmas morning, a birthday party, or Halloween might be additional times a child might temporarily forget their need for security items. Jmo