ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #30

[Lilibet]

This is a good discussion. It's helpful to bounce ideas off each other.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

JM shows to be not longer "married" on her FB but now will spent her life trying to bring little Deorr home ....

 

[desert-blue]

JM shows to be not longer "married" on her FB but now will spent her life trying to bring little Deorr home ....

That's great news. Hopefully it will start with a phone call to LE.

 

[gitana1]

BBM

To me, the changing stories alone are the reason I think there is a coverup, rather than a lion carrying off DeOrr. If it was a lion, or an eagle or even a harder-to-believe human abduction, their stories would be more consistent because they would have nothing to hide.

I can think of a scenario in which all four (or five including Jessica's mom) would agree to and stick to a coverup. If GGP impatiently smacked DeOrr too hard in irritation, causing him to hit his head fatally, I think Jessica would call her mom repeatedly for help. She wouldn't want to get GGP in trouble for an accident. None of them would. He is the only one of the group that all of them would be willing to protect. After hiding DeOrr's body and agreeing on their stories, they would then call 911 and claim DeOrr had disappeared. This would protect GGP from being arrested for manslaughter. Keep in mind they would be in a state of panic and fear and grief, not thinking clearly.

Jessica's mom arrived before LE and perhaps would make sure there was no evidence. No one would have any reason to tell the truth and get an old man in trouble. The others hadn't killed DeOrr, couldn't be charged with anything serious and would all be willing to protect GGP at all costs. But they would not be able to keep the details straight and polygraphs would be inconsistent.

Even though everyone is suspicious about the story and the public is against them, all they would have to do is stonewall and neither LE nor the PIs could prove anything. They would keep the secret for GGP. Perhaps when he dies it would be revealed, or not. I don't think any of them would have thought this through carefully or expected a little boy's disappearance in Idaho to blow up this big.

Just a theory FWIW. I'm sure there's some fact I've forgotten that blows holes in this scenario, but it's the only one that explains everyone's behavior to me.,,at this point.
JMO, MOO, etc.

I hear you. The changing stories are troubling but could be the result of many things. Trauma does things to memory. I would think losing your kid in the forest would be the most traumatic experience and added to that being questioned, vilified and suspected.

But in my experience guys like the GGP's friend, who has done time before, they aren't going to cover for anyone except maybe their own kids. I think he would've sang like a canary at the first sign of pressure. He has a few convictions, right? So not a bright guy. Easy to break. Wouldn't want to take the fall for that family and i guarantee LE threatened him during questioning that he would.

No. For me the coverup theory never made sense and my gut observing the parents is they're grieving and not guilty of more than not watching him close
enough.

This is one one of the few times I haven't sided quickly with LE. Typically I cigur they are only motivated to solve a case and have good reasons for labeling someone a suspect.

 

[desert-blue]

I hear you. The changing stories are troubling but could be the result of many things. Trauma does things to memory. I would think losing your kid in the forest would be the most traumatic experience and added to that being questioned, vilified and suspected.

But in my experience guys like the GGP's friend, who has done time before, they aren't going to cover for anyone except maybe their own kids. I think he would've sang like a canary at the first sign of pressure. He has a few convictions, right? So not a bright guy. Easy to break. Wouldn't want to take the fall for that family and i guarantee LE threatened him during questioning that he would.

No. For me the coverup theory never made sense and my gut observing the parents is they're grieving and not guilty of more than not watching him close
enough.

This is one one of the few times I haven't sided quickly with LE. Typically I cigur they are only motivated to solve a case and have good reasons for labeling someone a suspect.

I appreciate your thinking and I think it's great to keep the discussion going - we probably aren't going to come up with any ground-breaking ideas at this point (although you never know...) but at least it keeps baby DeOrr's case alive.

I don't know what to think about IR. I feel like he got caught up in something way bigger than he could have ever imagined. As far as singing like a canary, I don't think he has much information that would be super useful to LE to solve this case (and I think he would not be a reliable witness for the prosecution - he would get torn apart during cross examination). I don't think he knows what happened to DeOrr nor do I think he has any idea where he is. My gut tells me that what he has told LE in private is different than what he says in public, and that's why Sheriff Bowerman has his doubts about DeOrr being at the campground. Beyond that, I just don't feel like he knows anything. IF (and that's a big if) he has said he doesn't exactly recall seeing DeOrr at the campground, that would certainly help LE to name the parents as suspects, but it's certainly not enough to build an entire case.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I feel that a lot of evidence was lost at the beginning of this case and without those crucial pieces (and without a confession or a body), the prosecution probably feels it is better to wait for more evidence than to risk getting a not-guilty verdict.

I don't think DeOrr just wandered off into the woods and disappeared without a trace. There are way too many red flags for me to believe that the parents don't know what happened to their son.

Just my opinion.... and I hope that one day DeOrr will be found and that every single person that contributed to his disappearance and cover-up will be held responsible.

 

[neesaki]

This just won't do, it's unacceptable. Deorr needs to be found. :bump:

 

[haven71]

Just my opinion.... and I hope that one day DeOrr will be found and that every single person that contributed to his disappearance and cover-up will be held responsible.

Desert Blue, I often agree with your thinking on this case. Your last sentence is exactly how I feel as well.

 

[Lilibet]

OK folks, THIS is what you do when your child goes missing in the mountains....

Lori Engebretson says, “We spent two years on that mountain, every weekend, every day off on that mountain searching for him, and nothing, Never found anything so yes, I believe he was picked up.

I remember this case well as it happened in a neighboring county in 1998. It was a tragic end to a fun outing with his Dad and Grandpa.

http://www.kdrv.com/story/34442663/unsolved-derrick-engebretson

 

[Spartygirl]

I'm with you and have been for months, I think it could well be a cover up / protection of Grandpa except I think he might have reversed into DeOrr while drunk. I also think Jess was in control of What Happened Next and she persuaded Vernal to dispose of the body, this way he became complicit too. However, I do think maybe this all happened either on Thursday night while drunk or Friday morning while Isaac was sleeping it off, and while he has at least an inkling of what happened he didn't directly see anything. He too is protecting his mate Grandpa.

I tell you now, if I thought my child had wandered off or been taken by an animal I would've been up there every spare minute of my life, and I know I'd have dozens of people helping me search - friends, family, local SAR, total strangers. An animal doesn't know it has to cover up its kill, a human does. There would be bones, there would be wellies, there would be something.

If I thought my child had been abducted I'd want full national press coverage, a hefty reward, social media campaign, TV interviews, photos on milk cartons, the works.

Neither of those things happened. And that, your honour, is why I think this couple is guilty. Of exactly what, and to what extent, I'm not quite sure..... but somethin' ain't right

BBM-- the one common thing I keep reading is Grandpa "drunk" or had been drinking, but in the video posted earlier of IR questioning, he states that whiskey was purchased and taken to campsite by Grandpa, then states that Grandpa had a few, oh, but wait, he doesn't drink anymore. Hinky meter went off on that statement.

 

[neesaki]

BBM-- the one common thing I keep reading is Grandpa "drunk" or had been drinking, but in the video posted earlier of IR questioning, he states that whiskey was purchased and taken to campsite by Grandpa, then states that Grandpa had a few, oh, but wait, he doesn't drink anymore. Hinky meter went off on that statement.

Exactly, thanks for reminding me. THAT is it. Remember when Klein made the statement about the events going on with IR and GGP? The more I think about it, I think there's something to it. I wish I had time to go back and find the quote. But most of you here know what I'm talking about.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

BBM-- the one common thing I keep reading is Grandpa "drunk" or had been drinking, but in the video posted earlier of IR questioning, he states that whiskey was purchased and taken to campsite by Grandpa, then states that Grandpa had a few, oh, but wait, he doesn't drink anymore. Hinky meter went off on that statement.

It makes sense when GGP said: Little Deorr was staying with me I heard. Very drunken people would have to hear from others what they have done the hours before when they had their usually (?) blackout.

I don't understand at all why GGP seems worth to be protected by (at least) 3/4 adults to the price of being suspected of murder themselves. IF indeed he the GGP is protected.

 

[neesaki]

It makes sense when GGP said: Little Deorr was staying with me I heard. Very drunken people would have to hear from others what they have done the hours before when they had their usually (?) blackout.

I don't understand at all why GGP seems worth to be protected by (at least) 3/4 adults to the price of being suspected of murder themselves. IF indeed he the GGP is protected.

Seriously, nothing makes sense. Whoever is protecting who, well, WHY? At all costs and at the expense of this innocent child? It makes no sense to us, because those of us here would never do such a thing. What does that tell us all about the character of these people involved? It says it all, they are low lifes. JMO

 

[neesaki]

Just so no one forgets, First flier, top left. Deorr. At the Hot Springs, Arkansas Walmart. God Bless Walmart who helps find these children. :bump:

 

[neesaki]

It makes sense when GGP said: Little Deorr was staying with me I heard. Very drunken people would have to hear from others what they have done the hours before when they had their usually (?) blackout.I don't understand at all why GGP seems worth to be protected by (at least) 3/4 adults to the price of being suspected of murder themselves. IF indeed he the GGP is protected.

Good point. The "I heard" is a big red flag. Also why would parents leave their child with an elderly man on oxygen who was also drinking whiskey? Or maybe they were all drinking whiskey, and doing who knows what else on top of it. I don't think I can hold any one person accountable for what happened, Because I believe it was at least three out of four. But ultimately, the parents are the ones responsible for their child. JMO

 

[roadrunnermt]

Good point. The "I heard" is a big red flag. Also why would parents leave their child with an elderly man on oxygen who was also drinking whiskey? Or maybe they were all drinking whiskey, and doing who knows what else on top of it. I don't think I can hold any one person accountable for what happened, Because I believe it was at least three out of four. But ultimately, the parents are the ones responsible for their child. JMO

I see the I heard remark as Grandpa covering but softening his lie. I think he is referencing that he heard little Deorr was left with him because they stormed up a lie to blame his disappearance on grandpa, his memory, and his health but grandpa didn't really watch Deorr. So he heard or aka was asked to lie and say he was watching him.

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[desert-blue]

I see the I heard remark as Grandpa covering but softening his lie. I think he is referencing that he heard little Deorr was left with him because they stormed up a lie to blame his disappearance on grandpa, his memory, and his health but grandpa didn't really watch Deorr. So he heard or aka was asked to lie and say he was watching him.

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Exactly - I totally agree. What makes no sense to me is why is he continuing to cover for them? Why doesn't he just tell LE or Klein that it's all a sham? Why won't he tell them what he knows? If Bob and Isaac would both confirm to LE that DeOrr wasn't there (or that they didn't see him), wouldn't that be enough to charge the parents with something? Or at least call in a grand jury? Ugh. This case is so frustrating. :-(

 

[roadrunnermt]

Exactly - I totally agree. What makes no sense to me is why is he continuing to cover for them? Why doesn't he just tell LE or Klein that it's all a sham? Why won't he tell them what he knows? If Bob and Isaac would both confirm to LE that DeOrr wasn't there (or that they didn't see him), wouldn't that be enough to charge the parents with something? Or at least call in a grand jury? Ugh. This case is so frustrating. :-(

I'm guessing he may be scared or they threatened him not to tell.

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[redlandb]

I'm ready to get out the waterboard. I'm not usually into such tactics, but covering up the injury to a small child is incomprehensible.

 

[misty48]

Exactly - I totally agree. What makes no sense to me is why is he continuing to cover for them? Why doesn't he just tell LE or Klein that it's all a sham? Why won't he tell them what he knows? If Bob and Isaac would both confirm to LE that DeOrr wasn't there (or that they didn't see him), wouldn't that be enough to charge the parents with something? Or at least call in a grand jury? Ugh. This case is so frustrating. :-(

In order for them to say "hey, actually, we didn't see baby Deorr at all during the trip" they would have to explain why they were prepared to make up a story which included a child who was never there. It is one thing to cover up something which has been witnessed but quite another to incriminate yourself in a situation about which you have absolutely no knowledge.

 

[Lilibet]

In order for them to say "hey, actually, we didn't see baby Deorr at all during the trip" they would have to explain why they were prepared to make up a story which included a child who was never there. It is one thing to cover up something which has been witnessed but quite another to incriminate yourself in a situation about which you have absolutely no knowledge.

Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.

Sir Walter Scott (Marmion, 1808)