ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #30

[neesaki]

Have always speculated there could have been some sort of drug use going on on this camping trip. Could something like have happened to little Deorr?


http://www.drugfreeworld.org/real-life-stories/crystal-meth.html

“Welfare money was not enough to pay for our ‘meth’ habit and support our son, so we turned our rented home into a meth lab. We stored the toxic chemicals in our refrigerator, not knowing that the toxins would permeate (go into) the other food in the icebox.
“When I gave my three-year-old son some cheese to eat, I did not know that I was giving him poisoned food. I was too stoned on meth to notice it until twelve hours later, that my son was deathly ill. But then I was so stoned it took me two hours to figure out how to get him to the hospital five miles away. By the time I got to the emergency room my boy was pronounced dead of a lethal dose of ‘ammonia hydroxide,’ one of the chemicals used to make meth.” —Melanie

 

[deedee21]

i just watched part 2 of this. Hmm, now I'm not sure how I feel about the "we left him with grandpa" story. I have a lot of catching up to do on this thread. I am new here, but I cannot stop thinking about DeOrr and wanted to get on here to read.

youtube Deorr Kuntz and Jessica Mitchell body language analysis.

 

[deedee21]

I dont know many of the details. But after watching this video, i wonder if LE is over reaching? Is it possible theres another explanation? This sounds gruesome, but its possible a large eagle swept down and snatched Deorr? Again, I dont know the details about this case. At first I figured the parents were full of carp. Now Im not so sure.

 

[deedee21]

No, I have not ruled out grandpas friend.

 

[Lilibet]

I dont know many of the details. But after watching this video, i wonder if LE is over reaching? Is it possible theres another explanation? This sounds gruesome, but its possible a large eagle swept down and snatched Deorr? Again, I dont know the details about this case. At first I figured the parents were full of carp. Now Im not so sure.

If you're new to the case, you won't be aware that nonhuman "abduction" was discussed and discussed and re-discussed many threads ago...to the point that it led to arguments. Most of us have reached the conclusion that the parents would not have changed their stories several times if an abduction of any kind had taken place. There are other things they did and didn't do that, at the very least, indicate knowledge of what happened and/or where DeOrr is. Unless you go back and read thirty threads (don't worry, I'm not suggesting you do that!), I think you'll just have to take our word for it that just about every theory anyone can imagine has been discussed. And we are no closer to the truth than ever because the parents are protecting themselves and hiding something.

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

What ^^^^they said

 

[PowMom01]

Just my opinion...

I am not convinced that JM and VDK didn't know IR before this trip. IR would need to "confirm" that in order for the story to work.

The only animal(s) that had anything to do with Deorr's disappearance are the POIs

 

[Maggie_Mayz]

Just my opinion...

I am not convinced that JM and VDK didn't know IR before this trip. IR would need to "confirm" that in order for the story to work.

The only animal(s) that had anything to do with Deorr's disappearance are the POIs

Yeah I am not convinced they didt know each other either. There is no way in heck I would have gone on a camping trip with people I didnt know. Especially i they were not going to help me take care of my GGPA...why go? JMO

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[neesaki]

Yeah I am not convinced they didt know each other either. There is no way in heck I would have gone on a camping trip with people I didnt know. Especially i they were not going to help me take care of my GGPA...why go? JMO

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Not to mention, that JM helped take care of GGP, and IR was his good friend . Also, didn't IR live close to GGP? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Jmo

 

[neesaki]

Am I the only one that thinks IR's a little too smooth?

 

[gitana1]

I continue to think an animal could have been responsible. Despite "body language analyses" which mean little to a lawyer except for entertainment (I actually didn't see anything in their body language or demeanor that was specifically troubling), and changing stories, failed/inconclusive polygraphs, the opinion of the PI and Most importantly, the sheriff saying he was likely killed intentionally or accidentally and the parents are suspects.

There is no logic to the coverup scenario in this case, IMO. If it was just the parents up there alone then a coverup would make sense. Adding in grandpa and the random friend who both agree the kid was there one moment and gone the next, doesn't lend itself easily to a coverup for me. It gets too convoluted and unrealistic IMO.

There is no evidence these people were up there getting wasted or all like to murder children or whatever and I would point to the friend but there wasn't time for him to harm the child AND hide the body in such a way that he couldn't be found.

I do the think the sheriff is desperate to "solve" this high profile case and may have given in to the wild internet speculation. And that's a rare position for me to take. I almost always think the cops had it right. I just have a gut they might not here.

And lions have dragged off little kids through brush before, quickly,
without a sound and without a trace. So in that dense area it's possible to me.

I don't know for sure what happened to this poor baby. But my mind is open.

 

[Lilibet]

I continue to think an animal could have been responsible. Despite "body language analyses" which mean little to a lawyer except for entertainment (I actually didn't see anything in their body language or demeanor that was specifically troubling), and changing stories, failed/inconclusive polygraphs, the opinion of the PI and Most importantly, the sheriff saying he was likely killed intentionally or accidentally and the parents are suspects.

There is no logic to the coverup scenario in this case, IMO. If it was just the parents up there alone then a coverup would make sense. Adding in grandpa and the random friend who both agree the kid was there one moment and gone the next, doesn't lend itself easily to a coverup for me. It gets too convoluted and unrealistic IMO.

There is no evidence these people were up there getting wasted or all like to murder children or whatever and I would point to the friend but there wasn't time for him to harm the child AND hide the body in such a way that he couldn't be found.

I do the think the sheriff is desperate to "solve" this high profile case and may have given in to the wild internet speculation. And that's a rare position for me to take. I almost always think the cops had it right. I just have a gut they might not here.

And lions have dragged off little kids through brush before, quickly,
without a sound and without a trace. So in that dense area it's possible to me.

I don't know for sure what happened to this poor baby. But my mind is open.

BBM

To me, the changing stories alone are the reason I think there is a coverup, rather than a lion carrying off DeOrr. If it was a lion, or an eagle or even a harder-to-believe human abduction, their stories would be more consistent because they would have nothing to hide.

I can think of a scenario in which all four (or five including Jessica's mom) would agree to and stick to a coverup. If GGP impatiently smacked DeOrr too hard in irritation, causing him to hit his head fatally, I think Jessica would call her mom repeatedly for help. She wouldn't want to get GGP in trouble for an accident. None of them would. He is the only one of the group that all of them would be willing to protect. After hiding DeOrr's body and agreeing on their stories, they would then call 911 and claim DeOrr had disappeared. This would protect GGP from being arrested for manslaughter. Keep in mind they would be in a state of panic and fear and grief, not thinking clearly.

Jessica's mom arrived before LE and perhaps would make sure there was no evidence. No one would have any reason to tell the truth and get an old man in trouble. The others hadn't killed DeOrr, couldn't be charged with anything serious and would all be willing to protect GGP at all costs. But they would not be able to keep the details straight and polygraphs would be inconsistent.

Even though everyone is suspicious about the story and the public is against them, all they would have to do is stonewall and neither LE nor the PIs could prove anything. They would keep the secret for GGP. Perhaps when he dies it would be revealed, or not. I don't think any of them would have thought this through carefully or expected a little boy's disappearance in Idaho to blow up this big.

Just a theory FWIW. I'm sure there's some fact I've forgotten that blows holes in this scenario, but it's the only one that explains everyone's behavior to me.,,at this point.
JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[desert-blue]

Since we're discussing theories (and hopefully keeping DeOrr's case alive), here is my latest theory..... I also think 5 people are involved...

I think DeOrr died on Thursday during the day at home with Jessica. Vernal came back from Blackfoot to find the camping trip and cover-up all set up and ready to go. Vernal was convinced (perhaps with threats?) that if he went along with the plan, it would all work out in the end - they'd claim DeOrr wandered away, searching would ensue and when he wasn't found, everything would gradually blow over and the public would be saddened by the tragedy. They'd be free from each other, free from child rearing, free from child support, and free to continue to carry on with their lives freely and independently. I think Vernal was in charge of the disposing of the body (maybe using an abandoned mine shaft?) and he did so in the middle of the night Thursday (thus the need for more fuel). It's possible Vernal is the only one who truly knows where DeOrr's body is. Bob and Isaac were brought along to lend credibility to the story and act as "witnesses." I think both were likely drunk/hungover most of the time and I also think Bob has memory issues. I don't know why Isaac states he saw DeOrr but I'm not putting any stock in what he says. Bowerman has said he doesn't think DeOrr was camping at Timber Creek so he himself must have thrown out Isaac's claims (and he knows more than we do). Perhaps Isaac has told LE behind closed doors that DeOrr wasn't there but that does little to help find DeOrr's body, which is apparently what is needed for prosecution in this case. It's very frustrating. :-(

Anyway, consider it a work of fiction - it's only my opinion (which shifts as often as the wind in this case...)

 

[desert-blue]

BBM

To me, the changing stories alone are the reason I think there is a coverup, rather than a lion carrying off DeOrr. If it was a lion, or an eagle or even a harder-to-believe human abduction, their stories would be more consistent because they would have nothing to hide.

I can think of a scenario in which all four (or five including Jessica's mom) would agree to and stick to a coverup. If GGP impatiently smacked DeOrr too hard in irritation, causing him to hit his head fatally, I think Jessica would call her mom repeatedly for help. She wouldn't want to get GGP in trouble for an accident. None of them would. He is the only one of the group that all of them would be willing to protect. After hiding DeOrr's body and agreeing on their stories, they would then call 911 and claim DeOrr had disappeared. This would protect GGP from being arrested for manslaughter. Keep in mind they would be in a state of panic and fear and grief, not thinking clearly.

Jessica's mom arrived before LE and perhaps would make sure there was no evidence. No one would have any reason to tell the truth and get an old man in trouble. The others hadn't killed DeOrr, couldn't be charged with anything serious and would all be willing to protect GGP at all costs. But they would not be able to keep the details straight and polygraphs would be inconsistent.

Even though everyone is suspicious about the story and the public is against them, all they would have to do is stonewall and neither LE nor the PIs could prove anything. They would keep the secret for GGP. Perhaps when he dies it would be revealed, or not. I don't think any of them would have thought this through carefully or expected a little boy's disappearance in Idaho to blow up this big.

Just a theory FWIW. I'm sure there's some fact I've forgotten that blows holes in this scenario, but it's the only one that explains everyone's behavior to me.,,at this point.
JMO, MOO, etc.

BBM: I agree with this 100%. I think they seriously miscalculated the public interest. If they'd been able to keep their stories straight and not fail their polys, the case might have blown over as they wanted. MOO.

 

[turtlefur]

My newest theory is that they have no idea what happened to DeOrr, and that they are innocent in that respect. However, their stories are changing because they were drinking/doing drugs and they don't want to come right out and say that.

I've been following this case since the first week or so, and have had many different theories. This is just my current one. I really don't think they murdered him, but could possible be guilty of negligence.


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[Lilibet]

Since we're discussing theories (and hopefully keeping DeOrr's case alive), here is my latest theory..... I also think 5 people are involved...

I think DeOrr died on Thursday during the day at home with Jessica. Vernal came back from Blackfoot to find the camping trip and cover-up all set up and ready to go. Vernal was convinced (perhaps with threats?) that if he went along with the plan, it would all work out in the end - they'd claim DeOrr wandered away, searching would ensue and when he wasn't found, everything would gradually blow over and the public would be saddened by the tragedy. They'd be free from each other, free from child rearing, free from child support, and free to continue to carry on with their lives freely and independently. I think Vernal was in charge of the disposing of the body (maybe using an abandoned mine shaft?) and he did so in the middle of the night Thursday (thus the need for more fuel). It's possible Vernal is the only one who truly knows where DeOrr's body is. Bob and Isaac were brought along to lend credibility to the story and act as "witnesses." I think both were likely drunk/hungover most of the time and I also think Bob has memory issues. I don't know why Isaac states he saw DeOrr but I'm not putting any stock in what he says. Bowerman has said he doesn't think DeOrr was camping at Timber Creek so he himself must have thrown out Isaac's claims (and he knows more than we do). Perhaps Isaac has told LE behind closed doors that DeOrr wasn't there but that does little to help find DeOrr's body, which is apparently what is needed for prosecution in this case. It's very frustrating. :-(

Anyway, consider it a work of fiction - it's only my opinion (which shifts as often as the wind in this case...)

BBM

I knew I'd forget something that would poke a hole in my theory! I'd forgotten that Bowerman doesn't think DeOrr was camping at Timber Creek. You're right that it's possible IR has revealed that DeOrr wasn't there.

I do think that the camping trip as cover up is a more elaborate scheme than I would give them credit for designing. There are a lot of loose ends to keep track of. It's also extremely risky for them to take the chance that GGP and IR could be counted on to say DeOrr was there. They actually described him doing things. I suppose power of suggestion/planted "memories" plus alcohol could guarantee their stories would indicate his presence. Vernal tried to use power of suggestion on the storekeeper later so that she would "remember" DeOrr in the store.

I'm still leaning toward an accident at camp as the simplest scenario, if only because I think everyone would cooperate to protect GGP and I think Jessica's repeated calls to her mother indicate panic. But in your scenario they could also indicate a need to finalize the cover up plans prior to calling 911. If the camping trip itself was a cover up, it's worked so far and you make very good points in its favor.

However it played out, hiding DeOrr's body so it couldn't be found was the smartest thing they did.

JMO subject to change.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

BBM

To me, the changing stories alone are the reason I think there is a coverup, rather than a lion carrying off DeOrr. If it was a lion, or an eagle or even a harder-to-believe human abduction, their stories would be more consistent because they would have nothing to hide.

I can think of a scenario in which all four (or five including Jessica's mom) would agree to and stick to a coverup. If GGP impatiently smacked DeOrr too hard in irritation, causing him to hit his head fatally, I think Jessica would call her mom repeatedly for help. She wouldn't want to get GGP in trouble for an accident. None of them would. He is the only one of the group that all of them would be willing to protect. After hiding DeOrr's body and agreeing on their stories, they would then call 911 and claim DeOrr had disappeared. This would protect GGP from being arrested for manslaughter. Keep in mind they would be in a state of panic and fear and grief, not thinking clearly.

Jessica's mom arrived before LE and perhaps would make sure there was no evidence. No one would have any reason to tell the truth and get an old man in trouble. The others hadn't killed DeOrr, couldn't be charged with anything serious and would all be willing to protect GGP at all costs. But they would not be able to keep the details straight and polygraphs would be inconsistent.

Even though everyone is suspicious about the story and the public is against them, all they would have to do is stonewall and neither LE nor the PIs could prove anything. They would keep the secret for GGP. Perhaps when he dies it would be revealed, or not. I don't think any of them would have thought this through carefully or expected a little boy's disappearance in Idaho to blow up this big.

Just a theory FWIW. I'm sure there's some fact I've forgotten that blows holes in this scenario, but it's the only one that explains everyone's behavior to me.,,at this point.
JMO, MOO, etc.

I'm with you and have been for months, I think it could well be a cover up / protection of Grandpa except I think he might have reversed into DeOrr while drunk. I also think Jess was in control of What Happened Next and she persuaded Vernal to dispose of the body, this way he became complicit too. However, I do think maybe this all happened either on Thursday night while drunk or Friday morning while Isaac was sleeping it off, and while he has at least an inkling of what happened he didn't directly see anything. He too is protecting his mate Grandpa.

I tell you now, if I thought my child had wandered off or been taken by an animal I would've been up there every spare minute of my life, and I know I'd have dozens of people helping me search - friends, family, local SAR, total strangers. An animal doesn't know it has to cover up its kill, a human does. There would be bones, there would be wellies, there would be something.

If I thought my child had been abducted I'd want full national press coverage, a hefty reward, social media campaign, TV interviews, photos on milk cartons, the works.

Neither of those things happened. And that, your honour, is why I think this couple is guilty. Of exactly what, and to what extent, I'm not quite sure..... but somethin' ain't right

 

[Sweetiemom]

Interesting new statement from Klein.,..https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

 

[desert-blue]

I think DeOrr had to have been deceased before the camping trip. Why did they buy three chargers en route to Leadore? Why were there no sightings of DeOrr whatsoever on Thursday? Why did they seem to have not packed an adequate number of clean diapers? And no toys?

Of course anything is possible, but I can't get behind a cover-up for Bob. Bob acts like he knows nothing and is almost defiant, like he is mad that he has been dragged into this whole mess. If he had harmed DeOrr and they were covering for him, wouldn't he be trying his best to make the story believable? To make it seem like an innocent mistake? Why would he say "that's what I'm told" when asked if he was watching DeOrr? That makes it sound like he's throwing Jessica and Vernal under the bus. Why would he do that to the people who are covering for him? If he had caused DeOrr's death, the least he could do is admit he may have taken his eyes off DeOrr for a few moments or that he thought DeOrr went with his parents. It's not like he would be charged with anything for that - the parents would be the ones that left their son with him.

Plus, it doesn't seem likely to me that Vernal would cover for Bob. I'm not even sure Jessica would. They both seem pretty narcissistic and I don't sense that Jessica and her grandfather were really all that close.

The only scenario to me that makes sense is that Jessica is responsible for DeOrr's death and Vernal and Bob were "coerced" into taking part in the cover-up. (Although, at the time, I'm not even sure that Bob knew what he was taking part in). I can see both of them covering for her, though, and being afraid of what would happen if they didn't go along with it. I think Vernal may even fear for his life. Keeping the secret and saying nothing is certainly working out well - it's buying them a lot of time and freedom, perhaps indefinitely. I think an arrest might get him talking but who knows. Remember also that Mr. Kunz Sr. is the one that hired Mr. Klein. I find that interesting as well.

All MOO and subject to change....

 

[neesaki]

The way GGP says "that's what I'm told", sounds like he isn't very sure of anything, and then the way he said that he knows JM but he doesn't "know her".... this to me could indicate he may suspect something but doesn't want to come out and say it without being certain. Jmo