ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #5

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http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...zales-9-San-Bernardino-Mountains-31-July-2004

I'm reading the thread that ILOKAL gave us, and this is amazing. Post #23:



Sounds familiar, huh? (My bold)

I hope it's okay that I brought that over.


Very. Here's a couple posts close under that one that also sound so familiar. They echo almost exactly what people are saying in this case:


Post #29:
I'm not sure why this case has me so frustrated :mad:! Something's not right here...I'm not surprised they've called off the search, but I hope LE is still investigating this...50 yards from the campsite to the truck. 9 yr old going to get cookies and never getting them or even unlocking the truck. Lots of food at the campsite (I'm assuming---reported that he was hungry for cookies at 8AM while breakfast already being prepared in campsite---why not just give child something that's right at hand to "hold him over?"). Crowded campgrounds, I've read--- and I think David's family was camping with another family---NO ONE saw or heard ANYTHING? David's mom says she saw a "beige truck" speeding away. No one else in crowded camp area saw the truck? If a truck was seen speeding away, and family's campsite was only 50 yards from their own truck, did no one hear a truck pulling up? Or any sounds of a struggle? Or voices? Or a door slamming? Nothing? Animal attack just 50 yards from campsite seems unlikely---and they don't think that this is what happened anyway---but if it WAS an animal, wouldn't there be some signs of a struggle? Some sounds? Even one yell? or some blood? Expert trackers are pretty good at determining if any animals have been close to a campsite, and I haven't heard that there's been a shred of evidence that it was an animal attack. Not one sign of the boy since he disappeared---none of the possible clues turned out to be anything. What about the reports that he was seen walking alone near the campgrounds later the same day he was reported missing? Why would he be? Has it been absolutely determined that he was at the campgrounds with the family to begin with? I know this may sound harsh and suspicious but the kid wasn't on a hike and got separated, no animals that close to campsite, no one else heard or saw any signs of trucks or abduction as far as I've read. He just had to walk 50 yards from a family campsite in a crowded campground.... :banghead:
BBM.

Post 34:
It's just killing me that they have stopped searching for this boy. What if he did get lost in the woods? I can't get the visual out of my head of this little boy wandering around alone and scared. If he was taken by someone how come no one else heard or saw the tan truck? Were the keys ever found? Something seems weird here. WHY would he wander into the woods without the cookies if wanted them so bad? It seems he never reached the family pickup to even get the cookies. So something happened in the 50 yards from the campsite to the pickup? And other people were in the campground too? I wonder if anyone else in the campground saw this boy at all? Something is just not right here but I don't know what it is. If that were my child though, I'd still be at the campground searching day and night until I dropped dead myself. No way would I ever go home thinking he's out there somewhere.
BBM.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...9-San-Bernardino-Mountains-31-July-2004/page2
 
Is it common that "Persons of Interest" have their house and vehicles searched?

It seems the investigation has turned somewhat, at least according to what LE was putting out there. Before the parents were supposedly not under suspicion, "good" with the sheriff, "solid", and so on. They may not be official suspects, but LE must have suspicion of something or they wouldn't be searching these places.
 
Hmm, maybe they should bring in some dogs trained in cougar hunting to search the area. They would have the opposite tendency and would follow any cougar scent tracks. Mind you, it might be too late at this point...

I wondered about this in the beginning. I can't remember if I mentioned it or not though.
 
Very. Here's a couple posts close under that one that also sound so familiar. They echo almost exactly what people are saying in this case:

Post #29:
Post 34:
BBM.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...9-San-Bernardino-Mountains-31-July-2004/page2

Oh and in case anyone wants to know what happened to the little boy who so suspiciously disappeared without a trace from a campground with his family, even though he desperately wanted cookies (thus would never have walked away, just like Deorr would never leave his blankie and sippy cup):

The location and condition of a child's skull and bones found near a Big Bear area campground where a 9-year-old boy disappeared last July indicate he may have been killed by a mountain lion, authorities said Tuesday.

San Bernardino County medical examiners are using dental records and DNA tests to determine if the remains that were found during the weekend by hikers and sheriff's deputies are those of David Gonzalez,who lived in Lake Elsinore and whose disappearance triggered a massive search-and-rescue effort last summer.

The bones were found about a mile southwest of the Hanna Flat campground, near Fawnskin, and showed no obvious trauma to the skull or signs of foul play, said San Bernardino County sheriff's spokesman Chip Patterson. The family had been camping at Hanna Flat on July 31.

Authorities believe a cougar may have attacked the boy in the woods and then dragged his body to an isolated area, which would explain David's sudden disappearance and why rescuers could not find him, Patterson said.
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"Explanations can be found in the lack of evidence," he said. "It was such a thorough search, and there were so many resources used, you wonder why we couldn't find him there. We searched that exact area.... Why couldn't he hear or see the people looking for him? Why couldn't we find him? This theory fits with what we don't know."
Much more at link: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1
 
Oh and in case anyone wants to know what happened to the little boy who so suspiciously disappeared without a trace from a campground with his family, even though he desperately wanted cookies (thus would never have walked away, just like Deorr would never leave his blankie and sippy cup):

Much more at link: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/01/local/me-bones1

Wow. He would have been a lot bigger than Deorr too.
 
This was the question I asked:



and this is what you said:



Thanks for clearing it up.


My response was to your misrepresentation of what I think. I never suggested the FBI was not officially involved.

Here is your entire posting that I responded to with BBM:

Originally Posted by bluesneakers View Post
So, you think they're working together but not officially involved. Interesting. I would think once they're called in - I mean in this case they're sending a team of investigators - that counts as "involved." At least that's how I would explain it, whether or not the Sheriff is still the lead.

Thanks.
 
Yeah. And the article states that mountain lions can drag their prey 1-3 miles away, like to take it to a secluded area, cover it with leaves and that their consumption of their prey can eliminate scents that search dogs can locate.

In that case, there was apparently, no scent of the child at all at the campsite that dogs alerted on. Nothing to track and nothing there. His body was found only about a mile away in the same park.

In this case, dogs kept circling back to the park.
 
My response was to your misrepresentation of what I think. I never suggested the FBI was not officially involved.

Here is your entire posting that I responded to with BBM:

That came after the first one I shared, but I think we can agree to disagree and let it go. :)
 
According to Reuters: "Bowerman said on Friday he has asked the FBI for assistance in a case that has stretched the resources of his small local law enforcement agency,"

I am not sure if anyone else saw this, but an office of an attorney was destroyed by a bomb last night in Idaho Falls. I don't know if it's even related but isn't that a small-ish city, is there a lot of crime? http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/witnesses-describe-hearing-feeling-i-f-bomb-explosion/
 
Here is the link that states Sheriff finally ASKED the FBI for help...they did not come in on their own.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Q52OP20150731?irpc=932

Quote Originally Posted by CatsInTheCradle View Post
BBM
Hi Gitana
What I see on here is perhaps a lack of confidence in the Sheriff's Department. Only speaking for myself here...we (my family) had three members who were LE. One was tragically killed in the line of duty. It was devastating to our family. Even with that upbringing/exposure, I still do not blindly believe in everything LE does and says. I have seen corruption, politics, secrecy, etc. too much in the last few years in the national news. So for me, I'm very very relieved that the FBI is being brought in, if nothing more than to assist a smaller office and offer more resources. Its like getting a second medical opinion. All JMO and I have wanted nothing more than for baby DeOrr to be found and truth/justice to prevail, whatever that might be. All JMO
Hi Cats. I don't blindly believe in what LE says either. I am a very logical person. I know quite a bit about human behavior. And LE missing person investigations. And what's typical and what's not. And how LE conduct and/or POI behaviors line up with the eventual outcomes of a case.

Show me something that evidences that LE in THIS case have had accusations of corruption or ineptitude - four different agencies involved in the investigation (3 sheriffs departments and one police department) and show me how protocols were flatly ignored in this case, and then I will listen to LE bashing. Otherwise it is just horrible bashing. And it is rude and uncalled for.

I have seen corruption in some cases. I have seen lying LE. I work with a criminal defense attorney. I see what goes on. Show me evidence of any of that here.

IMO, it is not right to say, "Well, because I know some cops are corrupt or inept, I will start there until they prove to me they're not."

Gitana...I hope you're not attributing this direct quote to me....I never stated that and to imply or assume anyone has is RUDE also...we are at a stalemate with differing opinions and that is how it will remain.
 
Hubby calls our almost 4 year old grandson "little man." For example, today the grandkids came for the weekend. As the guys headed out to visit the mini pony and donkey I hear my husband say, "come on Little man!" Term of endearment.

Ok, Again, I think I've got it, LOL. :wave:
 
Hi Cats. I don't blindly believe in what LE says either. I am a very logical person. I know quite a bit about human behavior. And LE missing person investigations. And what's typical and what's not. And how LE conduct and/or POI behaviors line up with the eventual outcomes of a case.

Show me something that evidences that LE in THIS case have had accusations of corruption or ineptitude - four different agencies involved in the investigation (3 sheriffs departments and one police department) and show me how protocols were flatly ignored in this case, and then I will listen to LE bashing. Otherwise it is just horrible bashing. And it is rude and uncalled for.

I have seen corruption in some cases. I have seen lying LE. I work with a criminal defense attorney. I see what goes on. Show me evidence of any of that here.

IMO, it is not right to say, "Well, because I know some cops are corrupt or inept, I will start there until they prove to me they're not."

All I can say is thank you for all of your wisdom and experience, Gitana, and for helping to keep us all a little more centered. :loveyou:
 
In 1932 or whenever it was initially passed, the Lindbergh act held that parents could NOT kidnap their own kids and the law, which outlaws interstate kidnapping, makes it a federal crime and thus allows for federal jurisdiction, could not apply to parents. At all.

Since then, the Lindbergh act can also apply to parents who kidnap and do not have lawful custody.

But unless the FBI has direct evidence that a child who has mysteriously disappeared has been taken by a parent with lawful custody, it can assume jurisdiction under the Lindbergh act.

Also, there needs to be zero evidence of an interstate abduction for the FBI to be involved. You cited that yourself earlier: "In 1932, Congress gave the FBI jurisdiction under the “Lindbergh Law” to immediately investigate any reported mysterious disappearance or kidnapping involving a child of “tender age”—usually 12 or younger. And just to be clear, before we get involved, there does not have to be a ransom demand and the child does not have to cross state lines or be missing for 24 hours." (The proximity to Montana is irrelevant to their involvement. That would be relevant if the missing person was an adult). https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/non-family-abductions


Actually, what I linked earlier is the FBI site that mentions the Missing Children Act of 1982. My opinion is that the FBI team should have been requested at the time DeOrr went missing, not 3 weeks later.

Both parents are accounted for in this case. It doesn't involve custody because both parents lived with the child and, afaik, they both have legal custody of the child.

It is only their child that is missing and apparently the FBI has just been asked to assist.

Idaho sheriff asks FBI for help in search for missing toddler

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/31/us-usa-idaho-toddler-idUSKCN0Q52OP20150731
 
Hello there! I have been reading these threads until tonight as a visitor. Curiosity is killing me about this kiddo. I live in the area, regularly camp all over southern Idaho, and my husband and I have been taking our kids on our adventures since they were born. This case hits close to home to say the least. I don't know the Kunz/Mitchell families directly, but I apparently have a ton of common "friends" on facebook, enough that for the past 3 weeks I can't even log on without seeing some emotionally charged rant. I won't go into any of the local speculation or gossip that is ABSOLUTELY RAMPANT, but I did want to share a couple of articles I think might help. The first is written by a friend of mine. She is a fish and game officer in the Pocatello area, which is a 45 minute drive S of Idaho Falls and about 2.5 hours S of Leadore. Pocatello is a fairly densely populated town of about 50,000 people, yet in town cougar sightings are roughly an annual occurrence.

http://xtremeidaho.com/living-with-mountain-lions-in-pocatello/

The second article is a recent sighting in the Wood River area, which is the Ketchum area (Hemingway kind of liked the place ;)).

http://www.mtexpress.com/news/envir...cle_14decaf6-9cf0-11e4-98f4-478e617c74dc.html

While neither of these articles definitively address what happened in this case, they point out that there are some ballsy cats in this neck of the woods.
 
According to Reuters: "Bowerman said on Friday he has asked the FBI for assistance in a case that has stretched the resources of his small local law enforcement agency,"

I am not sure if anyone else saw this, but an office of an attorney was destroyed by a bomb last night in Idaho Falls. I don't know if it's even related but isn't that a small-ish city, is there a lot of crime? http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/witnesses-describe-hearing-feeling-i-f-bomb-explosion/

No, the bombing is pretty out there as far normal crime. I haven't seen anything reported locally that would indicate it is related to the Kunz case. The investigating department would be the Idaho Falls city dept, Bonneville county sheriffs, as well as local FBI agents I imagine.
 
I posted in one of the previous threads that I never considered the store sighting to be from the night before because we had heard the family traveled there from Idaho Falls on Friday. But then I realized we haven't heard from or read a quote from the parents stating when they arrived.

I think we really need explore the possibility that they arrived Thursday night.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
 
Reading the old thread about the other little boy it sounds like the experts ruled out an animal attack. At least his remains were finally found:

Lion-attack theory abandoned

DISAPPEARANCE: Wildlife experts studying the boy's remains say scavenging animals made the marks.

11:20 PM PDT on Friday, June 3, 2005

SAN BERNARDINO - A forensic examination of a 9-year-old boy's skeletal remains showed no evidence that a mountain lion or other wild animal killed the youngster, three California Department of Fish and Game experts said Friday.
"I didn't see anything that implicated a mountain lion," said Douglas Updike, the same expert who had raised the notion of a lion attack at a Thursday news conference about the remains of David Gonzalez.

Updike said he changed his mind after observing Friday's detailed medical examination of the remains, which was performed at the San Bernardino County coroner's office. Two other Fish and Game Department forensic experts said they noticed evidence of animal scavenging that occurred after the boy's death but no signs that animals caused the death.

<modsnip>

If the boy was not killed by a mountain lion or other animal, at least the two other likely possibilities that sheriff's officials have mentioned and investigated remain: an abduction-homicide, or young David became lost and died of exposure or injury even as an army of searchers looked for him.

<modsnip>

A lion attack was suspected because a mountain lion was seen in the area about the time the boy disappeared.

"Hounds were able to track lion scent through the camp ... and there could have been anywhere from two to five (lions) in a region like that," Updike said.

But after viewing the skeletal remains, Updike said he was ready to abandon the theory.



<modsnip>

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_cats04.581e4.html
 
Is it within the rules to post a direct quote on a public page that addresses this question? The page itself is already being currently discussed...
Are you referring to the news fb page I referenced a few posts back? If so, no you cannot post a direct quote from the comments of a news article or Facebook. I have asked mod if we can discuss what's there - waiting for reply.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
 
Is it within the rules to post a direct quote on a public page that addresses this question? The page itself is already being currently discussed...

First of all, WELCOME, Beezneez, it's good to have you here and thanks for joining. :)

Second, if you're talking about the FB page that Jules mentioned, I wouldn't post any comments from there because I believe it's against TOS.
 
Are you referring to the news fb page I referenced a few posts back? If so, no you cannot post a direct quote from the comments of a news article or Facebook. I have asked mod if we can discuss what's there - waiting for reply.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Thanks!
 
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