ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #6

[dtsnyder]

I'm curious if there has ever been any explanation from the family why they chose that location for camping? I'm not trying to imply anything negative, just wondering why they would drive 120 miles to such a rustic and remote campsite? Perhaps I'm posh, but my family and I prefer state parks where we can enjoy washrooms, a playground, and Junior Ranger programs. The remote campsite seems like an odd choice to me to bring a 2 year old and an elderly man (who may be somewhat physically and or mentally limited). I could understand if it were just a couple of young men on a hunting trip, but a family? Were they just stopped there overnight as they were travelling elsewhere? Did they plan to hunt in the area? Do they have ties to the area?

It really is not odd at all. If it were, idaho wouldn't have dispersed/primitive camping. I would guess that many people in that area are like my family - when we go camping we want privacy. We have camped in areas just like that (even without water) with very young kids. We camp with kids as young as 4 months old.

This campsite really isn't very remote. Yes, it is off the beaten path but not remoye. They could get water at the nearby campsite if they ran out.

On our recent trip we drove 7 hours (and family from Utah drove further than that) to salmon,id to camp. Once in salmon it took us 90 min to drive 25 miles to the campsite (on all dirt roads). We hoped to camp in a certain light use campground with water, but were willing to go to plan b and do dispersed camping with or without water and even without designated fire pits and toilets. We had 11 people camping with us. We just wanted to get away from civilization.

 

[SweetT]

I almost always go with primitive too...for the privacy and I have grandchildren who go with us..so three generations. I like my RV though, Im not going to tent camp it. I have a generator and we bring water in if needed. I love Montana and have a special SECRET sweet place here that we go to... I am going to go to Idaho sometime and even thought of going to this Timber creek campground but it is not my style. I have to have trees..this is way to open for me and Im not at all into atv's while I camp I like quiet. Since I only get so many times a yr to go I probably will not get to Timber creek this summer. I have my bucket list for this summer in Montana.

 

[dtsnyder]

I almost always go with primitive too...for the privacy and I have grandchildren who go with us..so three generations. I like my RV though, Im not going to tent camp it. I have a generator and we bring water in if needed. I love Montana and have a special SECRET sweet place here that we go to... I am going to go to Idaho sometime and even thought of going to this Timber creek campground but it is not my style. I have to have trees..this is way to open for me and Im not at all into atv's while I camp I like quiet. Since I only get so many times a yr to go I probably will not get to Timber creek this summer. I have my bucket list for this summer in Montana.

We also had 3 generations on this trip. If your trailer isn't too big (the road is a bit steep, but decently maintained) check out Wallace Lake outside of Salmon. It was awesome (and no atvs). I live in MT and also have our sweet spots.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I'm curious if there has ever been any explanation from the family why they chose that location for camping? I'm not trying to imply anything negative, just wondering why they would drive 120 miles to such a rustic and remote campsite? Perhaps I'm posh, but my family and I prefer state parks where we can enjoy washrooms, a playground, and Junior Ranger programs. The remote campsite seems like an odd choice to me to bring a 2 year old and an elderly man (who may be somewhat physically and or mentally limited). I could understand if it were just a couple of young men on a hunting trip, but a family? Were they just stopped there overnight as they were travelling elsewhere? Did they plan to hunt in the area? Do they have ties to the area?

When we go camping, we pass up several camping grounds and drive quite a distance. We want to avoid party spots, heavily trafficked areas, places without quiet hours, etc. We want to go somewhere where we can enjoy a quiet, peaceful experience outdoors, and we would prefer to do that without feeling crowded by a hundred other campers. If that campground in Idaho had bathrooms with running water OR a camper hookup, I'd be there in a heartbeat. It looks utterly lovely as a spot to camp. Even without those amenities, it'd be a nice place to stay for a day or two before packing on to somewhere with the things we wanted to settle in for a nice long camping vacation.

 

[rkf]

A POI is either someone who might have knowledge of what occurred, or it can mean a suspect. As for now as far as I know they haven't been declared suspects.

Isn't a witness someone who might have knowledge of what occurred? I don't understand why LE used POI when they could have used "witness". In my mind, POI is closer to "suspect" than "witness", or at least something in-between. I wouldn't want to be called a POI if my child disappeared. I would feel like LE was looking at me with at least some suspicion.

 

[savagewoman]

CanSleuth - the news headlines stated "Fishing Trip".

Also in the parent interview, the Dad said something about going up top by the reservoir and not knowing that it was there.
My thoughts - Seemed like they haven't explored that area yet and/or knew that there were other campers up top.

 

[rkf]

I think it depends on when he woke up as to whether he'd come out crying or not. When my husband was a FF, they'd have demonstrations at local schools because children can and did hide from firefighters in fires -- a kitted-out firefighter is kind of scary-looking to little ones. I can see him waking up to all kinds of chaos, the chaos associated with a search, with strangers calling his name. He might have been disoriented as it was from sleeping out in the open, and then to wake up to LE calling him -- that could be really scary to a little guy, especially if his parents didn't seem to be around. I can see a two-year-old either hunkering down and hiding or darting off even further into the grasses. You'd think someone would have seen him, but with that camo ...

I keep thinking if DeOrr was wandering around or even hiding that the dogs would have found him. I understand dogs are only as good as their training and handlers, but I have no reason to think these dogs weren't up to the job of finding a child who toddled off. If he was lost, walking in circles, originating at the campsite, I don't see how a dog wouldn't have caught at least some scent at some point. I think it would be harder days later, but if it was impossible, I don't believe the dog teams would have even tried. Also, if he was lost and died (without being completely consumed by a wild animal) I would think cadaver dogs would have found him. At the very least, I would expect scavenger birds to circle the area of his body. IMO, unless he is caught under water, neither he nor his body is within 2 1/2 miles of the campsite. I mountain lion may have carried him beyond the initial search area. Hopefully the new 10 mile radius search will provide some clues, or eliminate some possibilities. I don't think the hundreds of volunteers having been there would interfere with a cadaver dog finding a body.

 

[bluesneakers]

It really is not odd at all. If it were, idaho wouldn't have dispersed/primitive camping. I would guess that many people in that area are like my family - when we go camping we want privacy. We have camped in areas just like that (even without water) with very young kids. We camp with kids as young as 4 months old.

This campsite really isn't very remote. Yes, it is off the beaten path but not remoye. They could get water at the nearby campsite if they ran out.

On our recent trip we drove 7 hours (and family from Utah drove further than that) to salmon,id to camp. Once in salmon it took us 90 min to drive 25 miles to the campsite (on all dirt roads). We hoped to camp in a certain light use campground with water, but were willing to go to plan b and do dispersed camping with or without water and even without designated fire pits and toilets. We had 11 people camping with us. We just wanted to get away from civilization.

I don't find it odd either. Part of the thrill for me (and my family) is finding new remote places too. They were all unfamiliar once, right?

My family is multi-generational campers too. Maybe it's a PacNW thing? My niece had her own raft and sleeping bag by the time she was three.

 

[Niner]

courtesy of Niner's hardwork --- on the media/timeline forum for deorr http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot

PLUS:

Friday, July 31st - Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says he's convinced an Idaho toddler missing for three weeks was not abducted. . . Bowerman said he's unable to rule out the possibility. The sheriff also said on Friday that the FBI is sending a team of investigators to assist the Lemhi County Sheriff's office who will be checking the sheriff's office interviews and may re-interview some people to make sure deputies didn't miss anything. (Source: http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/DeOrr-Kunz-Missing-Idaho-320303121.html) DeOrr’s parents confirm they have been in contact with the FBI and, according to Kunz, investigators have searched their house and vehicles. But no date listed for this search (Source: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/parents-of-deorr-kunz-we-pray-our-lil-man-will-be-found/)

Sunday, August 2nd - SALMON, Idaho -- The FBI is now involved in the search for a missing eastern Idaho toddler, according to the boy's grandfather. . . DeOrr Kunz, who shares a name with his missing grandson, tells KTVB that FBI agents have been in contact with family members and are now helping investigators search for the two-year-old. . . Sunday, family and friends were back searching near the campsite where the toddler went missing on July 10. (source: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...olved-in-search-for-missing-toddler/31038001/)


*****
I haven't updated the Timeline with these two additional days, as I haven't seen any "new" information from the Sheriff or FBI.... still :waiting:

 

[rkf]

Thanks Claire. So that's where the five sites come from! I thought they camped at the lower campground with only one other site. I don't think that other site was occupied or do we know otherwise? Many have said they believe someone would have seen/heard something. I don't understand, given the remoteness and distance between sites, why they believe that.

I have seen people say they think one of the 4 adults with DeOrr would have heard something - not necessarily campers from the other sites. IIRC, DK and JM said they never saw any other campers. JMO

 

[rkf]

Probably the same reason you spend your morning looking everywhere for your keys only to find them sitting right out on the dining room table where you dropped them the night before.

If I had a key-sniffing dog, I would expect him to be able to find my keys a lot faster than I can alone with my addled brain!

 

[rkf]

The Salmon-Challis Forest has designated units for hunting. Various outfitters are authorized to conduct their hunts in certain units.

Not only am I not a camper, I'm not a hunter. Was any animal "in season" when the family was camping? (Another reason to dress in bright clothes!) Would hunters be in the area?

 

[white rabbit]

I didn't look that closely, rkf, but iirc, the Idaho fish & game website only listed bear hunting as 'in season' mid-july. most of the big game hunts occur in September/October. but I could be wrong.

DKS specifically said 'fishing'. wondering if hunting was on the table and they didn't want to admit they had guns at the campsite. of course LE would know this by now (having searched their vehicles & home). probably not but it's another rabbit hole to go down if anyone cares to do so...

i'm rabbit-hole-d-out. :banghead:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/scnf/recreation/hunting
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/unit.aspx?ID=38

Unit 29

Region 7Salmon RegionLemhi Elk ZoneUnits 29, 37, 37A, 51
Game Management Unit Boundary
That portion of LEMHI COUNTY within the Lemhi River drainage south and west of State Highway 28 and that portion of the Salmon River drainage east of the Salmon River from the Salmon River bridge in the City of Salmon upstream to and including the Poison Creek drainage.

 

[pappa rob]

I'm curious if there has ever been any explanation from the family why they chose that location for camping? I'm not trying to imply anything negative, just wondering why they would drive 120 miles to such a rustic and remote campsite? Perhaps I'm posh, but my family and I prefer state parks where we can enjoy washrooms, a playground, and Junior Ranger programs. The remote campsite seems like an odd choice to me to bring a 2 year old and an elderly man (who may be somewhat physically and or mentally limited). I could understand if it were just a couple of young men on a hunting trip, but a family? Were they just stopped there overnight as they were travelling elsewhere? Did they plan to hunt in the area? Do they have ties to the area?

Some people like to camp rough. I only do a State Park when I have to. It may be nice to have all the other stuff but some people like to get away from all that.

 

[lauriej]

Some people like to camp rough. I only do a State Park when I have to. It may be nice to have all the other stuff but some people like to get away from all that.

-when we used to camp, we'd rough it , but, if I was taking Grandpa, in "declining physical and mental health" (according to the Sheriff) I certainly wouldn't choose a spot out in the middle of nowhere, in the event that something happened to him and I needed medical assistance immediately.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

-when we used to camp, we'd rough it , but, if I was taking Grandpa, in "declining physical and mental health" (according to the Sheriff) I certainly wouldn't choose a spot out in the middle of nowhere, in the event that something happened to him and I needed medical assistance immediately.

Maybe makes more sense that this was a last camping+fishing trip by GGP and friend and the family tagged along?

Can't remember if the camping trip arrangements are known other than it was planned a week before?

 

[ClaireNC]

Not only am I not a camper, I'm not a hunter. Was any animal "in season" when the family was camping? (Another reason to dress in bright clothes!) Would hunters be in the area?

No, it doesn't look like any of the big game animals were in season during that time. Idaho's hunting laws are pretty complex with the state broken down to units and each unit has it's own times when and what they can hunt. It looks like hunting season for some animals opens Aug 30. http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/rules/ In general, in most places you don't hunt in late spring and summer, when the parasite load in the animals is at it's highest.

ETA: It looks like the campground is in Unit 29.

 

[ClaireNC]

-when we used to camp, we'd rough it , but, if I was taking Grandpa, in "declining physical and mental health" (according to the Sheriff) I certainly wouldn't choose a spot out in the middle of nowhere, in the event that something happened to him and I needed medical assistance immediately.

In the vastness of Idaho, this site isn't actually all that remote. If it was a place that GGP liked and he had a camper to be comfortable in, I see no reason to not take him camping. My father is nearing 90 and his health is failing. We take him wherever he wants to go, within reason. (He'd still be climbing mountains if we let him.) I don't get the impression that the things that are wrong with GGP warrant the need to stay near a hospital.

 

[pepelepolecat]

If I had a key-sniffing dog, I would expect him to be able to find my keys a lot faster than I can alone with my addled brain!

bbm -- someone needs to get on this asap. Can you imagine how popular key-sniffing dogs would be?

 

[BeeFriendly]

Just another random thought that may have already been covered here. New York Times article released June 28th...
states that prison escapees David Sweat and Richard Matt used pepper to throw off the dogs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/nyregion/second-new-york-prison-escapee-shot.html?_r=0

"It was not clear whether the men remained together the whole time, but they appeared to have been together recently enough that a discarded pepper shaker bearing Mr. Sweat’s DNA was found by investigators over the weekend near the spot where Mr. Matt was killed on Friday.
Mr. D’Amico, of the State Police, said the men possibly used the pepper to throw off the scent of the search dogs, a ruse employed in the 1967 film “Cool Hand Luke.”
“We did have difficulty tracking, so it was fairly effective in that respect,” he said."

Another press release from NewYork Post with details.
http://nypost.com/2015/07/22/shaw-*...cts-put-pepper-in-boots-to-evade-search-dogs/
Details provided by State Police Maj. Charles Guess to the Press-Republican of Plattsburgh show that David Sweat and Richard Matt went out of their way to confound searchers after their June 6 escape from Clinton Correctional Facility, near the Canadian border. After a panicky moment when their getaway ride failed to show, the two convicted murderers walked west from the prison toward deep woods.
Sweat carried pepper to throw off tracking dogs in the guitar case he packed with food and other provisions squirreled away while in prison.
“They put it in their boots, and whenever they made a significant change in direction or had holed up for a while, they used pepper liberally to throw off the dogs,” Guess told the newspaper.