ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #8

[babyback]

In this clip dad says that they weren't more than 50 yards away, and maybe took them 10 min.
[video=youtube;h8RrEX5Kknc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8RrEX5Kknc[/video]

 

[rkf]

I wonder if that will change when the FBI completes its analysis of the collected evidence.

I hope the FBI is able to glean something from the information the sheriff has collected. I feel like the local LE did everything they possibly could to find DeOrr, called in SAR right away, used all the technology available to them. I think their efforts were impeded by the large number of untrained volunteer searchers who arrived to help, which led to contamination of the scene and a not particularly organized early search. I also think the fact that they didn't immediately treat the campsite as a "crime scene" means they may have lost evidence and obviously the lack of control allowed the cremains to be dumped at a particularly inopportune time. Having fresh eyes, especially those of people who have experience in missing persons cases, could provide new avenues to investigate. But as for the search, I can't imagine (other than restricting the search to qualified volunteers who would follow protocol), I can't imagine the FBI or anyone else could have done better. I think if he was in the search area, they would have found him. I do think it's odd that the NCMEC person came to help, but we really never heard anything about his/her participation/advice. They did create a poster with inaccurate information, which they have not changed after at least a few people contacted the center (including me.) How may more weeks do we have to wait? At least 5?

 

[kammiemc]

Dad said everything, imo. Mom barely spoke.. but she spoke loud and clear in the 911 call.. she said baby was missing for an hour.. In other words when they came back, realized baby wasnt there and then searched it was an hour. Time elapsed from the time deorr was seen last until 911 was called was one hour. Since grandpa didnt even KNOW he was supposed to be watching the baby ..how would he know the last time he saw him.. he thought baby went with parents. 1 hour since MOM saw Deorr.. 1 hour missing per MOM..

Several days later in interview it was changed to 10 minutes.. 1 hour..baby missing one hour.. 911 call to me is like jumping out of your car after an accident and saying oops i didnt see you.. just what the insurance company doesnt want you to say.. but it is a normal reaction... mom was acting normally and truthfully.. 1 hour.. JMO The ? is .. why was that changed in the interview?? JMO

Yeah, four minutes doesn't make any sense. To determine that exact gap in DeOrr's supervision would require that ggp or IR could state the exact minute he/they last saw DeOrr (which would have to be exactly four minutes before parents' return?)

If the parents alerted ggp they were leaving and he was in charge of DeOrr, then why would ggp have assumed that DeOrr was with them if he saw DeOrr without them several minutes later?

Did the parents even tell ggp or IR that they were going exploring without DeOrr? I would hope so, given the steep embankment leading to down to a creek nearby. And also because little kids love to follow and they had to know he might try to unless someone was supervising.

Did they just leave quietly and let ggp assume DeOrr was them in the tent or something? And when they showed back up, ggp was surprised that they had been gone? Or, did they take DeOrr with them, wherever they went and just let ggp be as befuddled as heck by the whole thing? Convince him of things he didn't know.

Four minutes doesn't track. 10 minutes doesn't track. An hour doesn't track. Pretty much nothing tracks. I do not want to jump to the conclusion that the parents are involved in their son's disappearance, but something is really off in the discrepancies leading up to his disappearance and even how 911 was called.

And, unfortunately, the interview made it worse.

The dad filled up the time of the interview with details that were irrelevant in terms of what could help the public find DeOrr (and even irrelevant to helping calm the suspicions of the parents' involvement that are rampant on SM).

Instead, he talked about random details so adamantly, it was almost as if he was building some kind of argument on these details that had never been contested. He focused on the technology and the precision of the searchers, how his boss had been helping...it was almost as if he felt guilty for the help and anxious for it to be over, IMO. (Like, make it stop!) The only moments of the interview that seemed sincere to me were when he broke down and cried. And that could be because he thinks his son is somewhere with his abductor, or because he knows where his son is.

 

[babyback]

Yeah, four minutes doesn't make any sense. To determine that exact gap in DeOrr's supervision would require that ggp or IR could state the exact minute he/they last saw DeOrr (which would have to be exactly four minutes before parents' return?)

If the parents alerted ggp they were leaving and he was in charge of DeOrr, then why would ggp have assumed that DeOrr was with them if he saw DeOrr without them several minutes later?

Did the parents even tell ggp or IR that they were going exploring without DeOrr? I would hope so, given the steep embankment leading to down to a creek nearby. And also because little kids love to follow and they had to know he might try to unless someone was supervising.

Did they just leave quietly and let ggp assume DeOrr was them in the tent or something? And when they showed back up, ggp was surprised that they had been gone? Or, did they take DeOrr with them, wherever they went and just let ggp be as befuddled as heck by the whole thing? Convince him of things he didn't know.

Four minutes doesn't track. An hour doesn't track. Pretty much nothing tracks. I do not want to jump to the conclusion that the parents are involved in their son's disappearance, but something is really off in the discrepancies leading up to his disappearance and even how 911 was called.

And, unfortunately, the interview made it worse.

The dad filled up the time of the interview with details that were irrelevant in terms of what could help the public find DeOrr (and even irrelevant to helping calm the suspicions of the parents' involvement that are rampant on SM).

Instead, he talked about random details so adamantly, it was almost as if he was building some kind of argument on these details that had never been contested. He focused on the technology and the precision of the searchers, how his boss had been helping...it was almost as if he felt guilty for the help and anxious for it to be over, IMO. (Like, make it stop!) The only moments of the interview that seemed sincere to me were when he broke down and cried. And that could be because he thinks his son is somewhere with his abductor, or because he knows where his son is.

Actually, I don't feel that those parents have a clue where the child is. The way I saw the father talking about the searching, and all the effort that has been put into the searching, he's just overwhelmed by the entire thing. JMHO

 

[kammiemc]

I hope the FBI is able to glean something from the information the sheriff has collected. I feel like the local LE did everything they possibly could to find DeOrr, called in SAR right away, used all the technology available to them. I think their efforts were impeded by the large number of untrained volunteer searchers who arrived to help, which led to contamination of the scene and a not particularly organized early search. I also think the fact that they didn't immediately treat the campsite as a "crime scene" means they may have lost evidence and obviously the lack of control allowed the cremains to be dumped at a particularly inopportune time. Having fresh eyes, especially those of people who have experience in missing persons cases, could provide new avenues to investigate. But as for the search, I can't imagine (other than restricting the search to qualified volunteers who would follow protocol), I can't imagine the FBI or anyone else could have done better. I think if he was in the search area, they would have found him. I do think it's odd that the NCMEC person came to help, but we really never heard anything about his/her participation/advice. They did create a poster with inaccurate information, which they have not changed after at least a few people contacted the center (including me.) How may more weeks do we have to wait? At least 5?

There's something else I would add. IF it's true that there was some familiarity between anyone in LE and the family, there could have been preconceptions that might have led LE to rule out certain avenues at first.

This is human nature! My neighbor is a doctor. In an emergency I walked to her house (she's just two doors down) and she got me into an ambulance. Later, I told her that I thought it could have to do with a prescription painkiller I had taken too much of post surgery. She said, because I'm a good friend, she hadn't even gone through the normal questioning--what drugs are you on, etc., because she assumed she would have known. (And also probably thought that I would be too smart to take too much!) And she said that's exactly why it's protocol for doctors not to treat friends and family. I imagine the same could be said for any kind of investigating.

 

[bessie]

It displays a certain confidence to hand over everything has they have. It could also leave egg on their face.....

Will the FBI findings be made public do you think?

That's hard to say. Too many variables. It would depend on what they find, if anything, and whatever else might develop in the meantime. I think we'll hear something, just not sure how much will be revealed. Don't be surprised if it takes longer than six weeks, though.

 

[kammiemc]

I can't wrap my mind around how lucky a perp would have to be. What are the chances of finding a toddler, unattended for at least ten minutes, in the wilderness? It's one thing to turn your head to put a dress back on the rack at a mall store, to have your child slip out of sight. 1. There are a lot more people around, raising the chance that a child out of site for 10 seconds could cross paths with a pedophile. 2. It's a split second distraction - not ten, twenty or 60 minutes. Even if a perp knew DeOrr was at the camp ground, why would he think he would have the chance to snatch him? I can't speak for others, and as I said, I'm not a camper (but have always hiked, even with kids). I would never feel comfortable enough to leave my two year-old playing in my own fenced yard, much less a campsite bordered by a fast-moving creek, without making sure he had a competent and responsible adult watching him. If ggp is truly on oxygen 24 hours/day, I find it hard to believe his parents would leave their toddler next to the fire with ggp's oxygen tank nearby. IIRC, JM is a home health care aide, so she would know the danger of mixing heat and pure oxygen. That story doesn't make sense. JMO

Has it ever been said the campfire was actually afire? I saw on one map that there was a fire pit structure. Could it have been misspeaking to call it a campfire? Otherwise, that's going into pretty terrible territory that a nurse would feel comfortable leaving an elderly man with oxygen at a fire, double that wonkiness to leave him by the fire in charge of her son.

 

[kammiemc]

Actually, I don't feel that those parents have a clue where the child is. The way I saw the father talking about the searching, and all the effort that has been put into the searching, he's just overwhelmed by the entire thing. JMHO

I am really glad that you saw it that way. I genuinely hope my impression is 100% wrong.

 

[KYPastTracker]

One of the most astounding things about this case is the cremains dumping IMO. The odds that anyone would dump cremains in such a remote, hard to get to, seldom used site at just the exact time that a missing person search is in progress must be astronomical! I just really find that harder to believe than Big Foot! Truth really is stranger than fiction! JMO

 

[dtsnyder]

I kind of believe the timeline of DK (I think?) who said it was around 2pm and they left for ten minutes and then searched for 20 minutes. That would line up with the first 911 call.

Could it be that the 911 operator put words into JM's mouth when she said/suggested/clarified the 1 hour missing timeframe? JM seemed flustered (and was hard to understand) when the timeframe was discussed with 911. Perhaps she agreed to the 1 hour time to either instill a greater sense of urgency with the operator or just to get the conversation over with so help could arrive. I mean there wouldn't seem like any reason to argue with a time (especially since 1 hour sounds better/more urgent than less than an hour).

Although I am still not convinced of him "just disappearing"

 

[bluesneakers]

One of the most astounding things about this case is the cremains dumping IMO. The odds that anyone would dump cremains in such a remote, hard to get to, seldom used site at just the exact time that a missing person search is in progress must be astronomical! I just really find that harder to believe than Big Foot! Truth really is stranger than fiction! JMO

Right?! How often does this actually happen? I think I've only known one person in my life who spread someone's ashes. And then it happens during the middle of a search. What?! It's completely mind-boggling. Of all the weird coincidences.

 

[BeeFriendly]

Just called the NCMEC I'm sure for the thousandth time to notify them the color of Deorr's eyes are not blue. The following is how that conversation went: Ring Ring. Blah blah press 1, blah blah press 2, blah blah press 3. any other reason press 4. me.. I'd like to notify your organization that you have the color of Deorr Kunz Jr's eyes wrong on his poster. You have them as blue and they are brown. NCMEC, "Please spell the last name." me..K U N Z. "Can you spell the first name please?" me...D E O R R. "How do you know his eyes are not blue?" me...His family says they are brown, look at the picture, his eyes are brown. "Do you know this child?" me...no, but I'm working on distributing his posters. "Do you know his parents?" me...no. I'm trying to help find this child. The color of his eyes are wrong on the posters and your organization has been notified hundreds of times. "Hundreds of times? How do you know that?" It's all over the internet, social media, his family's webpages. People have been trying to get your organization to correct his eye color for a month. "A month?" me... Yes, a month. What good are these posters if you don't have the eye color right? "I don't know, I'll have to get this to my supervisor." me... who's your supervisor? "Kylie." me...what's Kylies direct line? "I can't give you that information." me...who's the director now? I spoke to the director in 2008. What's their name and number? "I can't give you that either." me..what's it going to take to get his poster corrected? "It's going to take Law enforcement or his parents to do that. I'll give this information to my supervisor Kylie and maybe she can call someone to get it changed. me...Your supervisor Kylie, huh? You people have been notified a hundred times and done nothing yet. You didn't even know who Deorr was when I called. I asked him to please get on it.

So.... frustrated as all heck, what do you think the chances are, that if someone phoned in a lead,,,a dead ringer that looked exactly like little Deorr, but had brown eyes...what do you think the NCMEC will tell them? "Nope, it's not him, it says the missing child's eyes are blue. Thanks, for calling." Click. Po'd is an understatement right now. These organizations are the best we have??? God help us. Please God, watch over our children because we are surrounded by incompetence.

 

[Jules71]

I kind of believe the timeline of DK (I think?) who said it was around 2pm and they left for ten minutes and then searched for 20 minutes. That would line up with the first 911 call.

Could it be that the 911 operator words into JM's mouth when she said/suggested/clarified the 1 hour missing timeframe? JM seemed flustered (and was hard to understand) when the timeframe was discussed with 911. Perhaps she agreed to the 1 hour time to either instill a greater sense of urgency with the operator or just to get the conversation over with so help could arrive. I mean there wouldn't seem like any reason to argue with a time (especially since 1 hour sounds better/more urgent than less than an hour).

Although I am still not convinced of him "just disappearing"

This just made me realize something--- I've always thought Jessica said "about an hour" but maybe she said "half an hour". The call is cutting out at that point so the operator says "an hour?" and Jessica replies "yeah" but maybe she was distracted or maybe she couldn't quite hear the operator either.

The thing is, these parents seem so bothered by what the public is saying on social media -- but they don't seem too concerned with inaccurate info that's been published (arrival date & missing an hour -- both of which have been reported). Oh and blue eyes listed rather than brown! Although I admit I have no way of knowing if they called someone to correct that but it hasn't been corrected. If it were my child, I would be livid and escalating that up the chain until it's resolved. (I too emailed about the eye color.)

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Jules71]

Just called the NCMEC I'm sure for the thousandth time to notify them the color of Deorr's eyes are not blue. The following is how that conversation went: Ring Ring. Blah blah press 1, blah blah press 2, blah blah press 3. any other reason press 4. me.. I'd like to notify your organization that you have the color of Deorr Kunz Jr's eyes wrong on his poster. You have them as blue and they are brown. Them, "Please spell the last name." me..K U N Z. "Can you spell the first name please?" me...D E O R R. "How do you know his eyes are not blue?" me...His family says they are brown, look at the picture, his eyes are brown. "Do you know this child?" me...no, but I'm working on distributing his posters. "Do you know his parents?" me...no. I'm trying to help find this child. The color of his eyes are wrong on the posters and your organization has been notified hundreds of times. "Hundreds of times? How do you know that?" It's all over the internet, social media, his family's webpages. People have been trying to get your organization to correct his eye color for a month. "A month?" me... Yes, a month. What good are these posters if you don't have the eye color right? "I don't know, I'll have to get this to my supervisor." me... who's your supervisor? "Kylie." me...what's Kylies direct line? "I can't give you that information." me...who's the director now? I spoke to the director in 2008. What's their name and number? "I can't give you that either." me..what's it going to take to get his poster corrected? "It's going to take Law enforcement or his parents to do that. I'll give this information to my supervisor Kylie and maybe she can call someone to get it changed. me...Your supervisor Kylie, huh? You people have been notified a hundred times and done nothing yet. You didn't even know who Deorr was when I called. I asked him to please get on it.

So.... frustrated as all heck, what do you think the chances are, that if someone phoned in a lead,,,a dead ringer that looked exactly like little Deorr, but had brown eyes...what do you think the NCMEC will tell them? "Nope, it's not him, it says the missing child's eyes are blue. Thanks, for calling." Click. Po'd is an understatement right now. These organizations are the best we have??? God help us. Please God, watch over our children because we are surrounded by incompetence.

Thank you so much for calling!!! I would be irrate too. Does this mean the parents or LE has not called? If it requires the parents or LE to make that change, that makes sense to me - if you had said you are the mother or family, how do you think the call would have gone?

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[rkf]

Has it ever been said the campfire was actually afire? I saw on one map that there was a fire pit structure. Could it have been misspeaking to call it a campfire? Otherwise, that's going into pretty terrible territory that a nurse would feel comfortable leaving an elderly man with oxygen at a fire, double that wonkiness to leave him by the fire in charge of her son.

IIRC DK said they thought DeOrr would be fine by the fire with ggp. I will have to look for the link (I think it was the interview) to be sure, unless someone else knows off the top of their head.

 

[lauriej]

I hope the FBI is able to glean something from the information the sheriff has collected. I feel like the local LE did everything they possibly could to find DeOrr, called in SAR right away, used all the technology available to them. I think their efforts were impeded by the large number of untrained volunteer searchers who arrived to help, which led to contamination of the scene and a not particularly organized early search. I also think the fact that they didn't immediately treat the campsite as a "crime scene" means they may have lost evidence and obviously the lack of control allowed the cremains to be dumped at a particularly inopportune time. Having fresh eyes, especially those of people who have experience in missing persons cases, could provide new avenues to investigate. But as for the search, I can't imagine (other than restricting the search to qualified volunteers who would follow protocol), I can't imagine the FBI or anyone else could have done better. I think if he was in the search area, they would have found him. I do think it's odd that the NCMEC person came to help, but we really never heard anything about his/her participation/advice. They did create a poster with inaccurate information, which they have not changed after at least a few people contacted the center (including me.) How may more weeks do we have to wait? At least 5?

BBM

http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/DeOrr-Kunz-Missing-Idaho-321484631.html


Bowerman said Tuesday that everything has been turned over to the FBI, which includes interviews, recordings and physical evidence.

The FBI told the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office that it could be at least six weeks before it receives any information back from federal investigators.

 

[Cardinal47]

How does it generally work with WHO runs the investigation? Is there like a "point person" who heads things up and committees under that person who all report back to the lead?

Now that this P.I. is involved, is this like a separate entity in of itself? Or do they all share info and work together for the common cause.

I just wonder if folks get territorial and don't work together...

I think there is a lead detective with several LE working under him. As the case grows cold and more cases cross his desk there might be him and a secretary working for several detectives working on many cases.

The FBI would be separate. The Sheriffs office would share everything with the FBI but I don't think they reciprocate. The PI would share with the Sheriff but the Sheriff does not share with him..well a little nibble here and there.

MOO

I totally understand this, however since we know nothing about what evidence was or was not found, and up until recently, we have heard that nothing was found, it's like he vanished. The toy trucks that he had with him, and his oversized boots have not been located.

So, how does one vanish a child without leaving any evidence? Anything........

BBM is the $64,000 question!

 

[BeeFriendly]

Thank you so much for calling!!! I would be irrate too. Does this mean the parents or LE has not called? If it requires the parents or LE to make that change, that makes sense to me - if you had said you are the mother or family, how do you think the call would have gone?

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I don't have a clue. All I know is what I was told by the Director of the NCMEC 7 years ago, that this organization is run by volunteers. People answering the phone lines are volunteers. If they have volunteers available...(they send them out in 2's and 3s) twice a week...after 7 p.m when the volunteers are off work to go out and flash pictures around. Their response is not immediate. It can take hours or even days for them to have enough volunteers available to send. Maybe the volunteers manning the phone lines don't know their arse from a hole in the ground. Maybe the volunteer supervisor has dropped the ball a hundred times because she doesn't know her arse from a hole in the ground. There is a special code number assigned for reference for the parents and law enforcement to communicate with the NCMEC privately. Maybe the volunteer supervisor accidentally deleted the code...anything can happen, right? Just seems to me the stars are seriously out of alignment for poor little Deorr.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

It isn't up to John Q. Public to advise NCMEC on details of a case, imo. This is something done through LE and the direct parties. I am a bit dismayed at how people feel they have a right to jump protocol and call people on a case whether it is the Sheriff, the PI, or the NCMEC. This is a REAL investigation!! This isn't a reality TV series. A little boy's life is at stake and we are here as observers. Unless we can come up with some direct link to the case pertinent to said investigation...we need to let them do their jobs and leave them alone. No wonder internet sleuths have such a bad rep!! I had no idea people hounded LE and the rest for anything less than to report direct evidence.

ETA: To be honest, I don't think it matters if NCMEC has his eye color correct at this point. Sad to say.

Another thing...PIs work until the leads play out. If there are "sightings" of a child in various parts of the country...they have leads. We have seen this tactic used with several cases, but keep in mind the method of a PI and how they tend to "think" on a case. Abduction would best scenario and also the most lucrative.

 

[gliving]

View attachment 80016 July 11th 7:31 am View attachment 80017 July 11th 3:46 pm

http://www.wunderground.com/webcams/iddot/23/video.html?month=07&year=2015&filename=20150711.mp4

As I was pondering my rogue hunter scenario, I remembered my friend in CO who has a wildlife game cam near his home. He's always posting cool pics of animals on FB.

Does anyone know how these remote cameras work? Can you get a live feed over your computer or smart phone? Like home security cam. If someone had a game cam in the area, would it be traceable through phone records?

I imagine Stone Reservoir would be an attractive water source for the native wild life. Lots of species coming in for a drink.