ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

[AgathaTwistie]

MSN

Published: 2:10 PM MST March 7, 2023

Lori Vallow, the woman who is accused of murder and conspiracy to murder her two children and her husband Chad Daybell's former wife, Tammy Daybell, filed on Sunday to dismiss the death penalty prosecutors seek against her due to "the troubling thought" of executing a mentally ill person.

The motion to dismiss the death penalty for Vallow says that her mental illness is known to the court, as Vallow was found incompetent in 2021 and again in 2022. In November of 2022, the court found Vallow was fit to move ahead to trial. Her attorneys state that the prosecutors called Vallow not mentally ill, but evil.

"Even if the government’s new opinion of the defendant has some believers that the defendant is just evil, we don’t kill witches anymore in America," the motion says, calling a potential execution "a troubling thought."

Does anyone know if the brother of Lori will now be charged with murder over the shooting of the husband? There’s NO WAY it was self defence.

 

[iamshadow21]

Does anyone know if the brother of Lori will now be charged with murder over the shooting of the husband? There’s NO WAY it was self defence.

Um, you mean the one who died, supposedly of natural causes? You can't charge a dead guy.

 

[BeckyF]

Does anyone know if the brother of Lori will now be charged with murder over the shooting of the husband? There’s NO WAY it was self defence.

Alex is dead. Lori Vallow was accused of conspiracy to commit murder for the death of Charles Vallow.

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone know if the brother of Lori will now be charged with murder over the shooting of the husband? There’s NO WAY it was self defence.

It wasn't self defense, it was ruled a homicide. But they can't charge him because he died December 12, 2019 from a pulmonary embolism. Besides killing Charles Vallow, Investigators also believe that Alex Cox played a role in killing Lori's children.

'Sins of Our Mother': What Happened to Alex Cox, Lori Vallow's Brother?

In the Netflix documentary about Lori Vallow, Alex Cox is seen admitting that he shot his brother-in-law, Charles Vallow—and saying it was self-defense.

www.newsweek.com

What Happened to Alex Cox?

In September 2021, more than two years after Alex Cox killed Charles Vallow, the shooting was ruled a homicide.

Alex Cox was never charged in connection with Charles Vallow's death—because he died himself a few months after the shooting. Cox died of natural causes on December 12, 2019. He was 51.

In 2007, Cox attacked Joseph Anthony Ryan Jr, Lori's third husband, ABC News reported. Ryan was Tylee's father and the adoptive father of her first son, Colby.

Cox tasered Ryan and threatened to murder him. He pleaded guilty in a Texas court and was sentenced to 90 days in prison and five years' probation.

“Alex Cox said that he kind of took it upon himself to protect Tylee and Colby, and that he had attempted to take Joe's life,” April Raymond, Vallow’s friend, said.

A string of family deaths surround tragedy of Lori Vallow’s children

The investigation revealed a much darker tale beyond the missing kids.

abcnews.go.com

 

[loveplace]

It wasn't self defense, it was ruled a homicide. But they can't charge him because he died December 12, 2019 from a pulmonary embolism. Besides killing Charles Vallow, Investigators also believe that Alex Cox played a role in killing Lori's children.

'Sins of Our Mother': What Happened to Alex Cox, Lori Vallow's Brother?

In the Netflix documentary about Lori Vallow, Alex Cox is seen admitting that he shot his brother-in-law, Charles Vallow—and saying it was self-defense.

www.newsweek.com

What Happened to Alex Cox?

In September 2021, more than two years after Alex Cox killed Charles Vallow, the shooting was ruled a homicide.

Alex Cox was never charged in connection with Charles Vallow's death—because he died himself a few months after the shooting. Cox died of natural causes on December 12, 2019. He was 51.

In 2007, Cox attacked Joseph Anthony Ryan Jr, Lori's third husband, ABC News reported. Ryan was Tylee's father and the adoptive father of her first son, Colby.

Cox tasered Ryan and threatened to murder him. He pleaded guilty in a Texas court and was sentenced to 90 days in prison and five years' probation.

“Alex Cox said that he kind of took it upon himself to protect Tylee and Colby, and that he had attempted to take Joe's life,” April Raymond, Vallow’s friend, said.

A string of family deaths surround tragedy of Lori Vallow’s children

The investigation revealed a much darker tale beyond the missing kids.

abcnews.go.com

So much for incarceration acting as a deterrent from committing the same crime again...

 

[Ruminations]

I don't know, I think in a lot of ways, it might be easier to see this case for what it is - essentially a couple of amoral people who wanted to cheat on their spouses without consequences, live as honeymooners without entanglements, commit multiple murders for profit, and have an avid, loyal following of people who'd trip over themselves to help them achieve it all.

The out-there beliefs mixed up with mainstream LDS stuff (a lot of which is also out-there to non-LDS) is just window dressing mixed with smokescreen.

It's about sex, power, and money. Like most crimes of murder that aren't stranger-killings.

Very much MOO

There are two goals- IMO. Bringing the defendants to justice and preventing the crime from reoccurring.

The cultural background of mainstream, "sacred" or secret and/or off-shoot LDS teachings have to be considered to prevent such a crime from happening again IMO.

I am not trying to express disdain for Mormans as individuals. I hope that's obvious.

The same could be said for psychological or individual characteristics of the defendants- understanding them could play a role in preventing a repeat.

Motive is always interesting. For some crimes intentional vs. reckless vs. unintentional matters a lot, and motive narratives help make actions seem more or less deliberate. They also make it seem more or less likely that claims are true.

For instance, to debunk the money motive on Lori's part to point to Chad, her attorneys could say, "Lori knew all along that Charles probably changed the beneficiary. But she double checked for Chad-after Alex shot Charles at Chad's request- because Chad soooo wanted the money. Then, Chad reacted to the news by upping his wife's insurance. Furthermore, Lori generally had a much higher standard of living over her lifetime than Chad. She didn't have to kill for money."

Motive and cultural background (like the LDS church) make prosecution or defense claims more or less believable.

Yet guilt or innocence comes down to questions such as did this defendant help plan and carry out these murders or not? Not, did they want a sexy partner? Did their cult leader demand it? Was it for money? Etc.

MOO

 

[Howl]

I'm convinced that Alex murdered Joe Ryan. Joe's body was in a state of decomposition when found and was ruled a natural death due to heart disease, but Alex hated Joe Ryan (Tylee's bio dad).

Alex also attempted to murder Tammy Daybell (the earlier "paintball" incident) and was identified as the shooter who attempted to assassinate Brandon Boudreaux. Alex' phone pinged not far from the Daybell home when Tammy died. I'm convinced that Alex was somehow also involved in Tammy's murder.

I'm not a psychiatrist and don't play one on TV, but I think Alex was likely a psychopath and I don't think all the murders Alex committed relative to Lori and Chad were his first murder rodeo.

 

[wnk]

It is, but that site is NOT run by the LDS church.

And as you can see from the timeline they have on there, the whole connection is incredibly dubious. The provenance and documentation linking Smith to any kind of talisman would not hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

I'm not saying there aren't LDS who believe this - the links between the early days of the church and occult and folk magic are known! (Watch Murder Among The Mormons on Netflix if you want an idea of it - and how it can AND HAS been exploited by people approaching high up leadership with 'early church artifacts'.)

The question was, is the Jupiter Talisman mainstream, common practice, or part of official Church doctrine or belief, and I can tell you HECK NO.

MOO

The site I referenced (mormonr.org) isn't run by the LDS church, but it is run by a faithful member of the LDS faith and it includes many primary source links from faithful members of the LDS church at that time.

My point was simply that things like the Jupiter Talisman and other occult practices do have some basis in or ties to LDS church history -- enough so that those pieces of history COULD be used as support if CD were to claim that these things are not totally out-there "fringe" beliefs that the church would automatically condemn -- there's (at least potentially) precedent from early church history for those kinds of practices. Pointing back to Joseph Smith's fortune-telling/occult practices could also have been how he convinced faithful LDS members that these practices he was using were legitimate as well.

IMO, MOO, IANAL

 

[CSIDreamer]

Speaking of practices, i was reading something the other day and the slogan "Keep Sweet" was brought up in relation to the FLDS fiasco. Is that an LDS thing too? I remember it being mentioned in an interview regarding Lori, I think. JMO

 

[indicolite22]

I'm convinced that Alex murdered Joe Ryan. Joe's body was in a state of decomposition when found and was ruled a natural death due to heart disease, but Alex hated Joe Ryan (Tylee's bio dad).

Alex also attempted to murder Tammy Daybell (the earlier "paintball" incident) and was identified as the shooter who attempted to assassinate Brandon Boudreaux. Alex' phone pinged not far from the Daybell home when Tammy died. I'm convinced that Alex was somehow also involved in Tammy's murder.

I'm not a psychiatrist and don't play one on TV, but I think Alex was likely a psychopath and I don't think all the murders Alex committed relative to Lori and Chad were his first murder rodeo.

IMO Alex had zero motive to kill on his own. He attacked Joe because Lori told him Joe was molesting the children. Alex thought that he killed a zombie when he murdered Charles (he said so to ZP and he previously asked if zombification was reversible). Alex would not have killed the children or tried to kill Tammy and BB if they weren't labeled zombies. Lori and Chad profited from people's deaths, not Alex (unless Lori paid him to do it). After all was done, Chad wrote a letter to Alex, thanking him for his "services".

 

[indicolite22]

For instance, to debunk the money motive on Lori's part to point to Chad, her attorneys could say, "Lori knew all along that Charles probably changed the beneficiary. But she double checked for Chad-after Alex shot Charles at Chad's request- because Chad soooo wanted the money. Then, Chad reacted to the news by upping his wife's insurance. Furthermore, Lori generally had a much higher standard of living over her lifetime than Chad. She didn't have to kill for money."

MOO

SBM. There are texts between Lori and Chad from the time she learned about the change of beneficiary. She was devastated and Chad was consoling her. He upped Tammy's insurance a few months later (in September). After Charles' death Lori had no income. She needed money - she would even complain to police at the welfare check about not getting Charles' life insurance.

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm convinced that Alex murdered Joe Ryan. Joe's body was in a state of decomposition when found and was ruled a natural death due to heart disease, but Alex hated Joe Ryan (Tylee's bio dad).

Alex also attempted to murder Tammy Daybell (the earlier "paintball" incident) and was identified as the shooter who attempted to assassinate Brandon Boudreaux. Alex' phone pinged not far from the Daybell home when Tammy died. I'm convinced that Alex was somehow also involved in Tammy's murder.

I'm not a psychiatrist and don't play one on TV, but I think Alex was likely a psychopath and I don't think all the murders Alex committed relative to Lori and Chad were his first murder rodeo.

I agree with you on his involvement in the murders, however, I don't feel that he would decide to kill on his own. I think he was directed to do so.

 

[887sMtreme]

Speaking of practices, i was reading something the other day and the slogan "Keep Sweet" was brought up in relation to the FLDS fiasco. Is that an LDS thing too? I remember it being mentioned in an interview regarding Lori, I think. JMO

I believe it is unique to the FLDS branch, but would like that confirmed by someone truly in the know, which I am not.

 

[iamshadow21]

I believe it is unique to the FLDS branch, but would like that confirmed by someone truly in the know, which I am not.

That is an FLDS thing.

It doesn't mean that mainstream LDS church doesn't have its own things designed to shape and suppress womens' and girls'
behaviour, but I never heard the term 'keep sweet' until I started watching and reading things about the FLDS.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I'm just waiting for the judge to make an order forbidding jurors from talking about the case after the trial. Nothing would surprise me, with the way this process is being concealed.

 

[iamshadow21]

The site I referenced (mormonr.org) isn't run by the LDS church, but it is run by a faithful member of the LDS faith and it includes many primary source links from faithful members of the LDS church at that time.

My point was simply that things like the Jupiter Talisman and other occult practices do have some basis in or ties to LDS church history -- enough so that those pieces of history COULD be used as support if CD were to claim that these things are not totally out-there "fringe" beliefs that the church would automatically condemn -- there's (at least potentially) precedent from early church history for those kinds of practices. Pointing back to Joseph Smith's fortune-telling/occult practices could also have been how he convinced faithful LDS members that these practices he was using were legitimate as well.

IMO, MOO, IANAL

Absolutely, it could. But a member would already have to be open to the idea of occult and alternative beliefs. Which LDS often violently reject, but can also be particularly susceptible to. It depends on the person. The culture of the mainstream church also creates a kind of naïvety, which has meant that pyramid schemes have been rife in the past, and I imagine still are, today. When I was a member, everyone was selling Amway or cosmetics or Tupperware. I stumbled across a thread of posts somewhere (not WS) last night when I was googling to reply to stuff here that was all about how rife so called 'Christ-centred energy healing' was becoming, and how on the one hand, the church was speaking out against it, saying it was not compatible with church doctrine and practice, but also how they weren't actually doing anything to censure the practitioners, who were making a packet. My mother medicated my mental health problems from the age of five with potions from her herbalist, another church member, despite her not being a rejector of mainstream medicine. I know there have been vitamin selling scams, see the pyramid schemes above. And it's not just at basic member level. Check out 'Murder Among the Mormons' for how the highest leadership has been scammed, and scammed to the tune of thousands, for years, with 'early church history artifacts'. This is mostly, if not exclusively, done by members to other members.

I think people think it's kind of sweet how warm and trusting LDS can be on the surface, but the bitter truth is that the culture and the lack of true consequences for abusers means it's a breeding ground for free movement for people committing affinity crimes of things like theft, fraud, and most alarmingly, sexual crimes, particularly crimes against children. Domestic violence is also rarely punished in a way that results in true consequences for the abuser.

Affinity fraud - Wikipedia

I agree there's huge amounts of affinity crime in this case, especially from Chad to his followers. There's money flowing here, so just follow the money. LDS beliefs (and shadow beliefs) made it possible for him to do that. But it's still all about sex, money, and power, and I think the right presentation by the prosecution will make that clear to a jury made up of people from all backgrounds. I don't think you're going to need to be LDS or former LDS to grasp this, if they do it right.

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

So much for incarceration acting as a deterrent from committing the same crime again...

Right. 3 months in jail is a slap on the wrist, hardly a deterrent.

 

[CSIDreamer]

That is an FLDS thing.

It doesn't mean that mainstream LDS church doesn't have its own things designed to shape and suppress womens' and girls'
behaviour, but I never heard the term 'keep sweet' until I started watching and reading things about the FLDS.

MOO

I could almost swear MG used that term in an interview. Which if that isn't a mainstream LDS thing, was this little cult branching out more to FLDS? I'll dig around. All JMO because it sparked a memory.

 

[Pruddennce]

its a disappointment that the trials will not be televised. the families of the victims did plead with the court to lift the ban. I guess we all are disappointed! Daybell was on board with televising. (curious)

LV wants it both ways from what I read of her motion in January. saying she is "still suffering from a mental illness" but will not present that in the guilt phase as a defense....but if found guilty, she will call mental health expert witnesses to mitigate sentencing. I dont get that.

and then the 'use immunity' talked about regarding Zulema Pastenes...anyone have thoughts about that?

 

[iamshadow21]

I could almost swear MG used that term in an interview. Which if that isn't a mainstream LDS thing, was this little cult branching out more to FLDS? I'll dig around. All JMO because it sparked a memory.

I will caveat that with - I am not a Utah Mormon. None of my family are. My grandma converted from Church of England to LDS in 1954/55, when my mother was two, here, in Australia.

It's probably been almost twenty years since I read it, but I seem to remember Under The Banner of Heaven talking about how the lines between mainstream LDS, 'jack' Mormons, and FLDS aren't hard lines in generational families of LDS in historically high-percentage Mormon communities. Essentially, any LDS, regardless of sect, who has mostly 'born in church' relatives going back generations, are going to have family ties. The polygamy of the early days of the Church virtually assures it. So there's always a bit of transactional movement going on - people going from one form of Mormonism to another. FLDS going mainstream, mainstream going FLDS, people from both taking and leaving the beliefs they want and becoming 'jack' Mormons, and always, people like Chad coming up with new beliefs based on both new and old, mainstream and occult, and making something new. And there are smaller sects out there, too, that I haven't named here that have their roots in the same beginning, too. I know less about them, but there's probably still a little bit of the same back and forth.

So I have never, ever heard 'keep sweet' used out here, in my community in Australia, and never in general conferences broadcast from Salt Lake, or in Church publications. But that doesn't mean it's not used by some mainstream LDS over there because of the inevitable ties existing to this day between the different variations of the religion started by Smith.

Very much MOO