ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Ruminations]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653142092930236419

easier this way
'The diagram has markings that represent bruises on Tammy's arms and chest. There were 6 bruises on the front of her body. On the back there were 4 bruise
Bruising: Left front - bicep and collarbone area Right - 3 on upper arm, and one on the forearm
Bruising on the back - 2 on back of arm behind tricep area & 2 on the back of the forearm
No bruising on the lower body

They are going to show photos of the bruising taken at autopsy.
A couple will not be on the big screen - I think they're revealing in the chest area
A purple looking bruise is shown on screen. 2nd photo shows the cluster of bruises
Back of R forearm shows round bruises
I am no medical examiner but these look like bruises from a hand

They made an incision in the arm showing hemorrhage and took a tissue sample of the area
They show the sample they took from her arm. It shows the injury progression. Hemorrhage is the initial stage. All of the bruisings showed only hemorrhage which means they were prior to her death. Once circulation stops it doesn't hemorrhage
He points out the hemorrhage on the screen. Subcutaneous fat is normally yellow - this is dark showing bleeding
Photo of sample taken from her right forearm. You see bright yellow subcutaneous fat but also bleeding which meant it was a fresh bruise.
all from
@PrettyLiesAlibi

Chart from HTC ( not the actual chart, Lauren's sketch)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653142038920183809

One of my jobs required knowing some child abuse signs.

A big one was bruises in places that don't commonly take the brunt of bangs and falls- around the lower back and butt is very hard to hurt accidentally, and so to a smaller extent was upper arms except the elbows and shoulders. (So, biceps and triceps- worth a ?. It's not a common spot to bang.)

Another likely abuse/fight bruise are grab bruises. I was trained that it is nearly impossible to grab a person and only create one bruise. If the thumb makes a bruise on one side, a finger will make one on the other. If the grab is someplace where one side is fleshier, the thinner side might show the bruise sooner and the fleshy side later- possibly appearing to be only one bruise. But in general, if one side is bruised in a grab, so will be the other.

That kinda makes the arm bruises doubly suspicious.

Disclaimer: that trainer was over 20 years ago.

MOO

 

[BUF]

One of my jobs required knowing some child abuse signs.

A big one was bruises in places that don't commonly take the brunt of bangs and falls- around the lower back and butt is very hard to hurt accidentally, and so to a smaller extent was upper arms except the elbows and shoulders. (So, biceps and triceps- worth a ?. It's not a common spot to bang.)

Another likely abuse/fight bruise are grab bruises. I was trained that it is nearly impossible to grab a person and only create one bruise. If the thumb makes a bruise on one side, a finger will make one on the other. If the grab is someplace where one side is fleshier, the thinner side might show the bruise sooner and the fleshy side later- possibly appearing to be only one bruise. But in general, if one side is bruised in a grab, so will be the other.

That kinda makes the arm bruises doubly suspicious.

Disclaimer: that trainer was over 20 years ago.

MOO

And here was Gigi’s take on it…

I am no medical examiner but these look like bruises from a hand #lorivallow
@LawCrimeNetwork

https://twitter.com/PrettyLiesAlibi?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

 

[wnk]

In my inexpert opinion, this looks like "grab" bruises on TD's right-hand side and a "pinned down" bruise on the left shoulder/upper arm. IMO. MOO. IANADoctor

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653149424900784128

 

[Ruminations]

My question for those who saw the scene photos of Tammy deceased in her bedroom- what position were her arms stiffened in?

It sounds like her legs were straight.

I am picturing her strattled and held by the upper arms by one person, probably Chad. And her head held between knees and forehead held with an arm while her mouth is covered by another, with enough control of the head that the lips weren't injured.

On one hand, I don't think she was killed in her bed because I don't think Chad would inconvenience himself by changing beds himself. Also, I think Chad probably tried to lift her back to bed when he woke and dropped her by accident.

On the other hand, the easiest ambush is while she's sleeping. Alex could tiptoe in and they could sit on her and smother her, gaining advantage by attacking her while asleep. The jumping around could knock the lights mattress off the box spring.

 

[BUF]

Chanley Painter saw Melani & Ian Pawlowski entering the courthouse this afternoon …. possibly to meet with prosecutors for her/their upcoming testimony

 

[Mitch1]

I think just Chad … you know the person she was married to for 28 years!

IMO Alex may have straddled her pinning her arms at her side and smothered her while Chad laid on her legs to keep her pinned completely

 

[Laughing]

Agree with @Ruminations and @wnk .

Head Start, Title I in elementary school, regular ed -- handprint & restraint marks.

If a student showed up with those bruises and didn't say "wrestling with my big brother" or similar, you'd call the hotline.

jmpo ymmv lrr

 

[Trebor5591]

I think Chad is large enough to overpower Tammy, perhaps straddling her with his knees keeping her arms pinned down. I'm not sure if these bruises were described as small or not, like finger grip marks? But bruising on her chest and back sounds like more than gripping her arms.

What kind of man can cold-bloodedly smother the woman he was married to for 28 years and who bore him 5 children? Only a monster! IMO

 

[fred&edna]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653173518446784512

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I don't understand why several posters here are so quick to blow off Lori's hair being found on the duct tape. To me, it screams active involvement in JJ's murder. This is the direct evidence that people were wanting. We guessed that it took two people to subdue him. My husband owns a roll of duct tape, but it's kept in the garage. I highly doubt that any hair that I shed just accidentally ended up on it.

I agree, and it damned sure wouldn't be susceptible to attach to the sticky side UNLESS you were actively using the tape at the time.

 

[fred&edna]

I agree with everything in your post with the exception that I think they put a plastic bag over her head, both then held her until she died.

I keep thinking about this and I feel that a bag would have left marks around her neck... as it would have to be pulled tight. I could be wrong, though.

 

[BUF]

Bottom line … if Tammy was fighting back, she saw Chad trying to smother her.

 

[Teche]

@PrettyLiesAlibi
·
23s

Did a diagram to give you an idea of where the bruising was. Not perfect but you get the idea #lorivallow
@LawCrimeNetwork
View attachment 418651

Chad probably sat his fat body part on his poor sweet wife’s chest.

 

[LinasK]

This is interesting.

You are basically saying circumstantial evidence matters more than direct evidence. And I believe you are right a great deal of the time.

A witness giving testimony is direct evidence- not circumstantial. The defense can try to poke holes- such as by questioning the credibility of a witness- such as by saying they are just a child.

On the other hand- DNA evidence is usually circumstantial. But it is harder to think a gene has a reason to lie than a human.

I never get why people complain, "it's only circumstantial evidence!" Like that's a bad case. It seems most evidence, and sometimes the most believable evidence, is circumstantial evidence.

You are saying the case you were an alternate on was proven by direct evidence. But you find that direct evidence weak.

MOO

I have to agree. Eyewitnesses can have faulty memories/misidentify people. DNA doesn't lie.

 

[887sMtreme]

I believe women, if they have a propensity for evil, are more evil and devious than men and while a good mom or even a good woman would never hurt a child, an evil woman wouldn’t bat an eyelash at killing her own child. I was not there and can’t give you proof but I absolutely believe when Chad let her know they would be happier without her “dark” children, she took it from there, did the planning and killed the kids. Of course, AC had to stand by for disposal. He was also expected to get rid of Brandon, Charles and Tammy. As Lori put it, “the idiot” couldn’t do anything right. Even with the shooting of Charles, I think Alex shot once and she finished Charles off.

Even after all the gun range practices, he shot at Tammy and missed her, shot at Brandon and missed him. I believe Chad killed Tammy and just wanted Alex as a standby.

I also believe Alex took something to kill himself that would not show in an autopsy because they let him know he failed them and it was time for him to go out to eternity.
All just my thoughts.

Thank you. I’ll think that over.

 

[Snoopster]

I believe women, if they have a propensity for evil, are more evil and devious than men and while a good mom or even a good woman would never hurt a child, an evil woman wouldn’t bat an eyelash at killing her own child. I was not there and can’t give you proof but I absolutely believe when Chad let her know they would be happier without her “dark” children, she took it from there, did the planning and killed the kids. Of course, AC had to stand by for disposal. He was also expected to get rid of Brandon, Charles and Tammy. As Lori put it, “the idiot” couldn’t do anything right. Even with the shooting of Charles, I think Alex shot once and she finished Charles off.

Even after all the gun range practices, he shot at Tammy and missed her, shot at Brandon and missed him. I believe Chad killed Tammy and just wanted Alex as a standby.

I also believe Alex took something to kill himself that would not show in an autopsy because they let him know he failed them and it was time for him to go out to eternity.
All just my thoughts.

I agree with most of your post, but I have to disagree with your view that women are 'more evil'.

I think our societal standard is that women are loving and caring. And when they aren't, particularly to an extreme, then "we" think they are "more" evil. There are men that have been absolutely, extremely evil. And, yes, there are women than match them. But I don't believe they are "more evil". They are equally evil. I think LVD is one of them.

As to your comment about being 'devious', I think that evil women have to be devious because they can't generally be as physically as abhorent. (Not to say that some of them haven't found ways!)

So my opinion, and just MY opinion, is that women aren't more evil. It's just that we are shocked when they are extremely evil.

 

[iamshadow21]

I think it's possible Tammy was burked.

Somebody sat or knelt on her chest, holding her arms and shoulders down with their hands (causing the bruising) and waited for her to die of suffocation from not being able to expand her chest to take in air. She wouldn't be able to draw enough breath to scream, either.

Burking leaves the face and throat free from obvious signs of strangulation and suffocation, and the victim just as dead. Because the pressure is often dispersed over the torso, it sometimes doesn't leave much bruising to the body, either, especially if the surface the victim is lying on is yielding (mattress, sofa, etc.)

But I am not any kind of medic or -ologist of any kind, just an amateur studier of the development of forensics, and Burke and Hare and their contemporaries like Bishop and Williams are infamous for a reason.

MOO

 

[Snoopster]

Appears that Chad had a head start on digging the grace before Alex arrived. JMO

Yup. So Chad was clearly involved in JJ's death.
And when Tylee was buried Chad was burning branches, shooting and burying a raccoon in the same backyard.

If Chad's children don't look at these facts and they still stand by their dad, then they are being willfully blind. I'm so sorry that they lost their mom and now are likely to lose their dad, but they shouldn't blindly stand by their murderous father. He was clearly not 'framed'. The evidence shows that.

 

[LinasK]

Yup. So Chad was clearly involved in JJ's death.
And when Tylee was buried Chad was burning branches, shooting and burying a raccoon in the same backyard.

If Chad's children don't look at these facts and they still stand by their dad, then they are being willfully blind. I'm so sorry that they lost their mom and now are likely to lose their dad, but they shouldn't blindly stand by their murderous father. He was clearly not 'framed'. The evidence shows that.

Do we know if there ever really was a raccoon?

 

[Snoopster]

Do we know if there ever really was a raccoon?

The 'raccoon' was Tylee.
The raccon was being shot and buried at the same time there was burning going on in the yard. This was Chad's explanation if the neighbors questioned any of the activity going on in the backyard. Alex was there at the time. They were clearly both involved in the burning/burial.