ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[Snoopster]

So why was Alex in the area at the suspected time of Tammy's death? I think Lori sent him to Chad's for 'moral support' in case Chad chickened out.
JMO.

 

[mickey2942]

LVD is a piece of work. If she wanted Tammy dead, why didn't she do it?! I wonder if AC couldn't do it, maybe he really had issues after killing the children. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[LinasK]

The 'raccoon' was Tylee.
The raccon was being shot and buried at the same time there was burning going on in the yard. This was Chad's explanation if the neighbors questioned any of the activity going on in the backyard. Alex was there at the time. They were clearly both involved in the burning/burial.

That's what I think too, but it sounded like you might have thought that he had an actual raccoon there too.

 

[iamshadow21]

About the bruising... I know what we all think about the newbie coroner ruling natural when it clearly wasn't, but the bruising is something that may not have been very obvious at the time. I have heard (and my source is television, so have your bucket of salt on hand) that embalming can 'develop' bruises that aren't as clear to the eye and make them more obvious. The person embalming is just there to preserve the body, they aren't there to investigate death, especially one they probably know from paperwork was ruled natural, and the other staff come in and cover up any unsightly discolouration, including bruising, with clothing and cosmetics to make a body presentable. In Tammy's case, the people clothing the body after death would have highly likely been other LDS, because of specific rituals for the body around death.

I have found a site that mentions this phenomenon with a link back to a scientific article, but I must caveat it with the warning that THERE ARE EXPLICIT POSTMORTEM PHOTOGRAPHS ON THIS PAGE, AND THEY ARE NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH. Postmortem changes

I will state again for the record, I am not any kind of expert, just another amateur with a keyboard, so anything outside the scientific source is MOO.

 

[Pipersand]

Does anyone believe that CD's children will consider the bruising is perhaps indicative of something other than the natural death they cling to? If so, even now Tammy is helping her children to learn good from evil.

 

[Kemug]

Yes, very possible. MG and DW were there as her alibi.

I think so. I think they were unwittingly part of the plan - having guests overnight meant that she could have JJ in her room unquestioned, and do what she liked unobserved. Then take him to Alex, leaving her door locked. Of course she would have had the privacy to do what she liked to JJ in his own room, as by then they were the only ones living there. But she needed to have witnesses to alibi her if needed.

 

[KonaHonu]

Was wondering why LE chose a private lab for the hair DNA test - her commercial lab has a lower threshold than FBI's.
If the jury interpret this as Thomas seems to be arguing, some of the jury might think they're being hoodwinked .... by the State!... which can never be a good thing

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653054970428784640

Whoa,whoa, whoa! The private lab has a threshhold of 3 loci and the FBI requires 20? This definitely looks like the prosecution is trying to pull a fast one. And if this is the sample that was consumed so there can't be a retest this could be very bad news!

I personally think a mother's hair on her child is meaningless. But to now hear that the State chose a lab with low standards does not look good. I have no doubt it is Lori's hair. My issue is using a lab with low threshholds.

 

[KonaHonu]

I don't think its meaningless at all. Jurors want direct evidence, and this can be seen as direct evidence even if explained away by the defense. IMO

If you are a mom as your name implies I bet we could find one on your hairs on your child or his or her clothing at almost any time.

 

[KonaHonu]

I think so. I think they were unwittingly part of the plan - having guests overnight meant that she could have JJ in her room unquestioned, and do what she liked unobserved. Then take him to Alex, leaving her door locked. Of course she would have had the privacy to do what she liked to JJ in his own room, as by then they were the only ones living there. But she needed to have witnesses to alibi her if needed.

I've been thinking along these lines but I still think it would have been extremely risky. One little scream from JJ or sound of a struggle could have awakened MG/DW. Another thought I had was that maybe they were given GHB as well. I've heard tales from women who were given GHB and raped. They often report vague memories but that is it an dno hangover the next day. Speculating but I wonder if something like this explains DW's nightmare.

 

[Soulmagent]

That's what I think too, but it sounded like you might have thought that he had an actual raccoon there too.

I Kinda wish a rabid one had ate his face off and his heart out..that is just me being viscous.

 

[indicolite22]

LVD is a piece of work. If she wanted Tammy dead, why didn't she do it?! I wonder if AC couldn't do it, maybe he really had issues after killing the children. Wouldn't surprise me.

Alex called Tammy "warden" in a text to ZP. That was in September, weeks before she was declared a zombie. I don't think he had any issues killing an adult again.

 

[cottonweaver]

About the bruising... I know what we all think about the newbie coroner ruling natural when it clearly wasn't, but the bruising is something that may not have been very obvious at the time. I have heard (and my source is television, so have your bucket of salt on hand) that embalming can 'develop' bruises that aren't as clear to the eye and make them more obvious. The person embalming is just there to preserve the body, they aren't there to investigate death, especially one they probably know from paperwork was ruled natural, and the other staff come in and cover up any unsightly discolouration, including bruising, with clothing and cosmetics to make a body presentable. In Tammy's case, the people clothing the body after death would have highly likely been other LDS, because of specific rituals for the body around death.

I have found a site that mentions this phenomenon with a link back to a scientific article, but I must caveat it with the warning that THERE ARE EXPLICIT POSTMORTEM PHOTOGRAPHS ON THIS PAGE, AND THEY ARE NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH. Postmortem changes

I will state again for the record, I am not any kind of expert, just another amateur with a keyboard, so anything outside the scientific source is MOO.

Thanks for link, will take a look.
But just to add that all three noticed bruising that morning - LEO and the Depo Coroner & the Coroner. ( I copy pasted some of what the last two noticed in a post a couple of pages back, the one where I mentioned the LDS garments & which bruises might be hidden under that fabric, or not)

I was wondering whether CD noticed bruises as he called 911 ( Another WS member - GutFeeling- wondered whether this might connect with the bizarre rolling out of bed story. Gut Feeling speculated that he invented the bed roll to cover a bruise he himself saw)
I'm also wondering why all three felt they could not ask Chad about the bruising each of them saw. Just pose the question, even though they might have felt the bruising they saw was ' old'

I'm picturing them all, in my mind, dancing around unspoken things that morning - as a best case scenario

 

[KonaHonu]

Ah yes! Thanks
mitochondrial DNA

'As the major part of DNA is located in the root, hair shafts are usually problematic samples in forensic analysis. For these reasons, hair DNA typing is directed at mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which is present in high copy number in each cell, instead of nuclear DNA analysis.'

Efficient DNA extraction from hair shafts

Hairs are common biological samples in crime scene investigation. However, most of this evidence is comprised of hair fragments without the root. As t…

www.sciencedirect.com

this sample must have been a shaft.

I want to point something out that I think is VERY significant. I'm not a DNA expert but I do know a little about it. A person gets ALL of their mitochondrial DNA from their mother. This means that Lori and Alex would both match that hair (or both not match.) Based on the "evidence" the the prosecution presented they cannot say it is more likely to be Lori's hair than Alex's based on science. Sure, we are all assuming it was a long hair and that would rule out Alex. But there was no evidence presented to support that. MBP would also share the exact same mitochondrial DNA with Lori as would Tylee. So if it matched Lori it should have matched Tylee which calls the entire match into question. It also means the DNA expert lied on the stand when she said you get half you DNA from your mom and half from your dad. Since she knew she was testifying about mitochondrial DNA this was incorrect and misleading.

This is where the lab's low threshholds come in. There is a margin of error on everything. If they decided Lori was a match based on 3 loci, Alex, and all of Janis Cox's other natural children should also match on the same 3. But if you tested all of them some might match on 2 or 4 just because of random errors. This is a huge difference. That's probably why the FBI requires 20 so that if a sibling or even half-sibling from the same mother is tested and matches on 21 or 19 its not such a huge difference.

The defense did not pick up on this apparently. That is a pretty serious error for a defense attorney and could support and appeal based on incompetent counsel.

My gut tells me Lori planned the murders with Chad and Alex. But I'm growing increasingly annoyed with the prosecutors for seeming to be so desperate to convict Lori based on minimal direct evidence that they are playing games and misrepresenting the evidence.

 

[cottonweaver]

I want to point something out that I think is VERY significant. I'm not a DNA expert but I do know a little about it. A person gets ALL of their mitochondrial DNA from their mother. This means that Lori and Alex would both match that hair (or both not match.) This is where the lab's low threshholds come in. There is a margin of error on everything. If they decided Lori was a match based on 3 loci, Alex, and all on Janis Cox's other natural children should also match on the same 3. But if you tested all of them some might match on 2 or 4 just because of random errors. This is a huge difference. That's probably why the FBI requires 20 so that if a sibling or even half-sibling from the same mother is tested and matches on 21 or 19 its not such a huge difference.

The defense did not pick up on this apparently.

My gut tells me Lori planned the murders with Chad and Alex. But I'm growing increasingly annoyed with the prosecutors for seeming to be so desperate to convict based on minimal direct evidence that they are playing games.

Thanks
I'd been wondering why they excluded, for example, Alex from the 3 comparisons they chose, preferring Mel Gibb
IIRC mitochondrial DNA wasn't even mentioned in the testimony or cross but maybe the Defense have their own expert to explain this when they begin presenting?

 

[Nikynoo]

I want to point something out that I think is VERY significant. I'm not a DNA expert but I do know a little about it. A person gets ALL of their mitochondrial DNA from their mother. This means that Lori and Alex would both match that hair (or both not match.) Based on the "evidence" the the prosecution presented they cannot say it is more likely to be Lori's hair than Alex's based on science. Sure, we are all assuming it was a long hair and that would rule out Alex. But there was no evidence presented to support that. MBP would also share the exact same mitochondrial DNA with Lori as would Tylee. So if it matched Lori it should have matched Tylee which calls the entire match into question. It also means the DNA expert lied on the stand when she said you get half you DNA from your mom and half from your dad. Since she knew she was testifying about mitochondrial DNA this was incorrect and misleading.

This is where the lab's low threshholds come in. There is a margin of error on everything. If they decided Lori was a match based on 3 loci, Alex, and all of Janis Cox's other natural children should also match on the same 3. But if you tested all of them some might match on 2 or 4 just because of random errors. This is a huge difference. That's probably why the FBI requires 20 so that if a sibling or even half-sibling from the same mother is tested and matches on 21 or 19 its not such a huge difference.

The defense did not pick up on this apparently. That is a pretty serious error for a defense attorney and could support and appeal based on incompetent counsel.

My gut tells me Lori planned the murders with Chad and Alex. But I'm growing increasingly annoyed with the prosecutors for seeming to be so desperate to convict Lori based on minimal direct evidence that they are playing games and misrepresenting the evidence.

Yes. A description of the hair would have been useful eg colour and length. I’m sure the jury must have photos though?

 

[Kemug]

Does anyone believe that CD's children will consider the bruising is perhaps indicative of something other than the natural death they cling to? If so, even now Tammy is helping her children to learn good from evil.

I certainly hope so. But they will probably still believe that Chad couldn't possibly have done it.

 

[Kemug]

I've been thinking along these lines but I still think it would have been extremely risky. One little scream from JJ or sound of a struggle could have awakened MG/DW. Another thought I had was that maybe they were given GHB as well. I've heard tales from women who were given GHB and raped. They often report vague memories but that is it an dno hangover the next day. Speculating but I wonder if something like this explains DW's nightmare.

Well, it was always extremely risky, the whole thing. Actually JJ's killing was probably the least risky of all the attacks, as he could have been drugged with his bedtime drink, and then killed without the slightest sound.

 

[cottonweaver]

does any body recall whether the thud/bump was mentioned in yesterday's testimony? (911 call & coroner testimony day)

Garth on TV interview said he heard a thud ( but that's not in evidence)
Did Coroner, her Depo or LEO testify that Chad told them he'd heard a thud? I can't recall it.

So around 5.45am Chad 'manufactures' a thud & pushes her out of/ half out of bed & then starts yelling for his son but nobody mentions the noise to either of the three officials at 6am?

 

[Kemug]

I've been thinking along these lines but I still think it would have been extremely risky. One little scream from JJ or sound of a struggle could have awakened MG/DW. Another thought I had was that maybe they were given GHB as well. I've heard tales from women who were given GHB and raped. They often report vague memories but that is it an dno hangover the next day. Speculating but I wonder if something like this explains DW's nightmare.

Maybe hypnotism could help DW remember his nightmare?

 

[Kemug]

It seems that Emma and her family are now living in the Daybell house where all of this happened. I don't know how they could, I certainly couldn't, and wouldn't want to.