ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

[BUF]

IMO Garth was at work and Alex was present for the murder.

Do you know when Garth returned home from work?

Will Garth be testifying for the prosecution?

 

[Tanager]

I’m still scratching my head as to how this was done. Any ideas?

One of my siblings used to engage in a tickle torture involving sitting on my stomach with her knees immobilizing my arms, so that her hands were free to tickle me mercilessly.

She is now an attorney, and she has begged for my forgiveness.

 

[cottonweaver]

so, just having a cursory google

Sagepub says often the typical signs of asphyxia, which include all of these
- petechiae
- cyanosis
- facial congestion
- oedema
are not found at autopsy when a bag has been used

here we have the oedema but none of the others

I think this is why they used the bag method ( Insurance investigation risks)
I'm more familiar with the bag method as something from horror/ crime movies and we know that Alex loved his movies

 

[lonetraveler]

Was she held down by one person and smothered with an object by another?? Or, it's just one person doing both?

Could have used a plastic bag. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

so, just having a cursory google

Sagepub says often the typical signs of asphyxia, which include all of these
- petechiae
- cyanosis
- facial congestion
- oedema
are not found at autopsy when a bag has been used

here we have the oedema but none of the others

But I think it was an incorrect guess, because she didn't have an autopsy until she was exhumed.

 

[cottonweaver]

But I think it was an incorrect guess, because she didn't have an autopsy until she was exhumed.

have edited the post wrt the reason they many have wanted to use this method on Tammy. ( because it usually leaves no signs)

 

[Gut_feeling]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653142092930236419

easier this way
'The diagram has markings that represent bruises on Tammy's arms and chest. There were 6 bruises on the front of her body. On the back there were 4 bruise
Bruising: Left front - bicep and collarbone area Right - 3 on upper arm, and one on the forearm
Bruising on the back - 2 on back of arm behind tricep area & 2 on the back of the forearm
No bruising on the lower body

They are going to show photos of the bruising taken at autopsy.
A couple will not be on the big screen - I think they're revealing in the chest area
A purple looking bruise is shown on screen. 2nd photo shows the cluster of bruises
Back of R forearm shows round bruises
I am no medical examiner but these look like bruises from a hand

They made an incision in the arm showing hemorrhage and took a tissue sample of the area
They show the sample they took from her arm. It shows the injury progression. Hemorrhage is the initial stage. All of the bruisings showed only hemorrhage which means they were prior to her death. Once circulation stops it doesn't hemorrhage
He points out the hemorrhage on the screen. Subcutaneous fat is normally yellow - this is dark showing bleeding
Photo of sample taken from her right forearm. You see bright yellow subcutaneous fat but also bleeding which meant it was a fresh bruise.
all from
@PrettyLiesAlibi

Chart from HTC ( not the actual chart, Lauren's sketch)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653142038920183809

I think this is why Chad dropped Tammy on the floor. He wanted any bruises to be justified, but he may not have understood about the lack of bruising after circulation stops. I think he let Alex into the house after Tammy went to sleep, while Garth was gone, and one of them held her arms and one of them held a pillow over her face.

 

[RickshawFan]

Could have used a plastic bag. JMO

She'd have pulled off a bag while it was being put on, if there was only one perp. She was in good shape. IMO someone had to hold her down and incapacitate her while the other person smothered her.

 

[fred&edna]

I think this is why Chad dropped Tammy on the floor. He wanted any bruises to be justified, but he may not have understood about the lack of bruising after circulation stops. I think he let Alex into the house after Tammy went to sleep, while Garth was gone, and one of them held her arms and one of them held a pillow over her face.

I was thinking about the lack of bruising on her lower body, specifically her legs... and didn't Chad say her feet and/or legs became tangled in the sheets?? Hmmm...

 

[Ruminations]

So if Brenda Dye put P Edema as CoD that explains Gigi using all CAPS

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653137327504637952

Lol- she has decent all CAPS restraint. I could see why you'd look for an explanation.

(She goes to memes when the emotions bubble over! And her memes are spot on.)

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

Brenda Dye, Niner's summary post of her testimony

ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

Gahhh... There just aren't enough gifs, emojis, nor words for summa-this-stuuuuufff. (jmo) shame that swearing isn't allowed on Websleuths.

www.websleuths.com

HTC also tweeted the same day that T was found in the traditional LDS undergarments. ( covering some bruises?)
Dye says there was a blood-tinged sputum coming from Tammy's mouth. Before this call, Dye had responded to 20 deaths. None of them had been death by asphyxiation.

As an EMT, Dye had seen the sputum before. She noticed a kitchen hand towel that Chad had used to wife her face with the towel. Dye also used the towel to wipe away the sputum but it kept coming out of Tammy's mouth.

Dye says there was lividity on Tammy's back - where the blood pools at the lowest point of the body due to loss of circulation. Blake is showing Dye the photos of Tammy after she died. On one photo, you can see some bruising on the upper right arm.

Dye asked Chad for more information about Tammy's health. "He said that she had been feeling really off lately - like she wasn't in her body," Dye says.

Chad said Tammy had been having some fainting episodes including one at the temple where she passed out on the floor. Chad said Tammy had very low blood pressure and wouldn't go to the doctors. He said she tried to treat everything naturally.

When Dye noticed the sputum, Chad said that Tammy had leg convulsions and said she had seizures. He did not volunteer this information until Dye asked further questions.

Dye says Chad told her that Tammy slept on the edge of the bed with her leg out of the covers because she was having hot flashes.

Dye says because the lividity was on her backside, she died while on her back. Chad said Tammy had been feeling "off" and fell outside.

She went to the doctor and had a sprain on her wrist but Chad said she was prescribed Tramadol. Chad said she had taken all the medicine and there was no bill pottle in the house.

We now see a photo of Tammy's body on the bed. The mattress is a little off of the box spring. Blake asks Dye if she moved the mattress. Dye says she did not and the photo is an accurate description of how the bed looks. Dye did not notice any head bruises.

Dye says she consulted with the detectives and the morgue about whether to do an autopsy. She says there was nothing suspicious about the scene but Dye did ask Chad how Tammy could fall out of bed if she was deceased.'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653149424900784128

Dep Coroner Willmore, again from @Niner
'Willmore believes Tammy had been dead for a few hours. "She was 49 so this was unusual because she's not that old. I was looking for things on her neck, bruising, scratches, those kind of things," Willmore says. She observed bruises on her forearm but they didn't look new.' ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #72

Did Chad realise that there was visible bruising that morning at 6am? As far as he's concerned, there's $430,000 resting on avoiding any detectible signs of foul play/autopsy

 

[Caylee Advocate]

can anyone explain why they only tested hair against DNA from Tylee, MelG & Lori?
( Wouldn't they also want to test it against JJ's & Alex's ?)

JMO perhaps it was due to it being blond and longer, and those three had blond hair. JJ and Alex did not.

 

[LinasK]

JMO perhaps it was due to it being blond and longer, and those three had blond hair. JJ and Alex did not.

As an aside, a friend of mine said to me years ago, I ran into a mutual friend of yours- tall gal with long blonde hair. Took me the longest time to figure it out because I knew 3 women at the time who fit that description.

 

[cottonweaver]

Could have used a plastic bag. JMO

yes they learned lessons as they murdered ( After Tylee, they realised the difficulties of using fire)
So after JJ, they decided a bag for Tammy

And imo Chad, maybe using computers at BYU library, double checked by using the kinds of info freely available on net as to which asphyxiation tools leave least forensic evidence. That would have least risk of an insurance investigation etc

 

[aafromaa]

It’s been bugging me how CD & AC could have burned and dismembered and buried Tylee in such a short period of time. I went back and read an interview of a neighbor (link posted below). The neighbor mentions a bonfire last fall and a two or three more this spring - the interview was in June of 2020 right after the remains were found. I am now wondering whether they might have done more of the dismembering and burning in the spring of 2020 at one or more of these other bonfires.

Your thoughts on this possibility?

ETA oops I forgot the link…here it is..

Chad Daybell's neighbor describes 'strange' behavior after JJ and Tylee's disappearance

www.fox13now.com

 

[BUF]

Hmmmm….

We know, from Zulema, that when Alex found out Tammy's body was going to be exhumed he said he hoped he wasn't their fall guy.

https://twitter.com/cathyrusson?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Lori slides, but how probable will the death penalty be for Chad?

 

[Ruminations]

I just had jury duty last month, I was an alternate. There was not 1 shred of evidence, the entire case was circumstantial based on the testimony of a young child for an event that happened one time. I obviously didn't get to debate with the jury as I was an alternate but they voted the individual guilty based solely on one child's testimony. The hair is Lori's nail in the coffin.
Watching court TV is one thing but actually being in the court room on the jury is so different. I don't know why people are quick to blow off the hair, but IMO there is no way she will be found not guilty.

This is interesting.

You are basically saying circumstantial evidence matters more than direct evidence. And I believe you are right a great deal of the time.

A witness giving testimony is direct evidence- not circumstantial. The defense can try to poke holes- such as by questioning the credibility of a witness- such as by saying they are just a child.

On the other hand- DNA evidence is usually circumstantial. But it is harder to think a gene has a reason to lie than a human.

I never get why people complain, "it's only circumstantial evidence!" Like that's a bad case. It seems most evidence, and sometimes the most believable evidence, is circumstantial evidence.

You are saying the case you were an alternate on was proven by direct evidence. But you find that direct evidence weak.

MOO

 

[TigerLou]

It’s been bugging me how CD & AC could have burned and dismembered and buried Tylee in such a short period of time. I went back and read an interview of a neighbor (link posted below). The neighbor mentions a bonfire last fall and a two or three more this spring - the interview was in June of 2020 right after the remains were found. I am now wondering whether they might have done more of the dismembering and burning in the spring of 2020 at one or more of these other bonfires.

Your thoughts on this possibility?

ETA oops I forgot the link…here it is..

Chad Daybell's neighbor describes 'strange' behavior after JJ and Tylee's disappearance

www.fox13now.com

Interesting for sure.

I can’t imagine he did it all within that short window on that first day. But here did he hide her? Did he dig her up to burn her more? Why would he wait so long and risk getting caught? He could have been in jail alongside his wife and lost the opportunity to finish the job.

Of course maybe he didn’t finish the job. Maybe they uncovered an unfinished job. Hmm

 

[lonetraveler]

I think this is why Chad dropped Tammy on the floor. He wanted any bruises to be justified, but he may not have understood about the lack of bruising after circulation stops. I think he let Alex into the house after Tammy went to sleep, while Garth was gone, and one of them held her arms and one of them held a pillow over her face.

I agree with everything in your post with the exception that I think they put a plastic bag over her head, both then held her until she died.