ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

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Ok, just finished listening to this. IMO Audrey is not lying, but the prosecutor bungled the questioning by not asking her why she didn't tell the GJ and leaving that to the defense. Drives me crazy when attorneys fail to own their bad facts.

I'm not even to the "dramatic" part and I'm already doing the :rolleyes:
But, then again... I always do the eye roll when hearing from anyone who was close to LVD & CD. I think it's primarily due to the fact they try to distance themselves (when they actually knew the truth).

Why would Lori tell AB that MP needed a friend while in HI?? Why would Lori text AB and ask her if she had any "ideas" to help with the casting of TD? 'Just two things that don't make any sense. (Not that anything makes any sense within the portal posse).
 
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This is kind of off topic with what is being discussed right now but just wanted to add some questions I've been pondering.
1) Do you believe CD really cared for LVD? Or was she simply a means to substantial income (or so he thought) and he would use any woman who came along and fall for his tricks?
2) Do you believe LVD and AC were involved in an inappropriate and intimate relationship during the times the murders occurred? It is absolutely disgusting but I could see her using his attraction to her to get him to do her bidding. MOO.
3) Is their some significance for Narcon being in ACs system during autopsy? Anyone else find his death to be suspicious?
 
I get why the prosecutors did not ask this question. But I'd like to know:

1) Just how common was it for Melani to sleep in Lori's townhouse? For example, why didn't Audrey and Melani stay at Melani's home?

2) what was the reason Lori called Audrey from Walgreens- buying flip flops. And how did Audrey get her 100% trust ratings.

MOO
 
I get why the prosecutors did not ask this question. But I'd like to know:

1) Just how common was it for Melani to sleep in Lori's townhouse? For example, why didn't Audrey and Melani stay at Melani's home?

2) what was the reason Lori called Audrey from Walgreens- buying flip flops. And how did Audrey get her 100% trust ratings.

MOO

If MP gets to testify, maybe someone will ask her. I believe AB got 100% trust because of just what Lori said about her - she was gullible and naive.
 
I'm not even to the "dramatic" part and I'm already doing the :rolleyes:
But, then again... I always do the eye roll when hearing from anyone who was close to LVD & CD. I think it's primarily due to the fact they try to distance themselves (when they actually knew the truth).

Why would Lori tell AB that MP needed a friend while in HI?? Why would Lori text AB and ask her if she had any "ideas" to help with the casting of TD? 'Just two things that don't make any sense. (Not that anything makes any sense within the portal posse).

I'm one who doesn't think any of the side players had anything to do with the murders and that they had no idea of the truth.
 
Never heard about this Audrey person before, just wow....not sure what to believe.
All I knew before:

1) She had the highest trust level assigned by Chad/Lori- the only 100%

2) Shawn Littlebear told HTC she could not stop calling Chad. I am reading between the lines because Dude only speaks in stories and metaphors, PLUS seems a little evasive, but I think Shawn Littlebear was saying Chad kept her in his back pocket as a possible side piece or marriage partner for a chosen man.

3) She was called by Lori from Walgreens where Lori stopped on the way from Charles' murder and to JJ's school.

MOO
 
Ok, just finished listening to this. IMO Audrey is not lying, but the prosecutor bungled the questioning by not asking her why she didn't tell the GJ and leaving that to the defense. Drives me crazy when attorneys fail to own their bad facts.

1000% agree. That's the first thing most people are going to wonder?

I have a few thoughts though. Someone upthread talked about it surprising the prosecution. It obviously didn't because she led her there.

Why wasn't this done on direct? (I don't think JA was going to let this witness just leave but look at the amount of witnesses they didn't cross). Was that a gamble? Was it a breakdown?

This info also worries me given the state's track record of filings and disclosures. Certainly had JA more animated than we've probably seen

I'm sure I'll have more questions but pretty wild listening to that.
 
1000% agree. That's the first thing most people are going to wonder?

I have a few thoughts though. Someone upthread talked about it surprising the prosecution. It obviously didn't because she led her there.

Why wasn't this done on direct? (I don't think JA was going to let this witness just leave but look at the amount of witnesses they didn't cross). Was that a gamble? Was it a breakdown?

This info also worries me given the state's track record of filings and disclosures. Certainly had JA more animated than we've probably seen

I'm sure I'll have more questions but pretty wild listening to that.

TBH, I'm puzzled as well as to how her testimony unfolded. And I agree, the state was laser focused walking her through that testimony.

At first I thought maybe there was a motion in limine and the defense opened the door. Someone upthread did find a motion in limine and then we found it was denied, so IHNI.
 
This is kind of off topic with what is being discussed right now but just wanted to add some questions I've been pondering.
1) Do you believe CD really cared for LVD? Or was she simply a means to substantial income (or so he thought) and he would use any woman who came along and fall for his tricks?
2) Do you believe LVD and AC were involved in an inappropriate and intimate relationship during the times the murders occurred? It is absolutely disgusting but I could see her using his attraction to her to get him to do her bidding. MOO.
3) Is their some significance for Narcon being in ACs system during autopsy? Anyone else find his death to be suspicious?
1) All of the above. I think CD either had other affairs or at least tried to get them started with other women when he left his wife at home and did these speaking engagements. But I also think LV was the first one willing to give up her family for him and also that they were two peas in a pod with all this nutty belief system and their over inflated egos and they fed off one another and convinced each other they could do whatever they wanted to or needed to do to be together and compete their mission. that is not so much that one controlled the other but they both fed off of and into each other and it was a dangerous combination that created monsters who had no fear and we’re accountable to no one.
2) I don’t know but I think that AC was definitey in to her and that she knew it and used it whether they were doing anything physical or not during this time, I do not know.
3) I think he Narcon was given to him by 1st responders who thought he might have overdosed.
 
I’ve just rewatched the videos from police cams for Jan 30/31, 2019 - the ones where CV was trying to get LE to help & get psyche eval and the one where LV reports to LE that CV stolen her purse and celll from the parked car at JJ’s school on the morning after he got back from TX. That one shuts off as LE s waiting for CV to get to the station with LV’s purse & cell phone and the paperwork for the civil commitment. That one ends and I don’t really know if there is another one or not. If you know of a link for when CV arrived with LV’s purse & cell & a commitment order, please post the link for me As I cannot find it anywhere. If you know that it doesn’t exist, please let me know how you know that so I’ll stop looking lol

TIA
 
This is kind of off topic with what is being discussed right now but just wanted to add some questions I've been pondering.
1) Do you believe CD really cared for LVD? Or was she simply a means to substantial income (or so he thought) and he would use any woman who came along and fall for his tricks?
2) Do you believe LVD and AC were involved in an inappropriate and intimate relationship during the times the murders occurred? It is absolutely disgusting but I could see her using his attraction to her to get him to do her bidding. MOO.
3) Is their some significance for Narcon being in ACs system during autopsy? Anyone else find his death to be suspicious?
1. I think he was smitten past reason and she snared him — each for their own pathological reasons. I’m quite sure he was tasting CV’s life insurance money when he found out about it. I will never get what LVC saw in CD other than loving the goddess crap he was holding out to her.
2. Unusually close, sometimes even sexual, relationships can exist between siblings in dysfunctional and abusive families, for perceived mutual protection. There may have been something like that going on between LVD and AC. They publicly played with their intimacy, possibly trotting it out for shock value. True to her pattern, LVD would have played that card to get AC to do her bidding.
3. Narcon is routinely administered by first responders. I would read nothing into that.
 
I get why the prosecutors did not ask this question. But I'd like to know:

1) Just how common was it for Melani to sleep in Lori's townhouse? For example, why didn't Audrey and Melani stay at Melani's home?

2) what was the reason Lori called Audrey from Walgreens- buying flip flops. And how did Audrey get her 100% trust ratings.

MOO
Could Audrey have been in love with Chad??? Her description of meeting him sounded a little fan-girlish. He's meeting these women, messaging them PRIVATELY via cellphone.
 
Could Audrey have been in love with Chad??? Her description of meeting him sounded a little fan-girlish. He's meeting these women, messaging them PRIVATELY via cellphone.
I was thinking he was interested in her.

They all sound fangirlish to me…the guys, too!

I have a feeling “fangirlish” will boomerang onto Chad at his trial. IMO no one in the jury is going to see anything in him at all, and that will make him seem extremely manipulative.
 
Wait…What????

Aubrey says LV threatened to cut her up into pieces and said there would be blood & bleach & trashbags and it never came up in grand jury testimony or even on direct exam today but comes up at the last minutes of her testimony on cross? Really?

I couldn’t blame her for being scared of LVD back in 2019 or maybe even at the grand jury hearing but if she was going to share that today, why not on direct? I’m not sure the prosecution knew of this or perhaps they thought it too unbelievable to ask about since it wasn’t disclosed before???

I think my first step would have been to forget my things upstairs and get out of that house and to a police station asap…but even if I didn’t do that then, after all this time - after two dead spouse and two dead children, I’m certain I would have called and spoken to Rexburg PD about it by now.

I think I’d have a hard time believing this if I was on the jury and it might prevent me from believing anything else this witness said…maybe…or maybe I’m just in shock and have to think about that more later
I too think AB's testimony was bizarre. I guess I found her basically believable but the part about Lori threatening to kill her was so inconsistent with any other testimony about Lori. I don't recall any time Lori made a threat of violence. I think she "arranged" violence against others and did things to Charles like move his truck and steal money. But this is the only threat of violence I can recall. By "arranged" I mean manipulated AC into doing her "wet work."
 
Summary of tweets for Wednesday, May 3rd - Day 16

State witness: Fremont County Detective Vince Kaaiakamanu / Part 2


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
10h
Sketches from this morning.

sketch 4 to 6

NEW THREAD: Back in the courtroom. Boyce is on the bench and jurors are being brought in.

I have seen Garrett Smith and Josh Garner in the courtroom today. They are both attorneys for Melani Pawlowski. Smith represented her in Arizona, Garner represented her during grand jury proceedings in Idaho.

Kaaiakamanu is on the stand and Blake requests that a firearm seized from Alex's house be brought into the courtroom. "We will make sure all firearms are unloaded and steps have been taken to render them inoperable," Boyce says to the jury.

Two bailiffs walk in with an AR-15 in a long box. There are two other items. Blake asks if Kaaiakamanu can leave the stand to look over the items. He steps down from the witness stand and identifies the firearm.

"That firearm is the Alexander Arms Grendel 6.5 with a vortex scope on it." Kaaiakamanu says there are two solvent traps that "were drilled in to make homemade suppressors."

Blake asks to admit the AR-15 into evidence.

Blake asks Kaaiakamanu to step down and approach the gun. He is given a handheld mic so everyone can hear what he says.

The gun is placed directly in front of the jury. Kaaiakamanu says the gun has a large scope that could be used as a hopper - similar to a hopper on a paintball gun.

Blake asks the gun be held up so the jury can see it. A deputy comes forward and pulls the AR-15 out of the box. Kaaiakamanu points out where the scope is and Blake asks him to point out where a hopper could be on a paintball gun. Thomas walks over to observe the demonstration.

Kaaiakamanu says in his experience, a paintball gun can resemble an AR-15. Blake has no further questions. The gun is placed back on the table in front of the jury. Thomas will conduct cross-examination.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu about his professional background - when he became a detective, when he went to training, etc.

Thomas goes back and reviews the events from the morning Tammy Daybell died.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu if he made the call that there would not be any follow-up investigation on the day Tammy died. Kaaiakamanu says he didn't make the call. He believes Det. Mattingly spoke with Lt. Powell about the situation.

A few weeks later, the sheriff's office began investigating.

"At the time Fremont County got involved, we were asked to locate a Jeep with a plate out of Texas. That Jeep belonged to Tylee Ryan and she had gone missing. That's how we got involved," Kaaiakamanu says.

Lori is taking notes and talking with Jim Archibald while Thomas conducts cross-examination.

Thomas asks about the email Tammy sent to her son Mark while he was on his mission. Thomas asks for it to be shown on the big screen.

The email is three pages long. The first page doesn't have anything to do with the investigation, Thomas says. Kaaiakamanu says the first page is a lot of discussion about church stuff. On the second page, Tammy talks about her neighbor's dog getting stolen.

The neighbor chased the person who stole the dog, confronted the thief, got the dog and then went into labor.

On the last page of the email, Thomas points out a paragraph that starts with "his theory." Kaaiakamanu says that's referring to a neighbor and that neighbor has a theory that the "crazy dog" lady had her husband come back to steal the dog again.

Tammy says the theory is she spooked the man and he took off. Kaaiakamanu says he became aware of the situation but did not follow up with the lady who stole the dog.

Thomas has Kaaiakamanu read the part of the email where Tammy explains what happened the night the gunman entered her driveway. Kaaiakamanus says he never had a chance to talk with Tammy by the time he got this case.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu is he has fired a Grendel 6.5. He asks if there is a whooshing sound when AR-15 guns are fired. "It wouldn't be a whooshing sound but if there is a suppressor on it, it would be very quiet."

Kaaiakamanu says in Alex Cox's belongings there was some reloading equipment but no subsonic bullets or casings.

Kaaiakamanu says a warrant was later issued for Daybell's house. Deputies went out with metal detectors to try and locate casings. They did not find anything.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu to read the portion of the email where Tammy talks about hitting the person with her clogging shoes. She ran inside to get Garth and Chad but the guy was gone.

Tammy says they thought the suspect was "a bipolar teenager who lives down the street and walks a lot." Kaaiakamanu says police spoke with several people in the area about the "bipolar teenager" and found out he had autism.

He lived a lot further away from the Daybells than what would have been walking distance.

Thomas says, "Of all the people mentioned, you didn't follow up or speak with any of the people suspected of this?" Kaaiakamanu says that's correct - he never spoke with the autistic teenager or the husband of the woman who tried to steal the dog.

Thomas is done with the email exhibit and asks to see the Powerpoint presentation.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu about gun laws and whether you have to register a serial number when firearms are purchased. He asks the detective if it would be out of the ordinary for someone who owned one of these guns to Google how far it shoots, etc.

Thomas says if someone wants to target practice, you might go online to look up the range the gun can fire. Kaaiakamanu says that's correct.

The image showing Alex's Google searches on Oct. 10 is back on the screen. Alex performed several pornographic searches - along with searches for firearms.

The image showing Alex's Google searches on Oct. 10 is back on the screen. Alex performed searches for "trannys" and *advertiser censored* - along with searches for firearms.

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu if he interviewed or tried to find people who may have seen Alex at the gun range. Kaaiakamanu says he didn't speak with anyone.

Thomas following up on the geofence warrant Kaaiakamanu had served. It was for any activity 150 meters in all directions from the center of the house.

Kaaiakamanu repeats that a device registered to homerjmaximus was at the church the night Tammy died. "It was showing Wifi hits off the back side of the church."

Thomas asks Kaaiakamanu to review photos of the guns. Baffles were on the guns. A baffle enables the user of the gun to quiet down the sound of the gunshot. Thomas has no further questions.

Blake has some follow up questions. She asks why no detectives responded to Tammy's house on the morning she died. Kaaiakamanu said he called the coroner and the coroner said she had already spoken to Mattingly.

Kaaiakamanu also spoke with the deputy and everyone said nothing was out of the ordinary.

Blake asks about Alex's Jeep and when the request was made to Fremont County to help look for the vehicle. Kaaiakamanu says on the morning Tammy died, Fremont County did not have all the information about all the other investigations into JJ, Tylee and Charles.

Blake asks Kaaiakamanu if a bipolar teenager or the husband of a dog thief seemed like plausible suspects in the gun incident. The detective says no.

Blake: "Do you get a lot of reports of masked gunmen in the area?" Kaaiakamanu says no. At the time of the shooting, there was a blinking yellow light at the intersection but no other light in the area, he says.

Blake asks Kaaiakamanu if he can tell if the gun was threaded for a silencer or suppressor. Kaaiakamanu says it was threaded for a suppressor. That would change the sound when fired.

Blake: "When you conduct an investigation, do you go where the evidence leads you?" He responds, "Yes." He says he was not able to question Tammy Daybell about the incident because she was killed 9-10 days later.

Blake has no further questions. Boyce asks for a sidebar. White noise is played.


link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
Summary of tweets for Wednesday, May 3rd - Day 16

State witness: Ian Pawlowski.


Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
8h
Boyce says he is going to take up a motion outside of the presence of the jury. They are sent out of the courtroom for a brief recess.

Boyce says the first thing he needs to address is an Idaho rule that says parties must stipulate to allowing in large items or guns versus photos of the items. Both defense and prosecutors agree.

The other issue Boyce needs to address is the exclusionary rule. Archibald says Melani Pawlowski listened to testimony and read stories about the trial. "We believe that Ian Pawlowski has violated the rule because he's talked to his wife.

His wife Melani has admitted she violated the exclusionary rule. We would ask the court to conduct an inquiry and if they violated the rule, they be excluded."

Blake says Ian has not violated the exclusionary rule and you can't dismiss him just because his wife may have violated the exclusionary rule. Boyce is having Ian brought in for questioning to see if he violated the rule.

Blake says the state may call Melani P. but they ask Boyce to take that up as a separate issue. We are now taking a break until 2:40 p.m.

Back in courtroom. Boyce is on the bench & jurors will not be brought in until it can be determined if Ian Pawlowski violated the exclusionary rule. Witnesses were told not to listen to other witness testimony or read/watch the trial.

Pawlowski is here with his attorney Garrett Smith from Arizona.

Ian says his wife has not listened to any witness testimony but after her ex-husband Brandon Beaudreax testified, Melani looked up some headlines. Ian says he has seen headlines but has not read or watched anything. Archibald now questioning Ian.

Archibald asks if Ian was in the same meeting when Melani met with an FBI agent and Lindsey Blake. Ian says no. Ian says he and Melani arrived in Idaho on Monday from Arizona. Ian says he and Melani have talked about the case.

"Melani made a statement to the statement and officer 'the nail is already in Lori's coffin,'" Archibald says - asking if Ian overheard Melani says hi. Ian says he did not hear it and they have never said anything like this to each other.

Archibald asks why Ian brought an attorney with him. Ian says this is a complicated matter and he wanted one here with him.

The attorney also represented Zumela Pastenes. Ian says his attorney has not told him one thing about Zulema's testimony. Ian says he didn't ask and Smith never told him.

Archibald: "You're claiming you don't know anything about this case because you haven't listened to anything since it started five weeks ago," Ian: "Correct."

Archibald has nothing further. Blake asks for a moment before she questions Ian.

Blake asks Ian to clarify again that he has not read or watched anything about the trial. He says he has not. Boyce determined Ian has not violated the exclusionary rule so he is allowed to testify. The jurors will be brought in.

Jurors are in their seat. Lindsey Blake will question Ian.

Ian says he met Lori briefly right after he started to date Melani between Nov. 20-25, 2019. Melani is Lori's niece. Ian traveled to Arizona for Thanksgiving in 2019.

Ian met Chad the first time he met Lori at the apartment next to Melani's in Rexburg. There was not much discussion the first time they met. Ian said Lori and Melani had a close, supportive relationship.

"Was it so close that you went to Lori and Chad first before asking Melani to marry you?" Ian says yes.

Ian spoke with Lori less than a dozen times. Even fewer interactions with Chad. "At some point in those conversations, did Lori talk to you about her purported beliefs?" Blake asks, specifying religious beliefs.

Ian: "She discussed beliefs about possession, about locking Satan away - those are the two that stand out the most."

Ian says Melani was present for all the conversations he had with Lori. Lori brought up castings. Whenever Chad was present, Ian says Lori did most of the talking and Chad acted as a support to what Lori was saying.

Blake asks about multiple probations and creations. Ian doesn't recall anything specifically about that from her.

After Ian returned to Rexburg following Thanksgiving 2019, Chad and Lori were gone. "When you met her, did you ever see JJ Vallow? Tylee Ryan?" Ian says no. Lori never said anything about where the kids were.

Ian says he saw backpacks and luggage in Lori's apartment that looked like they were for kids.

Ian says Lori never mentioned JJ or Tylee. Ian says he's LDS and a large part of his belief is faith in revelation and the church is a living thing. "You have to maintain an open mind when new things come.

If I was going to learn something new it would either be through one of the Lord's servants or I would receive the revelation directly." Ian says at that point in his life, he had been through a rough divorce & was trying to rebuild himself. He was open to hearing other teachings

Ian says after a few days, he was not on board with what Lori was saying. He had a problem with the rankings of people being light and dark and who was good versus evil.

The first time Ian heard about the light and dark system was from Melani, who had heard it from Chad. Lori then referred to it in conversations but never directly explained, Ian says.

Lori told Ian that Det. Hermosillo and Det. Hope of Rexburg Police were zombies and dark.

Ian: "The point where it really turned for me was the morning after I married Melani. Melani dumped everything on me and shared everything. We were staying at the Bellagio in Las Vegas and my two children were with me. The next morning I got up and my daughter was gone.

She was gone for about 15 minutes. She was nowhere. Finally, I hear some giggling from behind the curtain. After hearing everything I had from the night before, that was terrifying. At that point I decided I wasn't going to give this a chance, I'm not going to mess with it."

Ian was worried for his safety, the safety of his children and his ex-wife's safety. On Dec. 5, less than a week after he married Melani, Ian went to Rexburg police. "They asked me to listen and observe and report back. They also asked me to make recordings for them."

Blake: "In those recordings, did Chad or Lori ever confess to a crime?" Ian says no. The recordings contain the religious beliefs Chad and Lori had, according to Ian. Lori and Chad told Ian to cooperate as little as possible with law enforcement.

"There was an arrogant, flippant attitude toward law enforcement." Chad was pushing them to get out of town. "Chad had a more serious tone, Lori had a lighthearted attitude toward cooperating with law enforcement."

Ian says Melani looked to Chad and Lori as mother and father figures. Melani was open to religious beliefs and told Ian, "This is what they're saying. What do you think?" Ian says Melani was "absolutely" closer to Lori over Chad.

Blake has no further questions. John Thomas will be doing cross-examination.

Thomas says his cross-examination was focused on the recordings Ian did for law enforcement and because they weren't played, he wants them retrieved so he can hear them. Blake asks for a sidebar.

Boyce says the defense intends to use the recordings and they need to be prepared. Court is dismissed for the day.



link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
 
I was thinking he was interested in her.

They all sound fangirlish to me…the guys, too!

I have a feeling “fangirlish” will boomerang onto Chad at his trial. IMO no one in the jury is going to see anything in him at all, and that will make him seem extremely manipulative.
For me the prosecution is painting a picture of Chad as a master manipulator and Alex as his fixer. I still don't think they have presented solid evidence of Lori participating in a conspiracy.

Another thing I've noticed about several of the players here is that they got married VERY fast. We've hear testimony that IP/MP, AC/ZP, and LV/CD got married after know each other for days not months (LV/CD knew each other longer but had obstacles. But we've heard testimony that they were flirtatious after a couple of weeks, and if there was a plan, it started in early 2019, just weeks after they met.) I don't think that is a normal LDS thing but please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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