Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #53

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Forever Young said:
Fair enough, but isn't this a kind of cultural brainwashing that they all suffered from? I say Tammy was not under Chad's mind control because obviously she didn't commit murder for him. How did Lori come under that kind of mind control when Tammy or Chad's children never did, even though they lived with him?
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Chad would tell Tammy to stop playing Farmville on the computer because her dead grandmother told him so. His family accepted that he had special powers. Why would Tammy commit murder for him when it was her that he wanted to get rid of?
 
Forever Young said:
Realistically, though, can a person be both an enabler and a gang leader? Usually these are two different roles.

Not meaning to be contentious, just conversing my thoughts about the dynamic here.



Perhaps I have watched too many You Tube videos explaining family roles in a narcissistic family, but I am seeing the dynamics of such a family played out here in the roles of Golden Child, Scapegoat, and the Invisible Child. These are very typical roles that children are handed by an NPD parent who highly values one over the others (CR), blaming one specific child for all the problems (TR), and not even seeing another child (JJV).

The bottom line being that they all are viewed as objects, non-human beings, only there to feed narcissistic supply to the NPD parent, and are quickly devalued and discarded when they no longer serve a purpose.

Sad, so very sad, poor darlings.
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I think this kind of case goes far beyond typical family dynamics into a whole different realm. I have commented repeatedly on this forum, that IMO narcissism, although demonized on the internet, is a pretty ordinary human trait, technically it's a personality disorder', whereby someone tries to manipulate other people who are alive and who stay alive. Personality disorders - Symptoms and causes

Whereas, when someone moves into actually killing people, their narcissism or paranoia or borderline PD or whatever, becomes as irrelevant as which party they vote for. IMO, killing people off is something far beyond what we encounter in life, that's why it's so shocking and fascinating.

I think understanding this case will involve looking at other similar cases where several people have conspired to murder off other people. Frankly, I can't think of any that are similar. IMO, it doesn't resemble cases where someone hires a pair of hit men to eliminate someone else. It doesn't resemble cases where people get into extreme sexual sadism with their victims, or an 'us against them' attack on established institutions and authority. There doesn't appear to have been the hatred that was behind the Pike County massacre of one family by another.

Folie a deux are familiar, where a couple are so close they share a mental delusion that leads them to do things that one person would not do on their own. So, perhaps this is a 'Folie a trois', that the murders would not have happened except through the strange chemistry and shared delusion of these three people coming together at a particular time in their lives.

I don't think anyone was under the mind control of someone else, I think each of them had motivations and personalities that meshed into some kind of shared delusion that doing these horrible things was a good idea, or at least, necessary. For example, I don't think Alex was a helpless puppet of his sister or of her lover. IMO, assuming he was the one who did the actual killing of the children, he must have had some killer instinct that was fulfilled in committing these actions, because he didn't just do it once, and then be racked with trauma and regret, he did it twice.
 
Forever Young said:
IMO, after listening to the recorded phone conversation, the body cam videos, the podcasts, etc., LV had more charisma in her little finger than Chad had in his entirety. MOO, yes, Chad was a blind follower of Lori. And just like MG, he was persuaded to lie to the police for her, not because she believed in him, but because he believed in her. Chad and MG were Lori's enablers.
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On the available podcast Lori doesn't seem well spoken or convincing at all.
 
Satchie said:
I think this kind of case goes far beyond typical family dynamics into a whole different realm. I have commented repeatedly on this forum, that IMO narcissism, although demonized on the internet, is a pretty ordinary human trait, technically it's a personality disorder', whereby someone tries to manipulate other people who are alive and who stay alive. Personality disorders - Symptoms and causes

Whereas, when someone moves into actually killing people, their narcissism or paranoia or borderline PD or whatever, becomes as irrelevant as which party they vote for. IMO, killing people off is something far beyond what we encounter in life, that's why it's so shocking and fascinating.

I think understanding this case will involve looking at other similar cases where several people have conspired to murder off other people. Frankly, I can't think of any that are similar. IMO, it doesn't resemble cases where someone hires a pair of hit men to eliminate someone else. It doesn't resemble cases where people get into extreme sexual sadism with their victims, or an 'us against them' attack on established institutions and authority. There doesn't appear to have been the hatred that was behind the Pike County massacre of one family by another.

Folie a deux are familiar, where a couple are so close they share a mental delusion that leads them to do things that one person would not do on their own. So, perhaps this is a 'Folie a trois', that the murders would not have happened except through the strange chemistry and shared delusion of these three people coming together at a particular time in their lives.

I don't think anyone was under the mind control of someone else, I think each of them had motivations and personalities that meshed into some kind of shared delusion that doing these horrible things was a good idea, or at least, necessary. For example, I don't think Alex was a helpless puppet of his sister or of her lover. IMO, assuming he was the one who did the actual killing of the children, he must have had some killer instinct that was fulfilled in committing these actions, because he didn't just do it once, and then be racked with trauma and regret, he did it twice.
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i agree at the end of the day what disorder isnt necessarily that important. I was initially thinking Folie a deux but all the studies I read involved people that were isolated from the outside world and once split up both parties commonly stopped believing in the shared delusion. I ruled it out because of how much interaction CD and LV seemed to have with the people around them. I would honestly love to read any research you found, its such an odd, interesting, and under studied form of psychosis.

For me I think it comes down to whether CD and LV actually believed in the future that CD was preaching or if it was just the lie they used to justify their horrible behavior and I can honestly say I switch back and forth on that
 
GRT said:
Only LV didn't think the bodies actually were her children. According to MG, when a person became a zombie, their true spirit was pushed out of their body and became trapped in limbo. A dark spirit then possed the body--a "zombie." Their true spirit could only move on to heaven if their physical body died. So of course, killing the physical body would be the only way to truly save the child's real spirit.

JMOO, but I think Lori and Alex killed the kids at Chad's direction, and Lori believed she was saving her true children's spirits when they did it.

I think that kind of mindset pulls the killing outside the statistical realm of filicide. I guess Lori could have had Alex to the dirty work all by himself, though, but she would still need to believe that Chad was correct in that her children were zombies.

It's odd and convoluted to say the least.
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bbm

When was the zombie clause added to Chad’s doctrine? Just before the first murder?

IMO Lori would have murdered Charles with or without the zombie takeover. It was convenient for Charles but necessary for the children. Whether Lori truly believed it, I’m still not sure.
 
nyvictoria said:
bbm

When was the zombie clause added to Chad’s doctrine? Just before the first murder?

IMO Lori would have murdered Charles with or without the zombie takeover. It was convenient for Charles but necessary for the children. Whether Lori truly believed it, I’m still not sure.
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BBM. Charles' body was supposedly taken over by Nick Schneider more than 5 months before his actual murder. Lori told him he was Nick at the end of January, as well as that she was an exalted being who could murder him with impunity. Charles notified police and family members about the threats.
 
ivegotthemic said:
i agree at the end of the day what disorder isnt necessarily that important. I was initially thinking Folie a deux but all the studies I read involved people that were isolated from the outside world and once split up both parties commonly stopped believing in the shared delusion. I ruled it out because of how much interaction CD and LV seemed to have with the people around them. I would honestly love to read any research you found, its such an odd, interesting, and under studied form of psychosis.

For me I think it comes down to whether CD and LV actually believed in the future that CD was preaching or if it was just the lie they used to justify their horrible behavior and I can honestly say I switch back and forth on that
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I find this all so interesting, but have to admit, that the study of personality disorders is relatively new in psychology, and seem to be changing all the time. But through online discussions, patterns are starting to emerge that trained and accredited counselors can see and integrate into their practices and diagnoses.

I found it interesting that recently Sam Vaknin has advocated for a single disorder that encompasses all the Cluster B personality disorders, the differences being just "overlays". The two key components being lack of empathy and manipulation or coercive control.

I can't wait for the duct tape DNA forensics. I can't wait for murder charges to come down. Every week I hope, maybe it will be this week or this month. It would be so fitting as the first anniversary of the deaths of our beloved Tylee and JJ lie just ahead of us. If pertinent dates were important to Lori and Chad, they are important to us also, for a very different reason.
 
Forever Young said:
I find this all so interesting, but have to admit, that the study of personality disorders is relatively new in psychology, and seem to be changing all the time. But through online discussions, patterns are starting to emerge that trained and accredited counselors can see and integrate into their practices and diagnoses.

I found it interesting that recently Sam Vaknin has advocated for a single disorder that encompasses all the Cluster B personality disorders, the differences being just "overlays". The two key components being lack of empathy and manipulation or coercive control.

I can't wait for the duct tape DNA forensics. I can't wait for murder charges to come down. Every week I hope, maybe it will be this week or this month. It would be so fitting as the first anniversary of the deaths of our beloved Tylee and JJ lie just ahead of us. If pertinent dates were important to Lori and Chad, they are important to us also, for a very different reason.
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Thank you for sharing your findings! I hadnt heard about Sam Vaknin, but it would make sense. alot of traits in cluster B tend to overlap across disorders and theres frequent comorbidity. I totally agree that this case will come down to forensics and am anxiously awaiting their reveal. hopefully testing will get back soon so Tylee and JJ can finally rest in peace
 
indicolite22 said:
BBM. Charles' body was supposedly taken over by Nick Schneider more than 5 months before his actual murder. Lori told him he was Nick at the end of January, as well as that she was an exalted being who could murder him with impunity. Charles notified police and family members about the threats.
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That I knew but I haven’t read extensively about what these two claimed to believe. It’s all so ridiculous that I have a hard time digesting it. Was that the first mention of people being taken over? And is that the same as being a zombie or a just step on the way?
 
Forever Young said:
Realistically, though, can a person be both an enabler and a gang leader? Usually these are two different roles.

Not meaning to be contentious, just conversing my thoughts about the dynamic here.



Perhaps I have watched too many You Tube videos explaining family roles in a narcissistic family, but I am seeing the dynamics of such a family played out here in the roles of Golden Child, Scapegoat, and the Invisible Child. These are very typical roles that children are handed by an NPD parent who highly values one over the others (CR), blaming one specific child for all the problems (TR), and not even seeing another child (JJV).

The bottom line being that they all are viewed as objects, non-human beings, only there to feed narcissistic supply to the NPD parent, and are quickly devalued and discarded when they no longer serve a purpose.

Sad, so very sad, poor darlings.
Click to expand...

BBM. I think so.

Consider this. Making no move to stop an alcoholic or drug addiction (enabling) to get a desired outcome out of them (gang leader).
 
 
indicolite22 said:
BBM. Charles' body was supposedly taken over by Nick Schneider more than 5 months before his actual murder. Lori told him he was Nick at the end of January, as well as that she was an exalted being who could murder him with impunity. Charles notified police and family members about the threats.
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This was one of the things LV said, whether she genuinely and consistently believed this, or it one of her many ways of diminishing his value in her mind, I don't know.

First off, it reminds me of Capgras delusion, a documented brain disorder where someone believes a person close to them has been replaced with someone else ; Capgras delusion - Wikipedia.

But her adding the storyline about it and her lack of consistently discussing it, makes me think it was more something CD or she'd borrowed from fantasy/horror popular culture productions like Harry Potter or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a kind of convenient device thrown in to make the plot move forward; 5 of the Biggest Harry Potter Plot Holes Explained

At the beginning, it seems to me from reading the timeline that LV was all over the map in saying and doing crazy things to CV. It's hard to see any consistent or overarching plan. She wanted a divorce, she didn't want a divorce, she wanted the kids, she didn't want the kids. But then, it seems to me, a plot was hatched around killing him and getting his life insurance, and she started acting more rationally. IMO, she lured CV into a reconciliation and then set up the conditions to stage the fight with Alex and his death.

IMO, this doesn't seem like LV's natural behaviour, I suspect a clearer head than hers was involved.

It's so unfortunate that, in spite of CV's previous suspicions that she and Alex were out to get him, he let her talk him into a faked reconciliation, and then walked right into the trap he had been afraid of. She obviously could turn the charm on and off, as needed. (I really wish he'd told her he'd changed his will and wasn't going to change it back until they genuinely got their life back to where it was before.)
 
 
Ohmeohmy said:
https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow/status/1303442552058675200
The inmate took notes about what she witnessed during Lori Vallow Daybell's first days in jail.



Woman speaks out after spending 4 days in jail alone with Lori Vallow Daybell | East Idaho News
REXBURG — A local woman who spent time with Lori Vallow Daybell in the Madison County Jail is sharing details about the experience for the first time. The woman has asked EastIdahoNews.com not to use...
eastidahonews.com
2:18 PM · Sep 8, 2020·Twitter Web App
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From link:

"When Daybell wasn’t with her attorneys, she was likely talking on the phone or having video chats with Chad or Colby. Daybell would sometimes wear earbuds so Cook could not hear what was being said to Daybell, but she listened to Daybell’s words and took notes. She talked on the phone with her son literally almost two days straight. After the big entrance at her arraignment, she got on the phone with her son and said, ‘I didn’t see you (in the courtroom). There were just so many people,'” Cook says. “He kept saying, ‘Mom, where are JJ and Tylee? Why won’t you tell us? What’s going on?'”

Cook never heard Daybell discuss where her missing kids could be; rather, she would talk about memories from the past or ask Colby to show her his baby. When Colby became frustrated that his mom was not cooperating, Cook says she would tell him to read the scriptures. She told Colby to read Job (a book in the Old Testament) and he would understand. She said she was being tested like Job,” Cook says. “She would say, ‘Colby, just listen to me. Everyone wants to know but it’s none of their business. God doesn’t judge me and they shouldn’t judge me. The prophet says to stay off social media so don’t go on there.'”


Ummm, okie dokey then. God doesn't judge HER and the prophet says to stay off social media.........
 
Forever Young said:
Click to expand...

So what did she mean when she said,

‘We’ll see if all of this is worth $1 million.' (running her hands down her body.)

She must have meant she thought Chad, in his desperation for 'this', would find some way to come up with the bond? If so it doesn't sound like she knew that much about his finances - he didn't/doesn't seem that well off to me. Or could she have somehow thought that she could attract another sugar daddy from jail who would bail her out?? (that doesn't seem very likely either!)

Strange!
 
Ohmeohmy said:
https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow/status/1303442552058675200
The inmate took notes about what she witnessed during Lori Vallow Daybell's first days in jail.



Woman speaks out after spending 4 days in jail alone with Lori Vallow Daybell | East Idaho News
REXBURG — A local woman who spent time with Lori Vallow Daybell in the Madison County Jail is sharing details about the experience for the first time. The woman has asked EastIdahoNews.com not to use...
eastidahonews.com
2:18 PM · Sep 8, 2020·Twitter Web App
Click to expand...

If this story is true, then LV has to be one of the most self centered and delusional people I’ve read about. Wonder if the inmate could be called to testify about LV not being sad or remorseful? I would think she could unless her credibility is an issue. How could LV possibly act that way knowing her kids were 6 feet under in her hubby’s yard? What makes a woman become that cold-blooded? I doubt we’ll ever get an answer to that question, but I hope Colby can find some peace somehow. My heart genuinely breaks for LV’s only surviving child.
 
 
Ohmeohmy said:
https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow/status/1303442552058675200
The inmate took notes about what she witnessed during Lori Vallow Daybell's first days in jail.



Woman speaks out after spending 4 days in jail alone with Lori Vallow Daybell | East Idaho News
REXBURG — A local woman who spent time with Lori Vallow Daybell in the Madison County Jail is sharing details about the experience for the first time. The woman has asked EastIdahoNews.com not to use...
eastidahonews.com
2:18 PM · Sep 8, 2020·Twitter Web App
Click to expand...
So I just watched Nate Eaton talk about this.
So I am not a psychologist nor do I know anything about personality disorders. If any of you do, do you think it is possible Lori is just a psychopath? I do.

When asked if she could meet the million dollar bond she brushed her hand from her hair to her her lower body and said “we will see if THIS is worth a million dollars”. Huh? Did she think some stranger, a new beau, was going to come up with a million dollars for her?

And her saying God doesn’t judge her. Oh buddy has she got an awakening coming!

No remorse at all for her children.

I’m off the fence about who killed Charles and Alex and Tylee and JJ. Lori did it. I don’t know how. But that woman did it and had the guys bury them. I’m convinced. Now just how she killed Alex, I am not sure. But she planned it. I don’t even know how she was able to use and manipulate Alex. Maybe with sex? Don’t know. Yes that’s sick but...
I’m sure that’s how she manipulated Charles and crazy Chad too.

I hope she enjoys prison and her girlfriends there. Yes Lori, God has a plan.
 
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