Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #58

[nhmemorymaker]

Right, but didn't he say she changed. She wasn't always like that, but something happened to change her. I think she fell into the cult thinking (which could be considered mental illness, but not sure it's treated/cured the same way as mental illness).

jmo

I just don't get this "she changed" thing.

Oh if only we could talk to Joe Ryan............ or husband's number one and two. I am sure they are trying hard to stay under rocks, but oh how I wish....

 

[Nikynoo]

This article had some interesting bits about Lori and competence: After 2 major developments in case against Lori Vallow Daybell, what's next?

A licensed clinical psychologist assessed Vallow Daybell in March and found her not competent to proceed with the case. In a rare move, prosecutors contested that finding.

"I have not, in a mere 49 years of practicing law as a prosecutor and defense lawyer, seen a prosecutor object to this kind of finding and this kind of report,” said Dave Leroy, a former Idaho attorney general, former Idaho lieutenant governor, and current private lawyer.

...

During the psychological assessment, they would have looked to see if Vallow Daybell was aware of her surroundings, could examine the facts of the case, and help her lawyer prepare for trial.

"Someplace in that mental process, according to the psychologist, Ms. Vallow has broken down in terms of assisting her lawyer in preparing for trial,” said Leroy.

...

Leroy said one of the reasons it’s not typical to contest the 90-day rehabilitation period is because setting the new hearing to contest the findings can take just as long. At that hearing, the state will be able to cross-examine the psychologist and bring in other evidence, which could mean another psychologist's report.

Remember, that state expert will not have direct access to Lori Vallow. And remember that the psychologist who did have that access was from the state Department of Health and Welfare; it wasn't somebody chosen by the defense," Leroy said.

Leroy pointed out that there are some ethical issues that come up when a mental health professional gives opinions about someone they have not personally interviewed, and it’s not likely the prosecution would give another expert access to her.

...

Leroy expects the judge will set the new hearing in the next 30 days or so. For now, Vallow Daybell will be transferred to a state mental health facility.

More at link.

Thanks for this - aditional information from the above article:
"finding Vallow Daybell unfit for trial now has nothing to do with her mental state at the time of her alleged crimes."

and more importantly:
".....eventually, the prosecutor can either decide to dismiss the case, or, if a long enough period passes, the judge can decide that it would be unfair to require the defendant to go to trial. That's usually after a period of several or many years,"

So, my question would be - IF the conspiracy charges in relation to Charles go forward, does that state have the same or similar rule in regard to competancy?

 

[Nikynoo]

I also note that it sounds kind of like the cousin to Melani’s deceased mother Stacey’s peccadilloes, doesn’t it?

SBM - I think there are many problems in that family - but I think Stacey was different.

 

[indicolite22]

MM is on Court TV again (at 4:22 and at 9:42):

He's talking about the elimination of the insanity plea in Idaho. "It's insane that we don't have it." MM thinks the reason is money.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I would say that again we do not know what he is there for, some are making an assumption when he is at the detention center that it must be for Lori. He has multiple other cases, he could be meeting another client, he could be observing something with mental health professionals and Lori, etc.... I think there are more possibilities than just him continuing to meet with one client who needs mental health restorative treatment and that treatment is being held up somehow because of him.

Without other information, I think we can’t say for sure that he is meeting with her every single time and that she has not started some form of treatment (medication or otherwise) IMO.

I think we're all assuming his car being there equates with him being there as well. JMO

 

[SleuthD-o-doubleg]

I think we're all assuming his car being there equates with him being there as well. JMO

I just want to clear this up a little. I personally have seen MM going into the building and leaving from the building. So that part is completely confirmed on the days his car is at the building.

 

[loreet]

I’ve wondered exactly this! What on earth could he possibly be telling JP about all of this? Or is it of no discussion at all, and they are just finding ways to dodge and weave out of the charges? The second is my guess. JMO

JP gave hints of a defense during Chad’s preliminary hearing when he questioned Melani about CD’s books. CD wrote fictional books, correct? Which Melani affirmed, under oath, on the stand. Well we know at some point CD started claiming his books represented his Actual True Apocalyptic Visions during his various talks and breakout discussions with gullible women. But is this documented anywhere?

The defense could suggest that Chad cannot be responsible for anyone taking his fictional works seriously. My children used to dress up as wizards and try to levitate household objects with Harry Potter spells. As a child I paper-clipped a brown paper bag cape to the back of my shirt and threw myself down the stairs attempting to fly like Superman. Is JK Rowling or DC Comics to blame for any injuries that resulted from over-active imaginations?

 

[CSIDreamer]

I just want to clear this up a little. I personally have seen MM going into the building and leaving from the building. So that part is completely confirmed on the days his car is at the building.

Ok thank you.

 

[indicolite22]

JP gave hints of a defense during Chad’s preliminary hearing when he questioned Melani about CD’s books. CD wrote fictional books, correct? Which Melani affirmed, under oath, on the stand. Well we know at some point CD started claiming his books represented his Actual True Apocalyptic Visions during his various talks and breakout discussions with gullible women. But is this documented anywhere?

The defense could suggest that Chad cannot be responsible for anyone taking his fictional works seriously. My children used to dress up as wizards and try to levitate household objects with Harry Potter spells. As a child I paper-clipped a brown paper bag cape to the back of my shirt and threw myself down the stairs attempting to fly like Superman. Is JK Rowling or DC Comics to blame for any injuries that resulted from over-active imaginations?

BBM. Yes, IIRC this is documented. This topic came up before.

ETA: The answer is in Chad's autobiography:

“The most common question I receive is, ‘What parts of your books are based on what you’ve seen in vision, and what part did you make up?’” Chad Daybell wrote in his autobiography. “The short answer is that I don’t fictionalize any of the events portrayed. I’m really not that creative… My torn veil allows information to be downloaded into my brain from the other side. The scenes I am shown are real events that will happen.”

https://www.fox13now.com/2020/01/31/fox-13-investigates-the-writings-of-chad-daybell/

 

[Diddian]

BBM. Yes, IIRC this is documented. This topic came up before.

The fact that CD provided particular information (estate levels and dark or light status) related to Lori's family members, including spouses and children, would also tend to support the claim that he was teaching what he taught as non-fiction, rather than fiction, at least to Lori and other of her family members to whom he presented that information.

Edited for grammar, clarity.

 

[RickshawFan]

I submit that the question now is, will the prosecutor’s evaluator confirm or deny her competency. THEN they can go ahead with the trial or restoration. Some evaluators are in and out in a hour, easily enough time for LVD to pull off her famous “acting”. The prosecution needs someone to go in that will spend sufficient time with her to see whether she’s fooling or not. I’m of the opinion that we’ve seen plenty of evidence over the past decade to show she knows how to pretend to the situation that suits her, and her next eval will show she’s competent. JMO

In a word: DeMarte. Bam!

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes, yes... When Zac KNEW that Tylee wanted to reach him, and Janis just whisked Tylee away from him..........
This has been the most crushing event to Zac... and he will never get over it.

This is why I said earlier, I just get angrier and angrier at that family. That Cox family from the start......... are just so, so (add many cuss words here)

I disagree with many here.... I don't think she is wallowing in her past Queendom. I think she is heavily heavily engaged in how to manage this theatrical insanity, with much help from her parents. Prosecution has to step up their game on this.

I wonder if Loris father is 'helping' Means?

 

[Nikynoo]

I HOPE that they can get Melani BP's father to be interviewed.

All those legal documents back and forth with the Father Cox, back when Stacey was so ill, and subsequently died, when the whole family was in Hawaii. Father Cox, is crazy as a fox, and has a way of driving the legal process crazy.

I am 100% convinced that he is behind the scenes of new insanity endeavor.

moo, and statement imho.

me too.

 

[Colorado303]

Snipped for focus


I’ve been wondering if MM has been at the jail to observe psychological interviews, etc.

Who wouldn’t go batty if subjected to psychiatric interviews practically all day every day for months on end.

No, Means is there because he wants to be in Lori’s company IMO. Presumably doing some lawyering of course . Though how can spending hundreds of hours with a client incapable of aiding in their own defense be a productive use of anyone’s time?

MM has to be one of the best paid babysitters/adult companions on the planet.

 

[MsJosie]

MM is on Court TV again (at 4:22 and at 9:42):

He's talking about the elimination of the insanity plea in Idaho. "It's insane that we don't have it." MM thinks the reason is money.

I wish the Judge or Judges would put a GAG order out. MM is going to wan a change of venue next, so much publicity, he is the one causing it for the most part…moo.

 

[Chelly]

My Psychologist wife says restorative efforts for competence could be achieved fairly quick. She says the vast majority are treated with medication and competent within 90 days.

I wonder what happens if defendant refuses to be treated with medication to make her competent?

 

[MsJosie]

I have heard and read that the ID State cannot actually “retest” LV, they can only go on what the initial state psychologist said. What testing was done van only be reviewed.

In other cases, of course other states, the State was allowed to bring in their own certified, registered, licensed Psychiatrist. That only seems fair that LV be “retested”

It does not seem fair. Can anyone expand on this or if already discussed let me know what post to start reading at.

I know from personal experience nurses sometimes know more then doctors…so psychologist may know more then a psychiatrist however, I feel the state should be able to have their own expert, especially when there is a very very good chance that LV can sway anyone to believe what she wants. MOO.

thanks for any input on the retesting.

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder what happens if defendant refuses to be treated medication to make her competent?

I think they can make orders for treatment too, and if the patient refuses it can be held against them, in determining how to manage their legal case. I'll look it up and post the exact wording I saw yesterday.

 

[pizzaman12]

I have heard and read that the ID State cannot actually “retest” LV, they can only go on what the initial state psychologist said. What testing was done van only be reviewed.

In other cases, of course other states, the State was allowed to bring in their own certified, registered, licensed Psychiatrist. That only seems fair that LV be “retested”

It does not seem fair. Can anyone expand on this or if already discussed let me know what post to start reading at.

I know from personal experience nurses sometimes know more then doctors…so psychologist may know more then a psychiatrist however, I feel the state should be able to have their own expert, especially when there is a very very good chance that LV can sway anyone to believe what she wants. MOO.

thanks for any input on the retesting.

I'm also interested in this and have zero information to provide. I believe Scott Reisch stated the person doing the evaluation is not someone the defense picked. It was appointed

 

[Tortoise]

I think they can make orders for treatment too, and if the patient refuses it can be held against them, in determining how to manage their legal case. I'll look it up and post the exact wording I saw yesterday.

Idaho Code 18-212 – Determination of Fitness of Defendant to Proceed — Suspension of Proceeding and Commitment of Defendant — Postcommitment Hearing » LawServer

(3) If during a commitment under this section a defendant who has the capacity to make informed decisions about treatment refuses any and all treatment, or the only treatment available to restore competency for trial, the court shall, within seven (7) days, excluding weekends and holidays, of receiving notice of the defendant’s refusal from the facility, conduct a hearing on whether to order involuntary treatment or order such other terms and conditions as may be determined appropriate. The burden shall be on the state to demonstrate grounds for involuntary treatment including, but not limited to: the prescribed treatment is essential to restore the defendant’s competency, the medical necessity and appropriateness of the prescribed treatment, no less intrusive treatment alternative exists to render the defendant competent for trial, and other relevant information. If each of these findings is made by the court, treatment shall be ordered consistent with the findings.



I'm not sure if the next section is applicable at this stage of the proccedings - it looks as if it has to be after a jury trial has started :

Idaho Code 18-207 – Mental Condition Not a Defense — Provision for Treatment During Incarceration — Reception of Evidence — Notice and Appointment of Expert Examiners » LawServer

(4) No court shall, over the objection of any party, receive the evidence of any expert witness on any issue of mental condition, or permit such evidence to be placed before a jury, unless such evidence is fully subject to the adversarial process in at least the following particulars:
(a) Notice must be given at least ninety (90) days in advance of trial, or such other period as justice may require, that a party intends to raise any issue of mental condition and to call expert witnesses concerning such issue, failing which such witness shall not be permitted to testify until such time as the opposing party has a complete opportunity to consider the substance of such testimony and prepare for rebuttal through such opposing expert(s) as the party may choose.
(b) A party who expects to call an expert witness to testify on an issue of mental condition must, on a schedule to be set by the court, furnish to the opposing party a written synopsis of the findings of such expert, or a copy of a written report. The court may authorize the taking of depositions to inquire further into the substance of such reports or synopses.
(c) Raising an issue of mental condition in a criminal proceeding shall constitute a waiver of any privilege that might otherwise be interposed to bar the production of evidence on the subject and, upon request, the court shall order that the state’s experts shall have access to the defendant in such cases for the purpose of having its own experts conduct an examination in preparation for any legal proceeding at which the defendant’s mental condition may be in issue.
(d) The court is authorized to appoint at least one (1) expert at public expense upon a showing by an indigent defendant that there is a need to inquire into questions of the defendant’s mental condition. The costs of examination shall be paid by the defendant if he is financially able. The determination of ability to pay shall be made in accordance with chapter 8, title 19, Idaho Code.
(e) If an examination cannot be conducted by reason of the unwillingness of the defendant to cooperate, the examiner shall so advise the court in writing. In such cases the court may deny the party refusing to cooperate the right to present evidence in support of a mental status claim unless the interest of justice requires otherwise and shall instruct the jury that it may consider the party’s lack of cooperation for its effect on the credibility of the party’s mental status claim.