Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #58

[Tortoise]

I think they can make orders for treatment too, and if the patient refuses it can be held against them, in determining how to manage their legal case. I'll look it up and post the exact wording I saw yesterday.

Idaho Code 18-212 – Determination of Fitness of Defendant to Proceed — Suspension of Proceeding and Commitment of Defendant — Postcommitment Hearing » LawServer

(3) If during a commitment under this section a defendant who has the capacity to make informed decisions about treatment refuses any and all treatment, or the only treatment available to restore competency for trial, the court shall, within seven (7) days, excluding weekends and holidays, of receiving notice of the defendant’s refusal from the facility, conduct a hearing on whether to order involuntary treatment or order such other terms and conditions as may be determined appropriate. The burden shall be on the state to demonstrate grounds for involuntary treatment including, but not limited to: the prescribed treatment is essential to restore the defendant’s competency, the medical necessity and appropriateness of the prescribed treatment, no less intrusive treatment alternative exists to render the defendant competent for trial, and other relevant information. If each of these findings is made by the court, treatment shall be ordered consistent with the findings.



I'm not sure if the next section is applicable at this stage of the proccedings - it looks as if it has to be after a jury trial has started :

Idaho Code 18-207 – Mental Condition Not a Defense — Provision for Treatment During Incarceration — Reception of Evidence — Notice and Appointment of Expert Examiners » LawServer

(4) No court shall, over the objection of any party, receive the evidence of any expert witness on any issue of mental condition, or permit such evidence to be placed before a jury, unless such evidence is fully subject to the adversarial process in at least the following particulars:
(a) Notice must be given at least ninety (90) days in advance of trial, or such other period as justice may require, that a party intends to raise any issue of mental condition and to call expert witnesses concerning such issue, failing which such witness shall not be permitted to testify until such time as the opposing party has a complete opportunity to consider the substance of such testimony and prepare for rebuttal through such opposing expert(s) as the party may choose.
(b) A party who expects to call an expert witness to testify on an issue of mental condition must, on a schedule to be set by the court, furnish to the opposing party a written synopsis of the findings of such expert, or a copy of a written report. The court may authorize the taking of depositions to inquire further into the substance of such reports or synopses.
(c) Raising an issue of mental condition in a criminal proceeding shall constitute a waiver of any privilege that might otherwise be interposed to bar the production of evidence on the subject and, upon request, the court shall order that the state’s experts shall have access to the defendant in such cases for the purpose of having its own experts conduct an examination in preparation for any legal proceeding at which the defendant’s mental condition may be in issue.
(d) The court is authorized to appoint at least one (1) expert at public expense upon a showing by an indigent defendant that there is a need to inquire into questions of the defendant’s mental condition. The costs of examination shall be paid by the defendant if he is financially able. The determination of ability to pay shall be made in accordance with chapter 8, title 19, Idaho Code.
(e) If an examination cannot be conducted by reason of the unwillingness of the defendant to cooperate, the examiner shall so advise the court in writing. In such cases the court may deny the party refusing to cooperate the right to present evidence in support of a mental status claim unless the interest of justice requires otherwise and shall instruct the jury that it may consider the party’s lack of cooperation for its effect on the credibility of the party’s mental status claim.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

This certainly explains Prior's smile back in March. Pretty sure he wants severance from Lori and all the baggage she brings with her. Then he can spin his defense around the premise that Chad was lured by the Siren. There is plenty of evidence out there to support her ability to disarm men, and women too (like MG).

?? and the conspiracy continues in that Lori cannot go to court, but wants allllllllllll of the documents from MG (to give to Chad for his defense?)

My head is spinning as to this all now.

 

[Dorothy Jane]

So... if the rehabilitation takes more than 90 days... they will try for another 90. What is the limit? Are there any cases where someone could not be rehabilitated and if that becomes the situation, do they simply commit her for life?

 

[887sMtreme]

To those outside that culture, Lori’s behavior and statements, she sounds schizophrenic. Remember there’s a culture there which accepts visions as a legitimate (and saintly) aspect of one’s religious faith, so might not seem alarming at all.

Holy cow! That message got all s=twisted around in my attempt to edit it some hours ago. It should read:

Remember there was a culture there which accepts visions as a legitimate (and saintly) aspect of one’s religious faith, so might not seem alarming at all. To those outside that culture, Lori’s behavior and statements make her seem schizophrenic.

My apologies.

 

[Tortoise]

Interesting. Thank you for providing. I've also been studying cult leader behavior, with attention to the way in which leaders manipulate vulnerable individuals into joining or immerse them in teachings until those individuals are so absorbed they cannot imagine themselves otherwise.

I would be very interested in knowing if CD was aware that a diagnosis of schizophrenia has occurred in LVD's family of origin and if he used that knowledge to manipulate LVD, much as it appeared he used his awareness about how she felt about various family members to come up with the "Family History" list he gave her which rated each family member by estate level and whether they were dark or light.

CD's teachings about zombies and dark spirits taking over the bodies of LVD's family members sounds suspiciously like Capgras Syndrome (Imposter Syndrome), a very rare condition that sometimes occurs with schizophrenics or others who suffer certain mental illnesses or brain injuries or lesions. The person believes that loved ones or others they know have been taken over by doubles or imposters. However, unlike most of these rare cases, where the mentally ill person reported the delusional belief, it appears in this case that the awareness about the presence of the "imposters" did not initiate with LVD; it was introduced by CD, at least as it relates to CV and "Nick Schneider" and Tammy and "Viola." And, I would venture to guess that when they occur among the mentally ill, the delusions are not shared among multiple individuals.

I do struggle with the concept of Lori being manipulated. I think we have ample evidence of her being the manipulator, and in that sense I understand the use of the term "perfect storm" that has been used more than once by family members and/or friends. I think Chad was not a natural leader or an extrovert, and that they created this storm as willing participants together. I don't actually think psychotic delusions were at play, only perhaps delusions of grandeur, with lust, greed, total selfishness, inability to love others, and an indifference to the suffering of others.

 

[887sMtreme]

Imo LVD has taken things to an extreme state.

Oh, I totally agree. But at that earlier stage (when Charles was trying to get police in AZ to listen to him that she was dangerously nutty), things weren't quite that out of control yet. I am not at all saying that LDS members would find (or even then would have found) Lori's claims to be perfectly normal in their religious context. I'm saying that they may have been less willing to question her sanity merely because she spoke of having visions. Would that be plausible? I ask because I truly don't want to be offensive in offering this one suggestion for why Charles's concerns were dismissed.

 

[Diddian]

I do struggle with the concept of Lori being manipulated. I think we have ample evidence of her being the manipulator, and in that sense I understand the use of the term "perfect storm" that has been used more than once by family members and/or friends. I think Chad was not a natural leader or an extrovert, and that they created this storm as willing participants together. I don't actually think psychotic delusions were at play, only perhaps delusions of grandeur, with lust, greed, total selfishness, inability to love others, and an indifference to the suffering of others.

I agree. If Lori was manipulated, it was because she allowed herself to be because the payoff was high to Lori. She was put on a pedestal and gained an admiring mate and his followers, shed her life of everyone she had tired of (CV, TR, and JJ, at the least), gained profit by doing so, and was strongly invested in the hope that she wouldn't be held accountable.

All the rest is just painted scenery and fabrication. The giveaway is that none of the delusions were told to police when they were investigating; they were only told to the victims and to those who were part of the following. Instead, the police were told fabrications such as CV was shot in self-defense, Tylee was away at school, and Tylee and JJ were safely away with trusted friends to avoid being taken by Kay.

 

[LinasK]

Perhaps Lori is trying to save face in front of her family. It wasn't her fault that she killed her own children, it was due to a mental illness.

The prosecutor thinks that Chad was the instigator and the one pulling the strings.

I could maybe buy this if the death of Tylee's father wasn't suspicious too. I think Lori began her killing spree before she met Chad. He just helped her justify it.

 

[Tortoise]

I expect there is plenty of evidence of her behavior, and observations of her video chats with Chad (until he was jailed), cell mates, and prison staff.

 

[887sMtreme]

I just want to clear this up a little. I personally have seen MM going into the building and leaving from the building. So that part is completely confirmed on the days his car is at the building.

Thanks! That helps.

 

[SleuthD-o-doubleg]

Oh, I totally agree. But at that earlier stage (when Charles was trying to get police in AZ to listen to him that she was dangerously nutty), things weren't quite that out of control yet. I am not at all saying that LDS members would find (or even then would have found) Lori's claims to be perfectly normal in their religious content. I'm saying that they may have been less willing to question her sanity merely because she spoke of having visions. Would that be plausible? I ask because I truly don't want to be offensive in offering this one suggestion for why Charles's concerns were dismissed.

I think from watching the video with Charles, the police failed him. They didn’t take his threats seriously. They didn’t fully take the time to investigate as they should have.

I think even LVD claims of her “visions” sound like she was building herself up so others see her as more and in a visionary light. Most people who are of LDS faith view these sort of revelatory things as sacred and would hold them dear to their hearts and not go around sharing.

All jmo moo imo

 

[ReadySet]

It kind of makes sense though. If he's going to drive all that way to deal with her, he might as well use that time to meet with some other clients.
I recall that Casey Anthony got her attorney Baez by a referral of another jail inmate.

How do we know he has multiple other cases? His home office is in the Boise area on the other side of the state. I don't think it's very likely that he's dealing with multiple other clients that are likely from that side of the state from the women's facility in Rexburg. Just my opinion.

 

[887sMtreme]

Who wouldn’t go batty if subjected to psychiatric interviews practically all day every day for months on end.

No, Means is there because he wants to be in Lori’s company IMO. Presumably doing some lawyering of course . Though how can spending hundreds of hours with a client incapable of aiding in their own defense be a productive use of anyone’s time?

MM has to be one of the best paid babysitters/adult companions on the planet.

I'm grasping at straws!

 

[Kakidoll]

Funny she needed mundane money, though.

Well, staying blonde takes money LOL

 

[LinasK]

Funny she needed mundane money, though.

Well, a girl's gotta buy lip gloss, hair dye, and mascara. Dontcha know that's more essential than food?

 

[Inthedetails]

An article from 2017 - haven't found anything more recent on the subject matter yet -

Are Cult Members Insane?


A new study of cult murders in the U.S. suggests that even the deepest and most disturbing convictions are no proof of mental illness—nor, some argue, should they be.


While Holoyda acknowledges that such cases are extremely rare, he concludes that American courts ultimately view cult beliefs—even those that have driven people to murder—as voluntary, no different from religious belief.

[...]

But the last two editions of the DSM both mention cults. In the fourth edition (issued in 1994), cults are referred to under Paranoid Personality Disorder; in the fifth (issued in 2013), cult involvement was listed as a potential cause of "identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion." [...]

Holoyda suggests that, under this relatively new definition, cult involvement would serve more as a mitigating factor in a criminal case rather than proof of genuine psychosis. "Someone could testify that a cult member was so beaten and broke by their cult that they simply did whatever they were told to save their lives or to protect themselves," Holoyda says.

Both definitions contain only traces of what is arguably at the heart of the question: the possibility of choice. While First objects to this as a means of distinguishing the sane from the insane, Appelbaum feels it is as close as anyone is likely to get to summing up the difference between a psychiatric disorder and an insane-seeming religious belief. And until the courts or profession of psychiatry are ready to wade into the debate on free will, that may be where the questions should stop.


(more to read at link)

Super interesting.

One point, though. This mentions cult members who are "beaten and broke" by their cult. That is the opposite of Lori. She was emboldened and empowered by the cult. Her "incompentency" is about believeing that, imo.

I realize others don't agree, but the cult beliefs have been at the core of these crimes from the very start, and I still think they are at the core of what Chad and Lori believe.

jmo

 

[cds0902]

How convenient to hide behind the guise of mental illness. I think the start of this mental breakdown was when she was denied a cell phone. I imagine anytime L.V. is told no it is a major deal. She had no trouble laughing with her attorney at her previous hearings, I think things just got real for L.V.!!

 

[Nosurprise]

MM is on Court TV again (at 4:22 and at 9:42):

He's talking about the elimination of the insanity plea in Idaho. "It's insane that we don't have it." MM thinks the reason is money.

Ok..is it unethical for an attorney to talk about insanity laws in Idaho. While he is involved in the ongoing case that he basically wants his client to be declared insane?

 

[Boxer]

Super interesting.

One point, though. This mentions cult members who are "beaten and broke" by their cult. That is the opposite of Lori. She was emboldened and empowered by the cult. Her "incompentency" is about believeing that, imo.

I realize others don't agree, but the cult beliefs have been at the core of these crimes from the very start, and I still think they are at the core of what Chad and Lori believe.

jmo

Heads of cults though are enriched by fleecing the flock.
CD and LVD more hands on.
Killing for and stealing insurance money.

 

[JujuColumbo]

What frustrates me is that regardless of her mental state, past or present, she should be held responsible for her actions. YES, even the actions of a mentally disturbed person..given all we have learned about her past, she has used the legal system to her advantage..
I have personally witnessed a distant family member do anything and everything to always come out ahead...well Karma is starting to finally come around so now she’s using the “ i am mentally ill” card to try and get out of her current charges...it infuriates me because there truly is an epidemic of mentally ill people in need of serious help and this *^# is using precious resources for her own benefit...so if I seem very bitter with Lori in this story it’s because I can see so many parallels to what I personally witnessed for decades..