Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #30

[watergirl62]

Is it usual in the US to register as a patient with a general medical practitioner after moving to a new town? And they request the medical history be transferred?

My first thought is that it depends on your medical insurance. I recently changed jobs, and went back to a traditional low copay plan but I have to designate a primary care doctor who manages all of my referrals,etc. My former high-deductible plan didn't centralize care in that way.

Also, I think it depends on your age and/ or medical needs. If I were a diabetic or parent with an autistic child it would be a priority. Assuming I have insurance.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't agree but it is interesting to see what evidence different people require before they would comfortably convict.

On the above view, murderers who have a good method of body disposal, and with no reports to authorities that the cared for minors and vulnerable persons are missing, would always get away with it. She knows her responsibilities are always present because she gave (false) accounts to various people of where they were, college and with MG watching the movie Frozen 2. There is no chance of a wrongful conviction imo, because the justice system allows her professional representation to defend herself, and she can say what happened to them and prove they are alive, and walk away a free woman.

moo

I agree that it is an underrated component of any murder charge in the jurors' minds

The defence could allege lack of evidence that the kids are dead in the abstract - but why no specific evidence they are alive, when that knowledge must surely lie within the purvey of the defence?

I think that would be a hell of a weapon for the prosecution

Why would anyone risk conviction, then they hold a complete defence in their own hands?

 

[Monroe2]

I can't help thinking they've got Lori's charges wrong. I would feel more comfortable if she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder of her children.

Aside from the obstruction and solicitation charges, she is charged with desertion and non-support, and contempt for not producing Tylee and JJ to the authorities. Those charges presume the children are alive, and I expect (as a non-legal person, so I stand to be corrected) there must be an onus on the state to prove life to prove she is deserting, not supporting and capable of producing them. All while there are no signs they are alive.

Imagine if the children are found deceased. Do the charges just fall away and she becomes entitled to automatic release?

Finding their bodies is still not going to prove who killed them. Even her DNA on them, as their mother, can be explained. DNA doesn't even last that long anyway and especially with decomposition.

I might be in the minority here but I think conspiracy to commit murder is the right charge - it doesn't require proof of who committed the murder, it has no less responsibility than the physical act of murder, and I think it can be proved by the following facts -

1. not supporting them financially or emotionally or in any way. not delegating that responsibility to anyone else, after the dates they were last seen.
2. no proof or signs of life. without means or ability to self-maintain. Tylee's Jeep not missing, bank not used, JJ's medication not used.
3. not producing them to authorities or producing proof of life, even when jailed = consciousness of death.
4. lying about their whereabouts to - police, SB, nanny. pretending to be Tylee in texts to Colby and Tylee's friend = consciousness of guilt.
5. getting rid of Bailey - Lori's premeditation.
6. lying about BYU - Lori's premeditation. Tylee was going to stay in AZ and had not enrolled.
7. disappearing weeks apart - means Tylee did not take JJ (nanny is proof Tylee was gone) (removing JJ from school = foreknowledge)
8. no one else responsible (ie Alex) because Lori never reported it, on either occasion. plus she lied that they were elsewhere when she knew where Alex was.
9. not maintaining contact with them.
10. abandoning their belongings for the storage company to dispose of. abandoning their home so that the children had no family home to return to. moving around because she knew the children would not be trying to find her.

MOO

Wow great job.for.an argument on.conspiracu.to commit.murder, I have always thought this too.maybe this will happen.

 

[Tortoise]

Minnesota sisters whose mother was convicted of hiding them for over 2 years readjusting well, father says

To be clear, I believe that in all likelihood Lori harmed her kids. Proving it in court beyond a reasonable doubt (with all other rational scenarios deemed impossible) is another matter.

If the children disappeared from somewhere where longterm survival wasn't possible (e.g. middle of an ocean or a desert), then I would understand the presumption of death. Since we don't know where they disappeared from, it can't be completely excluded that they were handed over (like in the above case) or sold to someone.

Well one month after those two teenage girls left the house they were court-ordered to live in, during a divorce and custody case which doesn't apply to Tylee and JJ, those girls contacted a local TV station and gave an interview. So I would say there were pretty good grounds for police believing they continued to be alive and in hiding and hadn't been killed by a parent.

Contrast that with no custody issues, Lori labelling her children zombies, her own niece thinking they were in danger of being killed if not already dead, and Lori removing every single coping mechanism from JJ's life, and then factor in all the deaths and near deaths in Lori's small circle, with no indication of grieving exhibited, and celebrations occurring. It is quite different.

Plus, if Lori handed over her children, she has to lay claim to it as her defense, it isn't for the state to assume every unlikely scenario for her. MOO

 

[indicolite22]

Well one month after those two teenage girls left the house they were court-ordered to live in, during a divorce and custody case which doesn't apply to Tylee and JJ, those girls contacted a local TV station and gave an interview. So I would say there were pretty good grounds for police believing they continued to be alive and in hiding and hadn't been killed by a parent.

Contrast that with no custody issues, Lori labelling her children zombies, her own niece thinking they were in danger of being killed if not already dead, and Lori removing every single coping mechanism from JJ's life, and then factor in all the deaths and near deaths in Lori's small circle, with no indication of grieving exhibited, and celebrations occurring. It is quite different.

Plus, if Lori handed over her children, she has to lay claim to it as her defense, it isn't for the state to assume every unlikely scenario for her. MOO

The burden of proof is on the state, not on her. The state has to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that she murdered her kids. IMO, the zombie theory might not be brought up in court, unless the person (or persons) who heard it from Lori and Chad directly, decides to testify against her. I expect Melani to deny it. No grieving would be observed if the kids were safe either.

If there was enough out there to convict Lori of murdering her kids at this time, she would have been charged with the crime already.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Is it usual in the US to register as a patient with a general medical practitioner after moving to a new town? And they request the medical history be transferred?

It is if you have children, because there are usually immunization and other requirements by the school/state. But there doesn't seem to be any enrollments in a new school? That also would point to premeditation. Why enroll them in school if they are going to be eliminated?

 

[VeryVeritas]

The burden of proof is on the state, not on her. The state has to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that she murdered her kids. IMO, the zombie theory might not be brought up in court, unless the person (or persons) who heard it from Lori and Chad directly, decides to testify against her. I expect Melani to deny it. No grieving would be observed if the kids were safe either.

If there was enough out there to convict Lori of murdering her kids at this time, she would have been charged with the crime already.

If the children are not proven to be alive, she will be charged at some point. There are multiple investigations here, not only the murder of the children. There needs to be some coordination. Children do not just vanish into thin air, with the parent pretending like nothing happened and there not being consequences.

 

[auburnmomof2]

I don't understand why, when she was arrested, there wasn't a plan put in place for her children by DHR/CPS. I thought that if a child's parent or guardian were arrested and jailed, there had to be a safety plan in place for the child. I have a friend who was arrested under false domestic violence charges and dhr immediately came and took her child and a safety plan was put in place for the child. It was a nightmare and a manipulation move by her ex because she escaped an extremely abusive relationship. But I just don't understand how LVD can be locked up and still not reveal where her children are! Logically one would think that because their only living parent is in jail, there has to be an appointed guardian that has to know where they are. Right? Just my thoughts and opinions. I don't have a good feeling about the kids being found or alive. She appears to be the most cold hearted individual.

 

[utahobserver]

Thanks. So, conspiracy requires two or more people, and probably isn't the right charge for the children, if they can't prove a specific or any other second person was involved.

I think (moo) the charge should be murder then, which doesn't require physical presence; as their mother and the person the children were in the care of and with knowledge she was not caring for them and nobody else was, and - to be proven by actions already listed - knowledge of their deaths, and hiding their deaths, and the hiding of them two weeks apart adding to strong presumption that the deaths were not accidental or natural, being a principal as defined here:

Idaho Code 18-204 – Principals Defined
All persons concerned in the commission of a crime, whether it be felony or misdemeanor, and whether they directly commit the act constituting the offense or aid and abet in its commission, or, not being present, have advised and encouraged its commission, or who, by fraud, contrivance, or force, occasion the intoxication of another for the purpose of causing him to commit any crime, or who, by threats, menaces, command or coercion, compel another to commit any crime, are principals in any crime so committed.
» Idaho Code 18-204 – Principals DefinedLawServer

MOO

They may be able to charge Lori with murder according to your rationale. It is very hard to prove murder without a body in the U.S. - but that being said there is an insane amount of circumstantial evidence, as you have outlined. It is as if she is daring LE for the indictment.

I think 2 elements, now bring Chad to the conspiracy to commit murder in Idaho table:
JJ Disappearance:
Phone call to MG asking her to lie about JJ’s whereabouts.

Attempted Murder of Tammy:
Alleged purchase of ski mask

In Arizona:
Attempted Murder of Brandon:
Lugging tire in storage unit

And, if we are lucky, and they can indict Lori on conspiracy to commit murder for Charles in Arizona, they may be able to include Chad, based on the emails and mission list. IT forensics will be crucial for this.

Also, if there is any evidence anywhere of Chad influencing Alex to commit suicide through influence, he would be an accomplice there, and maybe ZP as well.

Arizona Criminal Code
13-301. Definition of accomplice
View Document

1. Solicits or commands another person to commit the offense; or

2. Aids, counsels, agrees to aid or attempts to aid another person in planning or committing an offense.

3. Provides means or opportunity to another person to commit the offense.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Minnesota sisters whose mother was convicted of hiding them for over 2 years readjusting well, father says

To be clear, I believe that in all likelihood Lori harmed her kids. Proving it in court beyond a reasonable doubt (with all other rational scenarios deemed impossible) is another matter.

If the children disappeared from somewhere where longterm survival wasn't possible (e.g. middle of an ocean or a desert), then I would understand the presumption of death. Since we don't know where they disappeared from, it can't be completely excluded that they were handed over (like in the above case) or sold to someone.

That's not really an equivalent scenario, is it? Biological Parents hiding or kidnapping children as part of a custody dispute (As even BB is doing for their own safety) is not the same thing. That is in fact how most children in the USA go missing, it's a domestic abduction. LVD was not in a custody dispute, until after TR and JJ went missing. And that is not with their legal fathers (both of whom are very dead, even though JJ was adopted). Now, perhaps someone can detail what happens in ID; if LVD is found to have been an unfit mother by not caring for her children, they vanish and she doesn't prove they are alive? KW's filing for custody of JJ should be heard, right? If custody is awarded to KW and JJ still isn't produced, then what? At the same time, the piles of circumstantial evidence can not be ignored. When it comes to domestic violence, especially children, the constitution is turned on it's head and you have to essentially prove your innocence. Unfortunately, a % of people abuse those laws, falsely accusing of sexual abuse, etc... to get an upper hand on a spouse in a divorce/custody dispute. The intensity of abuse of those laws, use of "ex-parte protection orders, etc" does vary by state.

 

[Tortoise]

The burden of proof is on the state, not on her. The state has to prove beyond the reasonable doubt that she murdered her kids. IMO, the zombie theory might not be brought up in court, unless the person (or persons) who heard it from Lori and Chad directly, decides to testify against her. I expect Melani to deny it. No grieving would be observed if the kids were safe either.

If there was enough out there to convict Lori of murdering her kids at this time, she would have been charged with the crime already.

Thank you, and yes I understand the adversarial system very well. The burden of proof is upon the state to prove the alleged charges and the burden is upon the defense to introduce reasonable doubt. Hypothetically, if you were on this jury, I wonder how you would feel about the state putting on a lot of evidence to support the allegation that the children are dead, if she did and said absolutely nothing to show the court that this is not the case.

As regards the zombie evidence I think they could introduce it via NP, and a download of the computer that IP gave her for the children, even if IP pleads the 5th, unless there were court orders decided by the judge before trial stating that it is prejudicial and inadmissible. It depends which side wins that argument. I don't think they could argue it wasn't IP who wrote it, given the content.

moo

 

[VeryVeritas]

I don't understand why, when she was arrested, there wasn't a plan put in place for her children by DHR/CPS. I thought that if a child's parent or guardian were arrested and jailed, there had to be a safety plan in place for the child. I have a friend who was arrested under false domestic violence charges and dhr immediately came and took her child and a safety plan was put in place for the child. It was a nightmare and a manipulation move by her ex because she escaped an extremely abusive relationship. But I just don't understand how LVD can be locked up and still not reveal where her children are! Logically one would think that because their only living parent is in jail, there has to be an appointed guardian that has to know where they are. Right? Just my thoughts and opinions. I don't have a good feeling about the kids being found or alive. She appears to be the most cold hearted individual.

Exactly!

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Yet things worth digging into. Very likely financial crimes and fraud throughout.

Interesting, this was 3 weeks ago. First I'm hearing of "Digital Evidence" linking AxC to TD's death. Didn't hear much else in there that was new. By Digital Evidence it could mean mobile phone, wearable devices, etc that created a trail of his movements.
From the other public evidence, there is nothing to suggest that AxC acted unilaterally in the murders and attempted murders.
The other thing that stands out for me is that in the LE bodycam interview outside of CV/LVD's home, he explains ever so calmly that he was hit in the head with a baseball bat and then went to bedroom to get his gun. To me, that's been a highly suspicious scenario.
If you can go get your gun, you can also tell the person to get the hell out of the house. It's not like it was an armed intruder. But AxC's very calm way to talking to the officers seems to put them at ease. It's rather amazing. I can't imagine any place I have ever lived where a person would get so little scrutiny for shooting an unarmed family member. He knew exactly how to talk to them. I wasn't sure if by some of the other video they were implying that CV was shot with .50 caliber rounds? CV had no chance of survival with 1 round to the chest with that, muchless 5, and then waiting 5 minutes to call 911. They wanted him 100% guaranteed dead.
In his calm explanation he softly says, "yes I have a concealed carry." How does a guy who spent time in jail for Tasering someone multiple times qualify for a concealed carry? He apparently has committed other crimes. Not that it would stop him, but he is exactly the kind of person that a background check should screen out from having a concealed permit. OR he was lying to LE and they never bothered to check, which would be totally reprehensible. Zero doubt in my mind that he is the one that shot at TD and BB. Fortunately for BB he was evidently using a weapon that he wasn't as familiar with and missed. Now, can CD and LVD really play dumb that they had no idea AxC was murdering the people around them? The only possible defense I can see for CD is that he claims that he was a victim, seduced by LVD and had no idea that people were being killed. He could say he was blinded by lust and didn't see what was going on. That's what I expect from him. And I expect the FBI to prove otherwise. Certainly can't count on the Chandler LE, wow.

The Chandler LE represents one of the greatest "missed opportunities" in this case. Not following up on the concealed weapon is another nail in Chandler LE coffin (i know...bad use of terms). But the other thing that this situation when Charles was killed brings up to me is this "Family Cox". It is one of my biggest mysteries.... So many of the pieces of information we pick up from this case, just show how casual and easy Lori and Alex can and continue to skirt the law. In the genes.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

What about the non-biz route he also commonly took between AZ and Rexburg, ID?

Yes he travelled quite a bit. "a needle in a haystack" applies to all the zillions of places he could have been with those children.

 

[Tortoise]

They may be able to charge Lori with murder according to your rationale. It is very hard to prove murder without a body in the U.S. - but that being said there is an insane amount of circumstantial evidence, as you have outlined. It is as if she is daring LE for the indictment.

I think 2 elements, now bring Chad to the conspiracy to commit murder in Idaho table:
JJ Disappearance:
Phone call to MG asking her to lie about JJ’s whereabouts.

Attempted Murder of Tammy:
Alleged purchase of ski mask

In Arizona:
Attempted Murder of Brandon:
Lugging tire in storage unit

And, if we are lucky, and they can indict Lori on conspiracy to commit murder for Charles in Arizona, they may be able to include Chad, based on the emails and mission list. IT forensics will be crucial for this.

Also, if there is any evidence anywhere of Chad influencing Alex to commit suicide through influence, he would be an accomplice there, and maybe ZP as well.

Arizona Criminal Code
13-301. Definition of accomplice
View Document

1. Solicits or commands another person to commit the offense; or

2. Aids, counsels, agrees to aid or attempts to aid another person in planning or committing an offense.

3. Provides means or opportunity to another person to commit the offense.

Very good! I bet there is a whole lot more we don't even know about too.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I can't help thinking they've got Lori's charges wrong. I would feel more comfortable if she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder of her children.

Aside from the obstruction and solicitation charges, she is charged with desertion and non-support, and contempt for not producing Tylee and JJ to the authorities. Those charges presume the children are alive, and I expect (as a non-legal person, so I stand to be corrected) there must be an onus on the state to prove life to prove she is deserting, not supporting and capable of producing them. All while there are no signs they are alive.

Imagine if the children are found deceased. Do the charges just fall away and she becomes entitled to automatic release?

Finding their bodies is still not going to prove who killed them. Even her DNA on them, as their mother, can be explained. DNA doesn't even last that long anyway and especially with decomposition.

I might be in the minority here but I think conspiracy to commit murder is the right charge - it doesn't require proof of who committed the murder, it has no less responsibility than the physical act of murder, and I think it can be proved by the following facts -

1. not supporting them financially or emotionally or in any way. not delegating that responsibility to anyone else, after the dates they were last seen.
2. no proof or signs of life. without means or ability to self-maintain. Tylee's Jeep not missing, bank not used, JJ's medication not used.
3. not producing them to authorities or producing proof of life, even when jailed = consciousness of death.
4. lying about their whereabouts to - police, SB, nanny. pretending to be Tylee in texts to Colby and Tylee's friend = consciousness of guilt.
5. getting rid of Bailey - Lori's premeditation.
6. lying about BYU - Lori's premeditation. Tylee was going to stay in AZ and had not enrolled.
7. disappearing weeks apart - means Tylee did not take JJ (nanny is proof Tylee was gone) (removing JJ from school = foreknowledge)
8. no one else responsible (ie Alex) because Lori never reported it, on either occasion. plus she lied that they were elsewhere when she knew where Alex was.
9. not maintaining contact with them.
10. abandoning their belongings for the storage company to dispose of. abandoning their home so that the children had no family home to return to. moving around because she knew the children would not be trying to find her.

MOO

i hope our fine lawyers chime in here. We know that the prosecution must provide discovery to the defense. Maybe, with that charge, they would be giving up too much information. I keep thinking we are going to see a "step ladder" series of charges...getting her caught in obvious lies that gives them more to build the next step. But my thoughts just feel so hypothetical... I can't wait for the trial to begin, and our lawyers will be able to tell us what is really going on.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I absolutely agree. I have felt conspiracy casts the widest net to get not just Lori, but all of them. I am quoting myself here from Thread 27, page 51: ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #27

Snip:
Source:What Do the Courts Consider in a Conspiracy Case? - FindLaw
A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. A person may be convicted of conspiracy even if the actual crime was never committed.

thanks...helps to better understand conspiracy...

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I think I figured out where Alex worked and what his route was. If you listen to the body cam audio of Alex being transported to the police station after shooting Charles, beginning at 36:43 a discussion of where Alex works, the type of truck he drives and the materials he hauls takes place. From my listening, I take away the following:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2838108179561709

1. He hauls hazardous waste from Arizona to Arkansas. It takes 4 days per load. He hauls plant liquids and solvents.
2. He picks up materials in Coolidge, AZ and drops them off in Benton, Arkansas.
3. This company has locations in Coolidge, AZ and in Benton, AR.

I feel certain that LE has spent signifcant time with HES.... They probably have a great travel history to provide the FBI.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Dbm

Please dont reply. I have asked for deletion

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I don't see her getting out of jail anytime soon. MOO Even if she made bail in Idaho. Or even if she does produce the kids. I think Arizona could be right there waiting to pick her up on charges there. At least I hope they would/could. I wonder if she will face charges in California for taking money from that account? Is that a felony there? It would be in my state.

Also my opinion. I can't see an insanity plea in this. She went for a evaluation and walked out. How would they defend that?

Once again all my own opinions.

reminder: no insanity plea possible in Idaho.