Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #30

[Nurse Gen]

DBM

 

[Nurse Gen]

It is hard to say. We don’t know how often Alex drove what is known as the Mormon Corridor prior to August 2019.

From Wikipedia(BBM)

Beginning in Utah, the corridor extends northward through western Wyoming and eastern Idaho to Yellowstone National Park. It reaches south to San Bernardino, California on the west and through Tucson, Arizona on the east, reaches west to the Jordan Valley, Oregon area extending southward to Eldorado, Texas, and finally the U.S.-Mexico border. Settlements in Utah, south of the Wasatch Front, stretched from St. George in the southwest to Nephi in the northeast, including the Sevier River valley. The corridor is roughly congruent with the area between present-day Interstate 15 and U.S. Route 89. Outside of the Wasatch Front, and Utah's Cache Valley, most of the population of the state resides in this corridor.

I know I can't get OT with this, but learning about the culture and geography of "The Mormon Corridor" has been integral to my ability to sleuth this case. It's also been fascinating and fun. I did not know that I would like it so much, and I live at the edge of the "Morridor" in NW San Diego county but had never heard anything about it until WS♡

 

[Nurse Gen]

I'm not sure how much stock to put into LVD's ring other than the premeditation.
Did a search for "Malachite" to see what would come up though, got this kind of thing in many different styles of wording:

"Known as the stone of transformation, the Malachite crystal helps bring energy and focus to new growth while pruning off the brambles holding you back."

It could be argued that starting a new marriage might fit that description.
In this case however, seems pruning off the brambles would be murdering children and spouses.

Malachite poisoning?
"After a couple of hours I also noticed that I was becoming short of breath, rather 'chesty', coughing and my nose was running. .. I have since checked the Internet and found that there has been other cases of Malachite or Copper sulphate poisoning"

Copper Sulfate
"There have been reports of human suicide resulting from the ingestion of gram quantities of this material"[/QUOTE

 

[fuzzybutter]

I can't help thinking they've got Lori's charges wrong. I would feel more comfortable if she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder of her children.

Aside from the obstruction and solicitation charges, she is charged with desertion and non-support, and contempt for not producing Tylee and JJ to the authorities. Those charges presume the children are alive, and I expect (as a non-legal person, so I stand to be corrected) there must be an onus on the state to prove life to prove she is deserting, not supporting and capable of producing them. All while there are no signs they are alive.

Imagine if the children are found deceased. Do the charges just fall away and she becomes entitled to automatic release?

Finding their bodies is still not going to prove who killed them. Even her DNA on them, as their mother, can be explained. DNA doesn't even last that long anyway and especially with decomposition.

I might be in the minority here but I think conspiracy to commit murder is the right charge - it doesn't require proof of who committed the murder, it has no less responsibility than the physical act of murder, and I think it can be proved by the following facts -

1. not supporting them financially or emotionally or in any way. not delegating that responsibility to anyone else, after the dates they were last seen.
2. no proof or signs of life. without means or ability to self-maintain. Tylee's Jeep not missing, bank not used, JJ's medication not used.
3. not producing them to authorities or producing proof of life, even when jailed = consciousness of death.
4. lying about their whereabouts to - police, SB, nanny. pretending to be Tylee in texts to Colby and Tylee's friend = consciousness of guilt.
5. getting rid of Bailey - Lori's premeditation.
6. lying about BYU - Lori's premeditation. Tylee was going to stay in AZ and had not enrolled.
7. disappearing weeks apart - means Tylee did not take JJ (nanny is proof Tylee was gone) (removing JJ from school = foreknowledge)
8. no one else responsible (ie Alex) because Lori never reported it, on either occasion. plus she lied that they were elsewhere when she knew where Alex was.
9. not maintaining contact with them.
10. abandoning their belongings for the storage company to dispose of. abandoning their home so that the children had no family home to return to. moving around because she knew the children would not be trying to find her.

MOO

You raise great points. A couple of comments, with the usual statements I am not a lawyer and anything I say is MOO.
If the children are found deceased she will not be immediately released. I am pretty sure a judge or at least a DA would have to approve her release. I am unsure since trial hasn’t started. I think that the DA’s office has additional charges already prepared in their arsenal, covering all sorts of contingencies including finding deceased kids. So although current charges could be dismissed there are many other charges ready to go.

I think her current charges are based on what evidence they had at the time. They wanted to arrest her and get her into custody. I don’t think the LE agencies still collecting evidence view her current charges as the end. I am guessing they may be going for a murder charge. Convicting someone of murder without a body is difficult, but it has been done. The FBI doesn’t spend this much time on child custody cases for live children.

 

[Anonymom]

“I think her current charges are based on what evidence they had at the time. They wanted to arrest her and get her into custody.”

Not sure I am quoting you correctly, so forgive a newbie try. I also think that they charged her the way they did to help facilitate actually finding the kids. There may be some associates of LVD who are appalled at her attitude about the missing kids and will be more willing to talk to LE.

 

[TexieLouWho21]

I don't see her getting out of jail anytime soon. MOO Even if she made bail in Idaho. Or even if she does produce the kids. I think Arizona could be right there waiting to pick her up on charges there. At least I hope they would/could. I wonder if she will face charges in California for taking money from that account? Is that a felony there? It would be in my state.

Also my opinion. I can't see an insanity plea in this. She went for a evaluation and walked out. How would they defend that?

Once again all my own opinions.

 

[indicolite22]

I can't help thinking they've got Lori's charges wrong. I would feel more comfortable if she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder of her children.

Aside from the obstruction and solicitation charges, she is charged with desertion and non-support, and contempt for not producing Tylee and JJ to the authorities. Those charges presume the children are alive, and I expect (as a non-legal person, so I stand to be corrected) there must be an onus on the state to prove life to prove she is deserting, not supporting and capable of producing them. All while there are no signs they are alive.

Imagine if the children are found deceased. Do the charges just fall away and she becomes entitled to automatic release?

Finding their bodies is still not going to prove who killed them. Even her DNA on them, as their mother, can be explained. DNA doesn't even last that long anyway and especially with decomposition.

I might be in the minority here but I think conspiracy to commit murder is the right charge - it doesn't require proof of who committed the murder, it has no less responsibility than the physical act of murder, and I think it can be proved by the following facts -

1. not supporting them financially or emotionally or in any way. not delegating that responsibility to anyone else, after the dates they were last seen.
2. no proof or signs of life. without means or ability to self-maintain. Tylee's Jeep not missing, bank not used, JJ's medication not used.
3. not producing them to authorities or producing proof of life, even when jailed = consciousness of death.
4. lying about their whereabouts to - police, SB, nanny. pretending to be Tylee in texts to Colby and Tylee's friend = consciousness of guilt.
5. getting rid of Bailey - Lori's premeditation.
6. lying about BYU - Lori's premeditation. Tylee was going to stay in AZ and had not enrolled.
7. disappearing weeks apart - means Tylee did not take JJ (nanny is proof Tylee was gone) (removing JJ from school = foreknowledge)
8. no one else responsible (ie Alex) because Lori never reported it, on either occasion. plus she lied that they were elsewhere when she knew where Alex was.
9. not maintaining contact with them.
10. abandoning their belongings for the storage company to dispose of. abandoning their home so that the children had no family home to return to. moving around because she knew the children would not be trying to find her.

MOO

We don't know the method of the kids' disappearance. Absence of evidence of life likely isn't sufficient evidence of absence of life in court. IMO, unless LE has sufficient proof that 1) the children are dead and 2) that she did/planned it, they can't get her for murder.

 

[TexieLouWho21]

Since AxC had a record. I looked up Arizona conceal carry laws.

Arizona Concealed Carry Gun Laws & CWP | USCCA CCW Reciprocity Map

OPEN CARRY PERMITTED?
Is open carry permitted in Arizona?

Yes, without a permit. Any person who is at least 18 years old and legally entitled to carry a firearm can open carry.

So anyone over the age of 18 can carry a gun. Did AxC have a felony? When he attacked JR it was 2 degree aggravated assault. He served 90 days in jail. That was carried out with a stun gun.

CHEMICAL SPRAY/PEPPER SPRAY?
Is it legal to buy or use chemical spray/pepper spray in Arizona?

Yes. There is no statute prohibiting the purchase or use of pepper spray in Arizona.

Didn't I read one reason that Tylee had a baseball bat was for protection? Because she wasn't old enough for pepper spray?

Arizona also has Castle Law

Arizona is a Castle Doctrine state and state laws effectively allow people to stand their ground. There is no duty to retreat before defending yourself in Arizona.

 

[VeryVeritas]

You raise great points. A couple of comments, with the usual statements I am not a lawyer and anything I say is MOO.
If the children are found deceased she will not be immediately released. I am pretty sure a judge or at least a DA would have to approve her release. I am unsure since trial hasn’t started. I think that the DA’s office has additional charges already prepared in their arsenal, covering all sorts of contingencies including finding deceased kids. So although current charges could be dismissed there are many other charges ready to go.

I think her current charges are based on what evidence they had at the time. They wanted to arrest her and get her into custody. I don’t think the LE agencies still collecting evidence view her current charges as the end. I am guessing they may be going for a murder charge. Convicting someone of murder without a body is difficult, but it has been done. The FBI doesn’t spend this much time on child custody cases for live children.

At this point it will be amazing if a body or even a part is recovered. The murder and conspiracies to commit murder of the children would be built on circumstantial evidence, and that has to be airtight. It could very well be that AxC is the only one that knew what happened to the bodies. I'm a bit concerned that CD may try to pretend he was a victim, rather than a participant. Did he know LVD's previous 2 husbands were dead and that AxC had just killed the last one? I think he had to have known, and it didn't slow him down a bit. He knew LVD had Children, and he had to know they disappeared. So if he didn't question any of that, he looks like a co-conspirator. His wife gets shot at and he doesnt do anything? Then she mysteriously dies and he instantly gets over it. His behavior is not that of an innocent person, even if he was being played.
So the question is how much was he involved and what is the proof. Since he spent a lot of time as a gravedigger did he perhaps have access to a crematory?
What condition would cause him to be so delusional that getting married 2 weeks after his healthy wife's death was a good idea? He couldn't see or didn't care a bit how that looks. Right away he told TD's parents that he wouldn't see them again. The abrupt, cold disconnect, tells me something is missing in there, like empathy and emotions. The planning of the trips to Kauai and wedding before TD was deceased, should prove he knew TD was going to be murdered.

 

[VeryVeritas]

“I think her current charges are based on what evidence they had at the time. They wanted to arrest her and get her into custody.”

Not sure I am quoting you correctly, so forgive a newbie try. I also think that they charged her the way they did to help facilitate actually finding the kids. There may be some associates of LVD who are appalled at her attitude about the missing kids and will be more willing to talk to LE.

Really? They sure are taking their time to come forward. And who in their right mind would associate with CD or LVD?

 

[TexieLouWho21]

At this point it will be amazing if a body or even a part is recovered. The murder and conspiracies to commit murder of the children would be built on circumstantial evidence, and that has to be airtight. It could very well be that AxC is the only one that knew what happened to the bodies. I'm a bit concerned that CD may try to pretend he was a victim, rather than a participant. Did he know LVD's previous 2 husbands were dead and that AxC had just killed the last one? I think he had to have known, and it didn't slow him down a bit. He knew LVD had Children, and he had to know they disappeared. So if he didn't question any of that, he looks like a co-conspirator. His wife gets shot at and he doesnt do anything? Then she mysteriously dies and he instantly gets over it. His behavior is not that of an innocent person, even if he was being played.
So the question is how much was he involved and what is the proof. Since he spent a lot of time as a gravedigger did he perhaps have access to a crematory?
What condition would cause him to be so delusional that getting married 2 weeks after his healthy wife's death was a good idea? He couldn't see or didn't care a bit how that looks. Right away he told TD's parents that he wouldn't see them again. The abrupt, cold disconnect, tells me something is missing in there, like empathy and emotions. The planning of the trips to Kauai and wedding before TD was deceased, should prove he knew TD was going to be murdered.

I agree with this 100%. I'm waiting to see if he can weasel his way out. Since he was at home, with TD, when she passed away. If they find anything with the autopsy.

 

[Tortoise]

I absolutely agree. I have felt conspiracy casts the widest net to get not just Lori, but all of them. I am quoting myself here from Thread 27, page 51: ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #27

Snip:
Source:What Do the Courts Consider in a Conspiracy Case? - FindLaw
A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. A person may be convicted of conspiracy even if the actual crime was never committed.

Thanks. So, conspiracy requires two or more people, and probably isn't the right charge for the children, if they can't prove a specific or any other second person was involved.

I think (moo) the charge should be murder then, which doesn't require physical presence; as their mother and the person the children were in the care of and with knowledge she was not caring for them and nobody else was, and - to be proven by actions already listed - knowledge of their deaths, and hiding their deaths, and the hiding of them two weeks apart adding to strong presumption that the deaths were not accidental or natural, being a principal as defined here:

Idaho Code 18-204 – Principals Defined
All persons concerned in the commission of a crime, whether it be felony or misdemeanor, and whether they directly commit the act constituting the offense or aid and abet in its commission, or, not being present, have advised and encouraged its commission, or who, by fraud, contrivance, or force, occasion the intoxication of another for the purpose of causing him to commit any crime, or who, by threats, menaces, command or coercion, compel another to commit any crime, are principals in any crime so committed.
» Idaho Code 18-204 – Principals DefinedLawServer

MOO

 

[VeryVeritas]

Since AxC had a record. I looked up Arizona conceal carry laws.

Arizona Concealed Carry Gun Laws & CWP | USCCA CCW Reciprocity Map

OPEN CARRY PERMITTED?
Is open carry permitted in Arizona?

Yes, without a permit. Any person who is at least 18 years old and legally entitled to carry a firearm can open carry.

So anyone over the age of 18 can carry a gun. Did AxC have a felony? When he attacked JR it was 2 degree aggravated assault. He served 90 days in jail. That was carried out with a stun gun.

CHEMICAL SPRAY/PEPPER SPRAY?
Is it legal to buy or use chemical spray/pepper spray in Arizona?

Yes. There is no statute prohibiting the purchase or use of pepper spray in Arizona.

Didn't I read one reason that Tylee had a baseball bat was for protection? Because she wasn't old enough for pepper spray?

Arizona also has Castle Law

Arizona is a Castle Doctrine state and state laws effectively allow people to stand their ground. There is no duty to retreat before defending yourself in Arizona.

Whose "ground" was it? As far as I can tell CV had more right to be there than AxC. If you have time to leave a dispute go get a gun, then come back blasting at an unarmed person, you could just have easily called 911. At the sane time LVD had CV's phone in her hands, she could have called 911. They wanted him dead, showed zero remorse, and LVD called quickly to collect the life insurance. At no time in the LE reports did I hear anyone say that CV was told to leave or they felt their life was in danger. Technically you might get away (as AxC did) with murder when you could have easily avoided it.
So if you want your spouse murdered, all you have to do is stage a situation with a 3rd party to shoot or stab them to death. Because AxC was so calm, he surely knew the law well. Laws like that are intended for law abiding people to have the right to defend themselves, not to use it as a loophole for murder. Investigators should have brains enough to figure out which it is.

 

[VeryVeritas]

We don't know the method of the kids' disappearance. Absence of evidence of life likely isn't sufficient evidence of absence of life in court. IMO, unless LE has sufficient proof that 1) the children are dead and 2) that she did/planned it, they can't get her for murder.

Show a case where a parent was last to be with a child, the child vanishes, the parent doesnt report it, and the child is not presumed dead.

 

[TexieLouWho21]

Whose "ground" was it? As far as I can tell CV had more right to be there than AxC. If you have time to leave a dispute go get a gun, then come back blasting at an unarmed person, you could just have easily called 911. At the sane time LVD had CV's phone in her hands, she could have called 911. They wanted him dead, showed zero remorse, and LVD called quickly to collect the life insurance. At no time in the LE reports did I hear anyone say that CV was told to leave or they felt their life was in danger. Technically you might get away (as AxC did) with murder when you could have easily avoided it.
So if you want your spouse murdered, all you have to do is stage a situation with a 3rd party to shoot or stab them to death. Because AxC was so calm, he surely knew the law well. Laws like that are intended for law abiding people to have the right to defend themselves, not to use it as a loophole for murder. Investigators should have brains enough to figure out which it is.

IMO I agree. They set him up. There was question earlier in the thread about AxC legally having a gun. So I threw in the Castle Law. I think that's why AxC was there. She knew CV was coming over that morning. I definitely see it as a set up. Lori knew CV was coming over. She even left and drove his rental car. The whole thing just screams set up to me. Seems like poor Tylee was caught in the middle.

 

[Tortoise]

We don't know the method of the kids' disappearance. Absence of evidence of life likely isn't sufficient evidence of absence of life in court. IMO, unless LE has sufficient proof that 1) the children are dead and 2) that she did/planned it, they can't get her for murder.

I don't agree but it is interesting to see what evidence different people require before they would comfortably convict.

On the above view, murderers who have a good method of body disposal, and with no reports to authorities that the cared for minors and vulnerable persons are missing, would always get away with it. She knows her responsibilities are always present because she gave (false) accounts to various people of where they were, college and with MG watching the movie Frozen 2. There is no chance of a wrongful conviction imo, because the justice system allows her professional representation to defend herself, and she can say what happened to them and prove they are alive, and walk away a free woman.

moo

 

[Tortoise]

Also my opinion. I can't see an insanity plea in this. She went for a evaluation and walked out. How would they defend that?

Once again all my own opinions.

rsbm to address insanity in Idaho -


Idaho Code 18-207 – Mental Condition Not a Defense — Provision for Treatment During Incarceration — Reception of Evidence — Notice and Appointment of Expert Examiners
Current as of: 2018 | Check for updates | Other versions
(1) Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct.
(2) If by the provisions of section 19-2523, Idaho Code, the court finds that one convicted of crime suffers from any mental condition requiring treatment, such person shall be committed to the board of correction or such city or county official as provided by law for placement in an appropriate facility for treatment, having regard for such conditions of security as the case may require. In the event a sentence of incarceration has been imposed, the defendant shall receive treatment in a facility which provides for incarceration or less restrictive confinement. In the event that a course of treatment thus commenced shall be concluded prior to the expiration of the sentence imposed, the offender shall remain liable for the remainder of such sentence, but shall have credit for time incarcerated for treatment.

» Idaho Code 18-207 – Mental Condition Not a Defense — Provision for Treatment During Incarceration — Reception of Evidence — Notice and Appointment of Expert ExaminersLawServer

 

[Tortoise]

Is it usual in the US to register as a patient with a general medical practitioner after moving to a new town? And they request the medical history be transferred?

 

[indicolite22]

Show a case where a parent was last to be with a child, the child vanishes, the parent doesnt report it, and the child is not presumed dead.

Minnesota sisters whose mother was convicted of hiding them for over 2 years readjusting well, father says

To be clear, I believe that in all likelihood Lori harmed her kids. Proving it in court beyond a reasonable doubt (with all other rational scenarios deemed impossible) is another matter.

If the children disappeared from somewhere where longterm survival wasn't possible (e.g. middle of an ocean or a desert), then I would understand the presumption of death. Since we don't know where they disappeared from, it can't be completely excluded that they were handed over (like in the above case) or sold to someone.

 

[indicolite22]

I don't agree but it is interesting to see what evidence different people require before they would comfortably convict.

On the above view, murderers who have a good method of body disposal, and with no reports to authorities that the cared for minors and vulnerable persons are missing, would always get away with it. She knows her responsibilities are always present because she gave (false) accounts to various people of where they were, college and with MG watching the movie Frozen 2. There is no chance of a wrongful conviction imo, because the justice system allows her professional representation to defend herself, and she can say what happened to them and prove they are alive, and walk away a free woman.

moo

Even if she didn't kill them she could still give all those false accounts if she didn't want them to be found.
Murderers do get away with it due to insufficient evidence from time to time. Sometimes they get caught years later when enough evidence emerges. There have been other cases where vulnerable people weren't reported missing on time. Evidence of foul play could be long gone by the time their disappearance is recorded. I hope this is not the case here and that the police have more.