Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #33

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I'm confused. The preliminary hearing is basically a hearing to see if the prosecutor can present sufficient evidence that a) a crime has been committed and b) the defendant committed the crime. It only applies to the sole felony, not the misdemeanor charges.

So, where we are right now is that the courts have NOT determined there is sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed and further that Lori likely committed any crime. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt the court will make that determination. But these things have to follow a strict process. As of today Lori is presumed innocent and no evidence has been presented against her by a prosecutor. The only evidence that a court has seen against her is the statements of a police officer. That is enough to get an arrest warrant but not nearly enough to charge a felony absent objective corroboration.

So it seems out of place to me for the prosecutor to be initiating discovery for the exact same reason that the prosecutor challenged Mean's subpoenas because they were effectively demanding discovery before there was a preliminary hearing to establish probably cause. Their own document describes itself as a discovery request.

There is a statement lawyers sometime use: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." I personal think this is an unrecognized logical falacy in the modern scientific world. In science we rely heavily on testing for absence to draw conclusions. If you are tested for a disease and test negative, a lawyer could make that argument but would be fundamentally wrong. Yet this line of thinking is still taught in law schools.

If you read the police application for the arrest warrant it is based almost entirely on absense of evidence - there is no evidence the kids have been seen since September, no evidence Lori has provided support, no evidence anyone has them... A lazy police officer out to get Lori could have simply overlooked exculpatory evidence and went to court to make those sworn statements truthfully.

The bar is MUCH higher at a preliminary hearing. I'm sure she will be bound over for trial but it's far from a slam dunk if all the prosecutor has is absence of evidence. I think that his demand for discovery right now is because he wants to be able to cut off any possible defenses now. But that is beyond his right. If Means complies with that order I think it will constitute reversible error. Lori does not have to reveal her defense stratgy until the trial, except possibly under Idaho rules if she plans to claim mental illness.
It would be helpful to have an attorney weigh in on this, but I wonder whether the prosecution expects that the defense will advance an affirmative defense of some kind, which I believe they must disclose now.

Examples of affirmative defenses are insanity, self-defense, duress, or necessity (hiding the kids from a threat of some kind that would somehow also explain lying to LE), or some kind of lack of jurisdiction (as, for example, if LE had no valid cause for the welfare check or if the way LE learned the address at which they checked for the kids whereabouts was illegally determined or involved LE that had no jurisdiction there). I don’t know much about how this works at this point, but I believe the defense has to meet some standard of proof to advance such an affirmative defense at this point, but it is lower than beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
So it seems out of place to me for the prosecutor to be initiating discovery for the exact same reason that the prosecutor challenged Mean's subpoenas because they were effectively demanding discovery before there was a preliminary hearing to establish probably cause. Their own document describes itself as a discovery request.
RSBM

My understanding is that the prosecutor challenged Mean's subpoenas for many reasons, but not the reason you have stated.

To the extent he had not already complied, he challenged Means' requests for reasons including -

not being in possession of said electronic devices,
not having requested items in his custody or control
being outside the scope of the ICRs
not being addressed to the correct investigative agency,
having no duty or legal requirement to fulfill,
not being subject to disclosure,
collecting evidence for the defense
being irrelevant to the case, and any possible defense
matters already litigated.


The bar is MUCH higher at a preliminary hearing. I'm sure she will be bound over for trial but it's far from a slam dunk if all the prosecutor has is absence of evidence. I think that his demand for discovery right now is because he wants to be able to cut off any possible defenses now. But that is beyond his right. If Means complies with that order I think it will constitute reversible error. Lori does not have to reveal her defense stratgy until the trial, except possibly under Idaho rules if she plans to claim mental illness.
All MOO - The case is about more than the absence of children. It is about a deriliction of parental duty to provide care, education and support. If those actions are not evident (are absent) in her daily life as observed over an extended period, as their only surviving legal parent, then that is evidence in and of itself, it's not an absence of evidence in the sense I think you are using the phrase. She has the opportunity to prove the state is wrong if they are wrong. Inferences can be drawn from her behavior and documents she had in her possession, as well as items she systematically confiscated from the children. If she believed Tylee could be tracked through her phone (the latest BS) then she also thought that she herself could be tracked by carrying and using the same phone, and JJ's apple devices. So why flee with them?

In addition to that there is other strong evidence, imo. If she and Chad told his parents and Tammy's relatives (as the state avers) that Lori has no minor children, and I believe to at least one person that Tylee had died years before, as a married couple it can be inferred that they intended to have a future relationship with Chad's parents, and the import from this is that she was not going to produce children or a child that she formerly said was deceased, at some point into the future.

Then there are other pieces of evidence from the people closest to Lori; statements that show Melani never thought the children were safe. What sort of strategy is that for your niece to hide her knowledge that the children are safely hidden and instead tell people they might be dead at their uncle's hand?; and Lori's attempts to get MG, who she thought could be entrusted not to cooperate with police, to lie to police - without MG apparently knowing of any good reason to lie and assist her.

MOO
 
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The prosecutors request for books, docs and psych tests indicates they know Means might use them. Asking for a witness list and the rest is pretty standard. Each side usually reveals their experts, resumes and reports without having to file a motion for discovery. Reading between the lines its possible Means might not be fully cooperating in this regard. Considering his courtroom antics it wouldn’t be a surprise he was operating on the edge of ethics. There’s no “got ya” when it comes expert witnesses and their reports.

I’m wondering if she’s going to claim Chads books and writings brainwashed her? Maybe claim their influence caused her to (conveniently) forget or she psychologically “checked out” for a period of time due to all those supposed threats? The stress on Lolo was so bad she did ..............? Insert your chosen excuses.

This is going to be what a friend of mine once called a “chaos defense”. Throw any and every thing out there and hope enough sticks to create doubt. It doesn’t even have to be relevant. Assuming this gets to the higher court the judge is going to have his/her hands full. If his bond hearing conduct was any indication Means can taint that jury real quick.

If anyone wants to see the ultimate chaos defense watch the King Richard episode on Netflix “Trial by Media”. The guy was guilty as sin but got off the criminal charges by the craziest defense strategy ever seen. It was a clever tactic and almost comical. He was ultimately guilty in the civil case that followed and found liable for almost 3 billion dollars! It’s an interesting case and perfect example how an irrelevant defense can succeed in criminal court.
 
The prosecutors request for books, docs and psych tests indicates they know Means might use them. Asking for a witness list and the rest is pretty standard. Each side usually reveals their experts, resumes and reports without having to file a motion for discovery. Reading between the lines its possible Means might not be fully cooperating in this regard. Considering his courtroom antics it wouldn’t be a surprise he was operating on the edge of ethics. There’s no “got ya” when it comes expert witnesses and their reports.

I’m wondering if she’s going to claim Chads books and writings brainwashed her? Maybe claim their influence caused her to (conveniently) forget or she psychologically “checked out” for a period of time due to all those supposed threats? The stress on Lolo was so bad she did ..............? Insert your chosen excuses.

This is going to be what a friend of mine once called a “chaos defense”. Throw any and every thing out there and hope enough sticks to create doubt. It doesn’t even have to be relevant. Assuming this gets to the higher court the judge is going to have his/her hands full. If his bond hearing conduct was any indication Means can taint that jury real quick.

If anyone wants to see the ultimate chaos defense watch the King Richard episode on Netflix “Trial by Media”. The guy was guilty as sin but got off the criminal charges by the craziest defense strategy ever seen. It was a clever tactic and almost comical. He was ultimately guilty in the civil case that followed and found liable for almost 3 billion dollars! It’s an interesting case and perfect example how an irrelevant defense can succeed in criminal court.

Some info on "king richard".

The Scrushy Trial
 
It crossed my mind that the prosecutor filed this request for discovery because he knows that Means is inexperienced and unlikely to know what he should be giving the prosecution, so it's to avoid delays when they get to July. That would be extremely unusual though, but then again so is the fact she hired an attorney with no advertized experience of handling a criminal case.

moo
 
It crossed my mind that the prosecutor filed this request for discovery because he knows that Means is inexperienced and unlikely to know what he should be giving the prosecution, so it's to avoid delays when they get to July. That would be extremely unusual though, but then again so is the fact she hired an attorney with no advertized experience of handling a criminal case.

moo

That's a good point. Even the judge recommended he chit chat with some other defense lawyers to figure out what he's supposed to do. Jmo
 
Video of Charles’ warning to police about mom of missing kids:

Good Morning America (@Gma) Tweeted: .@ABC NEWS EXCLUSIVE: New video of late husband’s warning to police about mom of missing kids. @JujuChangABC has more. Idaho mom in missing kids case denied bond reduction
Good Morning America on Twitter
Good Morning America on Twitter

I become more aggravated (to put it mildly) with each release of AZ police reports/videos. It's not just looking back in hindsight... but hindsight certainly makes it all much worse. JMO
 
I'm confused. The preliminary hearing is basically a hearing to see if the prosecutor can present sufficient evidence that a) a crime has been committed and b) the defendant committed the crime. It only applies to the sole felony, not the misdemeanor charges.

So, where we are right now is that the courts have NOT determined there is sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed and further that Lori likely committed any crime. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt the court will make that determination. But these things have to follow a strict process. As of today Lori is presumed innocent and no evidence has been presented against her by a prosecutor. The only evidence that a court has seen against her is the statements of a police officer. That is enough to get an arrest warrant but not nearly enough to charge a felony absent objective corroboration.

So it seems out of place to me for the prosecutor to be initiating discovery for the exact same reason that the prosecutor challenged Mean's subpoenas because they were effectively demanding discovery before there was a preliminary hearing to establish probably cause. Their own document describes itself as a discovery request.
RS&BBM.

I'm not sure I'm following you. Why would a preliminary hearing only be about felony charges and not include misdemeanors? Misdemeanors are a crime too, no? So if "The preliminary hearing is basically a hearing to see if the prosecutor can present sufficient evidence that a) a crime has been committed and b) the defendant committed the crime" then why wouldn't evidence of misdemeanor crimes be allowed?

Secondly, in regards to discovery of the prosecution and defense, no, they are not exactly the same. The prosecution didn't challenge Mr. Means' subpoenas "because they were effectively demanding discovery before there was a preliminary hearing," rather, they were primarily challenging the subpoenas because 1) he was asking for stuff that was irrelevant to this specific case (i.e. he was trying to collect what evidence they have about possible murder charges, when Lori hasn't been charged with murder in this case, and also what evidence they are gathering against Chad when Chad is not currently being charged in this case), 2) he was demanding information that isn't in the possession/jurisdiction of prosecution (i.e. he was asking them to provide evidence that Arizona LE might be gathering for potential charges), 3) he was asking for information that he should be discovering himself - essentially he was trying to get the prosecution to do his job for him, 4) many of his requests were overly broad, vague, and unduly burdensome on prosecution - he was essentially fishing for anything and everything that might come out against his client, now or in the future. I'm sure there's probably other things they challenged Mr. Means on, but I don't see their discovery being exactly the same as his was. JMO.
 
It crossed my mind that the prosecutor filed this request for discovery because he knows that Means is inexperienced and unlikely to know what he should be giving the prosecution, so it's to avoid delays when they get to July. That would be extremely unusual though, but then again so is the fact she hired an attorney with no advertized experience of handling a criminal case.

moo

IMO, at times, it seems as though Means is there just to keep plates spinning in the air while the attorneys in Arizona bear the weight of swaying public opinion in advance of and building a defense to what is likely understood by Lori and her family as the greater threat here.

The missing and endangered children drives the substantial interest of many of us in this case, but not simply because two kids are missing (as bad as that is). Some believe this may be a case of a mother eliminating her kids so she can have an unencumbered life with a new man. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened and, if it is ultimately found that is what happened here, it likely won't be the last.

IMO, in this case there may have been stronger motivation: parties involved - including Lori - may have caused the kids to disappear (whether dead or hidden) to prevent them serving as potential witnesses against the various parties to at least some of the crimes still under investigation - Conspiracy to Commit Murder in the deaths of CV and TD (and possibly JAR) as well as Conspiracy to Commit Attempted Murder in the failed attempts to shoot BB and TD (before her later death "in her sleep").

At or around the time CV was killed, Lori fled the scene with both of these child-witnesses, did not contact police or emergency services to contain dangerous parties or treat injured parties, and later returned to the scene with only one of the child-witnesses (TR), and Lori's demeanor was strange relative to the events that had occurred. Those, by themselves, are suspicious acts and behaviors.

There are elements of the statements to LE given by Lori and TR which don't align with AxC's claims or which don't make sense in light of their other claims (e.g. Why invite CV into the house if he is so mean, nasty, and potentially violent? Why not meet somewhere neutral? Why take and withhold his cellphone from him - potentially escalating his anger - if he is so potentially violent that you invite your brother and his gun to the house in advance of CV's visit? Why do all this risky and potentially escalating provocation with JJ sitting outside in a car waiting to be taken to school?).

JJ has been captured on surveillance in Rexburg dramatically and repetitively uttering words which seem like the kind of words that could have been shouted at him at the time CV was shot. Witnesses at the school/summer camp he attended at the time have been interviewed and we do not know everything they had to say about JJ's behavior or the things he said to them the morning of the killing. What we do know is that JJ wasn't present to speak with LE at the scene or later at the police station and that Lori was the one who'd removed him at that time.

Killing or otherwise eliminating witnesses to prevent their testimony is a "special circumstance" which elevates the crimes to a higher level with more severe penalties.
 
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It crossed my mind that the prosecutor filed this request for discovery because he knows that Means is inexperienced and unlikely to know what he should be giving the prosecution, so it's to avoid delays when they get to July. That would be extremely unusual though, but then again so is the fact she hired an attorney with no advertized experience of handling a criminal case.

moo

Not to worry: he’s getting behind the scenes help.
 
Video of Charles’ warning to police about mom of missing kids:

Good Morning America (@Gma) Tweeted: .@ABC NEWS EXCLUSIVE: New video of late husband’s warning to police about mom of missing kids. @JujuChangABC has more. Idaho mom in missing kids case denied bond reduction
Good Morning America on Twitter
Good Morning America on Twitter
Thanks for sharing! Chads an “Idaho preacher”? I think GMA needs to check some facts. And Mark Means wants all police findings made public?
 
The prosecutors request for books, docs and psych tests indicates they know Means might use them. Asking for a witness list and the rest is pretty standard. Each side usually reveals their experts, resumes and reports without having to file a motion for discovery. Reading between the lines its possible Means might not be fully cooperating in this regard. Considering his courtroom antics it wouldn’t be a surprise he was operating on the edge of ethics. There’s no “got ya” when it comes expert witnesses and their reports.

I’m wondering if she’s going to claim Chads books and writings brainwashed her? Maybe claim their influence caused her to (conveniently) forget or she psychologically “checked out” for a period of time due to all those supposed threats? The stress on Lolo was so bad she did ..............? Insert your chosen excuses.

This is going to be what a friend of mine once called a “chaos defense”. Throw any and every thing out there and hope enough sticks to create doubt. It doesn’t even have to be relevant. Assuming this gets to the higher court the judge is going to have his/her hands full. If his bond hearing conduct was any indication Means can taint that jury real quick.

If anyone wants to see the ultimate chaos defense watch the King Richard episode on Netflix “Trial by Media”. The guy was guilty as sin but got off the criminal charges by the craziest defense strategy ever seen. It was a clever tactic and almost comical. He was ultimately guilty in the civil case that followed and found liable for almost 3 billion dollars! It’s an interesting case and perfect example how an irrelevant defense can succeed in criminal court.

The "Chaos Defense". Interesting.

JMO
I think the prosecution has to be careful too with this case because they inadvertently may cause this case to be more confusing to the jurors than it needs to be. Its going to be hard for the prosecution to summarize this case and not confuse the jurors.

IMO, I think the prosecution fell into that trap during the Casey Anthony trial. I have always felt that when they called some of their experts and went into very long days and days of the detailed analysis from their science experts on some of the testing, they totally lost the jury during some of that. I know for sure they lost me and at the time it was happening, I kept yelling at my TV for them to wrap up that part and get to the point. They had so much testimony about lab tests and other science experts that they lost the message they were trying to get across to the jury.

I dont think that was the sole reason they lost the case but it sure did not help them IMO.
 
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The "Chaos Defense". Interesting.

JMO
I think the prosecution has to be careful too with this case because they inadvertently may cause this case to be more confusing to the jurors than it needs to be. Its going to be hard for the prosecution to summarize this case and not confuse the jurors.

IMO, I think the prosecution fell into that trap during the Casey Anthony trial. I have always felt that when they called some of their experts and went into days and days of the detailed analysis from their science experts on some of the testing, they totally lost the jury during some of that. I know for sure they lost me and at the time it was happening, I kept yelling at my TV for them to wrap up that part and get to the point. They had so much testimony about lab tests and other science experts that they lost the message they were trying to get across to the jury.

I dont think that was the sole reason they lost the case but it sure did not help them IMO.

I agree that the expert testimony must be kept succinct and the prosecutors have to bring the case back to common reason, common sense, big- and overall-picture analysis of the crime. Too much detail and too prolonged expert witness testimony and at least some members of the jury start thinking the whole thing is over their own head and they better rely on some expert to tie it all up for them rather than use their own powers of reasoning and reasonable inference (and IMO, Jose Baez was happy to oblige them in that role in the Casey Anthony trial). I also think having the death penalty overhanging their decision, particularly when the defendant is young and attractive, disinclines at least some jury members from employing their own reasoning and inclines them toward attaching easily to arguments that counter judgments they prefer not to make, even when those arguments are garbage.
 
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