Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #10

[KonaHonu]

I am guessing we will only hear what the court wants us to hear which may be nothing.

The proceedings are sealed. But since the court authorized public release of the existence of the order, I would expect we will at least find out if the children were produced or not.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

@tresir2012 Yes! The Coalition for Responsible Home Education is a group founded and mostly run by homeschool alumni who advocate for more reasonable regulations, trying to strike a balance between keeping homeschooling legal but also keeping homeschooling families accountable to the government and keeping children safe. They also run Homeschooling's Invisible Children, which keeps track of homeschool abuse cases and analyzes them. If you ever see a group in the news called the Home School Legal Defense Association (often abbreviated HSLDA), they are the ones who send lawyers out to every single state in the country to fight for parental rights and squash bills meant to regulate homeschooling. They were just in the news this week in West Virginia fighting *against* a bill that would ban parents/families from homeschooling if they have a CPS abuse/neglect investigation and/or a domestic violence conviction!!!

@Avocado49 I say all this as a homeschool alumni myself! Both my sibling and I had been homeschooled on-and-off since 1991. I love that we can have the freedom to homeschool in this country but I think it's way too far in the extreme when people like Lori and Chad can use the laws to their advantage to hide, abuse, neglect their children. Even if JJ is still alive, it is plain WRONG to hide your child totally away from the world! ESPECIALLY if they need help from the outside world, like JJ's service dog and/or probably special teachers for his school work. Because according to them, he's still being technically homeschooled since he's not registered at a proper school, right? So some random person with no training is supposedly teaching him? Wholly unacceptable, and that could be considered abuse against a disabled person IMO but it's not against the law. A line has to be drawn somewhere!

 

[PJFL]

If this in in reference to what I typed out, it works out to approximately 30 seconds of a nearly 10 minute interview... so between 5 and 6%.

You obviously know the rule, so nope, it isn't you.

 

[tresir2012]

@tresir2012 Yes! The Coalition for Responsible Home Education is a group founded and mostly run by homeschool alumni who advocate for more reasonable regulations, trying to strike a balance between keeping homeschooling legal but also keeping homeschooling families accountable to the government and keeping children safe. They also run Homeschooling's Invisible Children, which keeps track of homeschool abuse cases and analyzes them. If you ever see a group in the news called the Home School Legal Defense Association (often abbreviated HSLDA), they are the ones who send lawyers out to every single state in the country to fight for parental rights and squash bills meant to regulate homeschooling. They were just in the news this week in West Virginia fighting *against* a bill that would ban parents/families from homeschooling if they have a CPS abuse/neglect investigation and/or a domestic violence conviction!!!

@Avocado49 I say all this as a homeschool alumni myself! Both my sibling and I had been homeschooled on-and-off since 1991. I love that we can have the freedom to homeschool in this country but I think it's way too far in the extreme when people like Lori and Chad can use the laws to their advantage to hide, abuse, neglect their children. Even if JJ is still alive, it is plain WRONG to hide your child totally away from the world! ESPECIALLY if they need help from the outside world, like JJ's service dog and/or probably special teachers for his school work. Because according to them, he's still being technically homeschooled since he's not registered at a proper school, right? So some random person with no training is supposedly teaching him? Wholly unacceptable, and that could be considered abuse against a disabled person IMO but it's not against the law. A line has to be drawn somewhere!

One would think a simple rule for homeschooled kids to be taken for an assessment once per term (3 times per year) could take care of that.

 

[tealrose]

Yes, I’m generally a homeschooling advocate but I saw it as even more attentive/responsive parenting, and never dreamed that it would be used to hide or hurt children. I don’t think homeschooling should be allowed in any cases of adoption especially. There are way too many adoptees + homeschooling children who are abused neglected and killed.

It *is* more attentive/responsible parenting. Homeschoolers should not be penalized for those who use it as a shield to commit crimes, any more than the public school system should be penalized for the equivalent despite public schools having such high percentages of neglect victims that most have food pantries and clothing closets!

 

[Keane]

I think it was HNL I was looking at I will check again though. I may have mistyped it in the post. How many terminals does Honolulu have?

Direct flights from / to SLC won't tell the whole story. There are a ton of flights to / from HNL from SFO, LAX, etc. and a bunch from those airports to SLC.

 

[Gardener1850]

Just read back to try to understand this case a little bit. I read through the great timeline that Gardener1850 has on Page 1. Nice job with that.

What I mainly dont understand is if Lori does not produce the kids then why cant LE charge her with kidnapping if she is the legal guardian of those children?

Seems like Kidnapping rather than Contempt charges would be valid charges for her. If she did not tell anyone the very day the kids went missing and started looking for them herself then it points to her being involved somehow with their disappearance.

I sure hope the kids are ok but it doesnt sound good right now with the two adults enjoying themselves in Hawaii and the kids are nowhere to be found and those two did not seem like they cared one bit about the kids being gone. If she is legal guardian then there has to be something more that LE can charge her with like kidnapping.

I realize they can claim the kids ran away or something but that would only hold water as an excuse if she immediately started to raise awareness the day the kids went missing and if she had showed she was actively concerned and looking for them.

I had not read enough to know if she did much of that at the very beginning of when the kids disappeared but it does not sound like she was too worried about them, if at all.

I don't think kidnapping can apply because:

1. Lori is their only legal guardian-- both fathers of the kids are deceased. Police have also said that there is no custody dispute between Lori and anyone else besides the now deceased fathers' former divorce filings which are void (despite rumors that the grandparents wanted custody of JJ before he went missing-- there are no legal filings in existence to back that up, and they would have had an uphill battle to make a case of it before JJ disappeared).

2. Police have said from the beginning that the children are not with Lori and Chad. LE knew that when Lori and Chad left Idaho the children didn't go with them. They didn't even take JJ's toys but left them on the porch of the Rexburg townhouse.

3. It's unknown when exactly both kids disappeared or even how they left the Rexburg townhouse for the last time. Sept 23rd is the last time JJ was seen because he was in school. Lori went to the school without him and unenrolled him the next day. It's unknown when Tylee was last seen other than sometime in Sept-- a neighbor who helped them move into the Rexburg townhouse met Tylee only once, but he didn't give an exact day of when he met her.

4. The kids could have left the townhouse with someone other than Lori. Lori's brother Alex, who is now deceased, might get blamed. If police don't have evidence that the kids left alive with Lori AND that she illegally restrained them somehow, then I think it would be pretty hard to prove a kidnapping case against her. If Lori says she allowed the kids leave with an adult relative then it's not really kidnapping either, unless the adult doesn't bring the kids back when agreed upon or there is evidence he illegally restrained the kids/locked them up somewhere. Lori hasn't made any such claims. She did claim that Tylee died years ago and Chad claimed Lori has no minor children... Both lies of course.

So, with what we know so far, it's pretty hard to see how a case for kidnapping could be made (parental or otherwise).

MOO.

 

[Hatfield]

In what way do you think the offence of kidnapping against Lori Daybell is made out?

That's the part I am struggling with.

What do you actually charge her with?

I was thinking plain old "Kidnapping" could be a valid charge for her if she is legal guardian and cannot prove they are alive and well.

I belive kidnapping involves holding someone against their will and not just the initial act of taking them. So even if she has them safe in a cellar, I believe it can be considered kidnapping if they are held against their will. But going off of memory of other cases so I could be wrong.

I like Tealrose reply too and that may be a better legal angle to pursue.

Ive seen in other cases when LE cannot find the body but pretty much know the person that is responsible for the missing person being gone, they have charged the person with Kidnapping.

I know each case is different and LE would have to have some basis for it of course. But I think the fact she is guardian and cannot produce proof of them being alive may be enough legally for kidnapping. Im not totally sure though. Contempt seems way too lenient of a charge so I hope it is much more than that if she doesnt produce her own children or at least give the court proof of them being alive.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

One would think a simple rule for homeschooled kids to be taken for an assessment once per term (3 times per year) could take care of that.

There's actually good reasons that doesn't necessarily work. Take JJ for example, he is on the autism spectrum, we don't know if tests are a good indicator if he is keeping up with his work or not. We don't know if he's naturally slower at learning or not. And some people homeschool for physical disabilities so they can't actually physically leave their homes.

Nonetheless, there are a handful of states that "require" this but in practice, there is zero follow-up. So despite the law, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of homeschoolers living in "regulated" states still go completely unregulated. That's a big part of the problem too. Maybe of these families contact the HSLDA to help them and they swoop in and are somehow able to get them out of any requirements for government oversight.

It's a complicated issue.

 

[jjenny]

There's actually good reasons that doesn't necessarily work. Take JJ for example, he is on the autism spectrum, we don't know if tests are a good indicator if he is keeping up with his work or not. We don't know if he's naturally slower at learning or not. And some people homeschool for physical disabilities so they can't actually physically leave their homes.

Nonetheless, they are a handful of states that "require" this but in practice, they is zero follow-up. So despite the law, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of homeschoolers living in "regulated" states still go completely unregulated. That's a big part of the problem too. Maybe of these families contact the HSLDA to help them and they swoop in and are somehow able to get them out of any requirements for government oversight.

It's a complicated issue.

Well, in this case, it would appear Lori only claimed she was going to home school him, but since he disappeared after he was last seen in regular school, she presumably didn't actually home schooled him. So the big problem here is, without unrelated people keeping an eye on the child, if child is supposedly home schooled, there is no oversight if he/she goes missing.

 

[Friday Fan]

I am guessing we will only hear what the court wants us to hear which may be nothing.

Yep...

@tresir2012 Yes! The Coalition for Responsible Home Education is a group founded and mostly run by homeschool alumni who advocate for more reasonable regulations, trying to strike a balance between keeping homeschooling legal but also keeping homeschooling families accountable to the government and keeping children safe. They also run Homeschooling's Invisible Children, which keeps track of homeschool abuse cases and analyzes them. If you ever see a group in the news called the Home School Legal Defense Association (often abbreviated HSLDA), they are the ones who send lawyers out to every single state in the country to fight for parental rights and squash bills meant to regulate homeschooling. They were just in the news this week in West Virginia fighting *against* a bill that would ban parents/families from homeschooling if they have a CPS abuse/neglect investigation and/or a domestic violence conviction!!!

@Avocado49 I say all this as a homeschool alumni myself! Both my sibling and I had been homeschooled on-and-off since 1991. I love that we can have the freedom to homeschool in this country but I think it's way too far in the extreme when people like Lori and Chad can use the laws to their advantage to hide, abuse, neglect their children. Even if JJ is still alive, it is plain WRONG to hide your child totally away from the world! ESPECIALLY if they need help from the outside world, like JJ's service dog and/or probably special teachers for his school work. Because according to them, he's still being technically homeschooled since he's not registered at a proper school, right? So some random person with no training is supposedly teaching him? Wholly unacceptable, and that could be considered abuse against a disabled person IMO but it's not against the law. A line has to be drawn somewhere!

I once read a book about a foster mother who was abusing and killed one of the children she adopted. This was in 1965. She wasn't charged until 1987 because the birth mother went looking for the child she gave up for adoption. It is sick and horrifying that Lois Jurgens got away with this for so long.

I hope the prosecutors in Idaho remember this case, although I doubt it.

A Death in White Bear Lake: Notorious crime in city history marks 50 years


Lois Jurgens | Photos | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers




Lois Jurgens - Wikipedia

 

[lonetraveler]

MikeGalanosHLN on Twitter

Between about 5:11 and 5:41 on the video, Nate says:


This pretty clearly indicates that they were given alternative ways to prove the safety of the kids... and chose not to.

Casey Anthony was found guilty of four counts of lying to law enforcement because she lied about where her daughter Caylee was. This case is similar in that Lori lied about where the children were, it seems she could at a minimum, be charged with lying.

 

[KonaHonu]

Direct flights from / to SLC won't tell the whole story. There are a ton of flights to / from HNL from SFO, LAX, etc. and a bunch from those airports to SLC.

Yes. Delta does not have the biggest presence in Hawaii. United is the big one so there is far more flexibility with United. I'm aware SLC is a Delta hub. One option would be HNL-DEN-IDA. Personally I prefer the Denver flight to SFO or LAX because it is a couple hours longer so you get more sleep. Leaving at 9:00 pm tonight they could be in Idaho Falls around 10:00 AM on Thursday.

 

[tresir2012]

Direct flights from / to SLC won't tell the whole story. There are a ton of flights to / from HNL from SFO, LAX, etc. and a bunch from those airports to SLC.

There were only two flights I found at all from Honolulu to Salt Lake and they were not direct but via other airports like SFO or LA. Then there were only two from Kauai another poster found yesterday so I am sure there would be more that were not direct but the travel time would then increase.

 

[Randocalrissian]

I think they likely arranged the rental while they were there in October/November, and shipped some of their personal effects there after packing up in Rexburg, rather than checking large bags. Lori has moved to Hawaii before, and knows the drill. I agree with whomever said they rented furniture. But it's a bit surprising that they didn't simply rent a fully-furnished place, of which plenty are available. Of course, the rent is higher on those.

They've been going about this as if there is no chance they could get in trouble for anything. They weren't on the run. Used their real names, kept their normal appearances (except for Chad's Lori-provided style makeover and weight loss), went to all the places she used to go to.

Does this speak to innocence or arrogance?

IMO it speaks to experience. How much bizarre activity has she lived through with seemingly zero consequences? I suspect she feels untouchable. Let’s hope we quickly find out if that is true.

 

[Hatfield]

I don't think kidnapping can apply because:

1. Lori is their only legal guardian-- both fathers of the kids are deceased. Police have also said that there is no custody dispute between Lori and anyone else besides the now deceased fathers' former divorce filings which are void (despite rumors that the grandparents wanted custody of JJ before he went missing-- there are no legal filings in existence to back that up, and they would have had an uphill battle to make a case of it before JJ disappeared).

2. Police have said from the beginning that the children are not with Lori and Chad. LE knew that when Lori and Chad left Idaho the children didn't go with them. They didn't even take JJ's toys but left them on the porch of the Rexburg townhouse.

3. It's unknown when exactly both kids disappeared or even how they left the Rexburg townhouse for the last time. Sept 23rd is the last time JJ was seen because he was in school. Lori went to the school without him and unenrolled him the next day. It's unknown when Tylee was last seen other than sometime in Sept-- a neighbor who helped them move into the Rexburg townhouse met Tylee only once, but he didn't give an exact day of when he met her.

4. The kids could have left the townhouse with someone other than Lori. Lori's brother Alex, who is now deceased, might get blamed. If police don't have evidence that the kids left alive with Lori AND that she illegally restrained them somehow, then I think it would be pretty hard to prove a kidnapping case against her. If Lori says she allowed the kids leave with an adult relative then it's not really kidnapping either, unless the adult doesn't bring the kids back when agreed upon or there is evidence he illegally restrained the kids/locked them up somewhere. Lori hasn't made any such claims. She did claim that Tylee died years ago and Chad claimed Lori has no minor children... Both lies of course.

So, with what we know so far, it's pretty hard to see how a case for kidnapping could be made (parental or otherwise).

MOO.

Good points.

#3 and #4 are key and I agree that if LE really doesnt have enough proof to know when they actually disappeared then it does make a case of kidnapping difficult.

I think it could become a circumstantial kidnapping case if Lori showed no signs of caring or looking for her children when they first disappeared but that is probably not near enough for LE to pursue that angle.

I like the child custody angle too, that was mentioned. Perhaps Child Services will step in and gain custody of the children and then perhaps more serious charges could be levied against her from that angle. Like interference with child custody agreements when the children are not produced and turned over to CPS.

 

[carbuff]

It depends how you count. The gates are in groups up to G I think and there is also an international terminal and an interisland terminal. But there are really just 2 big terminal buildings. The link below says 3 terminals. Terminal 1 is interisland. The map does not seem it show the international terminal. It's a little confusing to me.
http://terminalmaps.hawaii.gov:8080/hmaps/hnl

I think the three are international, interisland, and mainland. They're all connected

We were just through HNL last fall. We arrived from Australia, cleared customs, and had lunch in that terminal, then walked a LOOOOOONG way to the gates where flights to the mainland were. We passed signs for the interisland terminal on the way. The walk took us outside.

Honolulu connects to many cities on the mainland. We had a nonstop all the way to Boston. So while SLC might be the obvious choice, LV (LD? LVD?) could choose to fly into nearly any city on the west coast and connect from there.

 

[Randocalrissian]

I think if she has not left on today's morning flight there is just the 23.30 flights now to get her there in time IMO. What do others think? Could she still make it if she did not leave till tomorrow morning flight?
Also, if someone else takes them in and she does not appear, does that comply with the court order?

Regarding the money taken from Charles' business account, that was a year ago and I think it likely they went to Hawaii with that money in February 2019 when she was missing for a total of 58 days. So I think that will be already spent. MOO.

I can confirm they are not in the SLC delta sky lounge right now.

 

[jjenny]

Why exactly do people think she is going to show up in Idaho?

 

[tresir2012]

There's actually good reasons that doesn't necessarily work. Take JJ for example, he is on the autism spectrum, we don't know if tests are a good indicator if he is keeping up with his work or not. We don't know if he's naturally slower at learning or not. And some people homeschool for physical disabilities so they can't actually physically leave their homes.

Nonetheless, there are a handful of states that "require" this but in practice, there is zero follow-up. So despite the law, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of homeschoolers living in "regulated" states still go completely unregulated. That's a big part of the problem too. Maybe of these families contact the HSLDA to help them and they swoop in and are somehow able to get them out of any requirements for government oversight.

It's a complicated issue.

An assessment could be physical too to ensure no mistreatment and not just an aptitude test.