I don't have contacts in Hana. GF has 2nd/3rd cousins there but she is not in regular contact, I have numerous contacts on Maui if it turns out they are in Kihei for example. But Hana is pretty remote and a very small community.
Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #16
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Redvines86
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I think Chad and Lori have seriously underestimated the interest in this case all over the United States, and many other countries as well. I don't think they ever thought of this level of fascination as a possibility, and if they thought of Hawaii as a safe haven, I think they will be beyond sorely disappointed. MOO.
True but the ground he was standing on was paid for by CV and with his name on the lease of that ground, not AC's. 2 against one claiming self defense and estranged.
I think you are right. Just an observation I would make is this. When you come to Hawaii as a tourist, you are largely ignored. Everyone understands tourism and most peoples' job depends on it in some way. So much is tolerated and it is a very welcoming place.
If you move to a "rich, haole" development like Princeville among other places you are not living in the real Hawaii. The history of Hawaii is that in the late 1800s, sugar was king and the sugar barons imported workers from Japan, the Phillipines, Puerto Rico, freed American slaves and others. They worked alongside Hawaiians and everyone was pretty much the same. So when you meet someone now their ethnicity hardly matters because everyone has the same basic cultural background as a plantation worker. The single exception is being a "haole" which literally means an outsider (possibly "without breath" which basically means having no soul) but generally is understood to mean a white person.
I'm a haole although I am respectful and have only been called haole in a derogatory sense once and it was after I did something stupid and deserved it. It was an eye-opener though because it made me realize how often people of other ethnicities who might do something stupid, are then singled out because of their race or whatever. Of course I knew that was wrong before but my experience really drove it home. But I digress.
I think the Hawaii that Lori (and maybe Chad) knows is not the real Hawaii where most of us residents live. I think you are right that they are sadly mistaken if they think this is a safe haven. Once they leave the tourist areas, locals are not going to put up with their crap. They are the very definition of "haoles" and they are going to find that out more as more as word spreads.
I would say that Hawaiians are nonviolent. That's essentially true. But historically Hawaiians had a very violent culture. Under the kapu system you would be killed for almost any minor offense, even things like stepping where the king did or women eating with men. Nowadays, yeah, it is all about "aloha." But part of aloha is extricating toxic elements in society and L&C certainly qualify.
If they went to Hana I think they will wake up to a very rude surprise within a couple of days. If they are in the tourist areas of Kaanapali it will take longer and they might be fine.
Onsdag
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You have me confused KH. Aren't you the one who has been stringently defending Lori and Chad's rights to due process and doing things legally by the books? I'm pretty sure I've seen you arguing legalese with a couple other attorneys about what LE and the courts can and can't do against them. And then you throw out posts like this that sound like you favor the locals taking things into their own hands and doing something ill-willed towards them with no consideration of the law or due process. Could you please explain this seemingly contradictory attitude of yours?
SuziQ
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I
Ha! Too true.
Onsdag
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See what I mean? Your very next post you're defending AC's actions saying that the law protects him....
Onsdag
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And the next post after that you sound completely opposite, wanting to rally the "big boys" to give them a "welcoming committee," which sounds rather sinister if you ask me...
Onsdag
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I'm pretty sure the law would disagree with that. In fact there was an incident in Utah fairly recently of a man who owned some property and he went to the property to try evicting the tenants. There was supposedly a struggle and the tenants shot and killed the home owner. They've now been arrested and are facing charges of homicide even though they claim self defense.
Salt Lake landlord shot to death by tenant during tussle over eviction, police say
Funny that!
Not sinister. Just cameras and posters letting them know that here we also want to know where the kids are. Note that I mentioned media not mercenaries. And by big boys I meant that some of the local reporters would love to scoop CNN (the big boys)!
Right. I think attorneys who come here from the mainland would be shocked at how different things are. I have a friend who is a cop here and was a cop on the mainland. He says things are dramatically different. He says it's not a competence thing. He works with good cops. But they have so many restrictions on where they can go and what they can do.
I don't want to be specific because it could give away where I work. Someone cut a fiberoptic transmission line with a pair of common wire cutters. The police and prosecutors did not even investigate. It was explained to us that even though the repair and loss of service cost over $100,000, under Hawaiian law, the perpetrators would have to have actual knowledge they were causing over $1000 worth of damage to be charged with a felony. And cutting a single wire is not something that most people would think would be so costly. The cop actually added that maybe we should not rely on just a few wires...like she gets to decide that...but again. par for the course in Hawaii and traces back to that broken paddle idea.
janewall
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That's how I understood your posts, KH. The less tourism-focused areas such as Hana are a different world from Princeville or Waikiki. As in Rome, when in Maui it helps to know and respect the Mauian way of looking at things – including such things as haoles appearing to flee offenses they committed on the mainland against children, and expecting gracious hospitality from the locals while they try to stymie their pursuers. Who wants that kind of drama imported to their tranquil island village?
IMO few people are less inclined to look at any situation from a perspective not their own than Lori and Chad, so they are likely to to be sadly mistaken about the welcome they are receiving. It's not a question of you or anyone else condoning the local reaction or not – it's simply a matter of being able to recognize reality. L&C have by their own behavior made themselves personae non gratae, and in Hana, unlike some other destinations, people aren't likely to let that slide just because they're injecting some money into the local economy. They're not worth the aggravation, and they're not the kind of people who make the town a more congenial place.
Totally agree.
Sorry. I feel a long late-night vent coming.
J M O..
I'm sure there are plenty of things we don't know and haven't seen about CPD's investigation, but from what we do know and have seen (body cam footage, the ride to the station, and statements) you almost HAVE to question CPD's thoroughness, and maybe even their competence.
I think many of us are confounded as to why CPD seemed to buy the self defense claim so quickly and easily (it is apparent they did so from the videos and statements). There should have been alarm bells and whistles going off in CPD cop's heads from the moment they arrived at the scene. It's baffling.
Consider the following, in totality (individually all of these have probably been discussed in one thread or another):
AC had to take the time (at some point) to go back to his room to get the gun and then return in order to shoot CV. What was CV doing while AC was going to get the gun, - waiting patiently, so he could then resume charging at him with a bat? And why would any man holding only a bat charge at a man holding a gun? That's a head-scratcher..
AC's oscar-worthy performance on the curb was pure BS - touching his head gingerly with two fingertips every 5 seconds while being particularly careful not to knock the sunglasses off his head, No visible blood. Even at the station AC basically admits the injury is no big deal. CV must not have swing a very mean bat. Was there even an injury? A bump? Did a doctor look at it? Did cops take a picture of it? Any other cop would've been expecting AC to suddenly say: "you're on candid camera!"
And the driving cop's accommodating demeanor on the recorded drive to the station was absolutely shameless. Like 2 friends going to a ballgame. And it wasn't even Lori!
Lori's stories don't match. Whether she was outside the house - or inside in the kitchen, she says she didn't see "the shot", that she only heard "the shot", yet she somehow was still able to see CV on the floor on her way out, wait... wasn't she outside? CV said she was outside... He in fact said she and Tylee had already left before the shooting happened. Which is it?
Was Lori fleeing in terror? I guess not if she was willing to send 16 yo Tylee back in to fetch a purse.. "Grab the lipstick off my dresser while you're at"
How'd she know CV was dead anyway, and not just wounded? AC would later start performing CPR (but not for another 10-15 minutes).
Why did Lori return to the scene immediately after the cops arrived? Did she know they were there? Was she driving around the block watching? If she didn't know CV was dead, and the cops hadn't arrived yet, wouldn't it have been dangerous to return to the scene with a 16 yo?
Why didn't LORI call 911?
Why did cops allow Lori to spend 95 percent of her statement (at the scene and at the station) telling her life sob story and only 5 percent talking about the actual shooting? :
"Tylee didn't like CV.. CV was mean.. CV maybe grabbed Tylee's arm... CV never gives enough notice... CV once yelled at JJ.. He's always gone... CV didn't know what it was like to raise a drug baby.. CV's never late.. CV always stays in hotels... CV was enraged... "here we go again" (before even opening the door). On and on and on..
What about the number of gunshots? Over and over and over you hear Lori or the police (especially the police) or Tylee talk about only "the shot". "The gunshot". There's never more than one shot. C'mon CPD! CV was shot TWICE. Cops on the scene had even speculated that there had perhaps been 3-4 shots fired. Why is everyone only asking and talking about ONE shot?
I know. Maybe AC shot CV once while Lori and Tylee were there, then shot him a second time after Lori and Tylee drove off!
Even Tylee's claim about the shot sounding something like a bat being struck on the concrete floor is meant to describe one shot. Why wouldn't she be describing two sounds? For both Lori and Tylee, why was the first shot (or sound) not immediately followed up by a second shot (or sound)? Bang Bang. Why were cops asleep during this discussion?
AC's recorded 911 call - the timing of the call is suspicious, and his subsequent statements about the shooting and aftermath of the shooting don't match the call. And why'd he wait so long to place the call?
Why did AC put the gun back in bedroom? Did he remove any cartridges?
Why didn't they check the hands of AC, Lori and Tylee for gunshot residue?
Did they confiscate AC's gun? Shouldn't it have been taken into evidence and kept until the investigation was complete (which I think would've meant AC wouldn't have had it on 10/2..?).
"CV's phone was on the counter then Lori had CV's phone"? She just "had it"? Then he farted and flew out the window.
AC and CV were "grappling"? They were saying things like: "get off of me" and, "ow"? That sounds more like two 6 yo boys wrestling in the back seat of a car on a long trip.
"Then AC and CV are up and CV is coming at Lori with the bat" So somehow they are just suddenly "up". Is this perhaps when Lori went outside, or into the kitchen? I guess she's still playing keep away?
Is this perhaps when AC went to get the gun? Or had Lori already gone to the bedroom and retrieved the gun, ready to hand it to AC? Questions not asked. Questions not answered (mumble mumble .. I don't know...mumble.. he always has a gun..mumble..Idk.. professional .. it happened fast.. mumble..he was enraged.. mumble .. can't remember..). "Okay. Would you like a cup of coffee"?
Where were the bullets found? Trajectory evidence? How close?
Why did AC clean CV's head? Did AC clean up CV's head before or after he called 911? Not asked?
Why did cops clean up blood? Had they already decided, while still at the scene, to call it self defense?
Why was Lori smiling while casually leaning against the car talking to the cop? Her whole demeanor should have been setting off huge alarms in a police investigator. Yet you get the feeling he's looking for an opportunity to ask her out. Hello? McFly?
Did Lori drive off with CV's phone? Why? Did Lori drive off with CV's wallet? Why?
Did she access the phone? Did cops check the last access? And where is the Micro SD card?
Did cops hear about the pool party?
Did they talk to CV's sons and learn about Lori's intentionally evasive and cavalier texts? Suspicious?
What did they think and do when they heard from the Woodcock's? Suspicious yet?
What did they think and do when they heard from Steve, CV's attorney: "If anything happens to me Lori and Alex did it" Surely suspicious by now.
What did they think and do when they read the withdrawn divorce filing (surely CV's attorney provided it to them)? Bueller? Bueller?
What did they think when they learned of AC's felony assault / tasering of JR, and his threat to kill Lori's former husband? Anybody home?
Did they think it odd that neither Lori, Tylee, or JJ attended CV's funeral?
Did they ask if CV had life insurance?
Did they learn that Lori called the life insurance company even before CV's body was cold?
How could any reasonably intelligent person, after watching and listening to AC sitting on that curb, not be very suspicious of the self defense claim? I think 95 percent of cops in America would've cuffed him on the spot
Then after the initial statements (from the poor interviews), why no follow up interviews? If it was because Lori and AC were soon in the wind, wouldn't that make you even more suspicious?
Why does it appear that there was little follow up investigation at all? Hell, why does it appear that there was little original investigation at all?
Again, I'm sure there are things we don't know, and hindsight is 20-20. And I like cops. But given all of the above, I think many non-LE / outside observers would conclude that CPD in this case was at best easily fooled or at worst, derelict in their duty. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong
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tresir2012
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You cannot look at it like that. 10 decibel increase doubles the sound each time I believe, so the reduction of 21-26 dB would reduce the gunshot sound by approx 25-30% IMO. Then if the front door were closed or open there could be an additional reduction in noise. I believe neighbours thought it was fireworks being let off but I don't have links so this is IMO.
ETA A link re decibels might help. This seems to indicate 26 decibel reduction could reduce the sound of a .45 ACP to the sound of a .22 rifle.
How loud is your gun
From that link -
"How much noise does it make?
So you want to know which cartridge makes the louder bang?
Some technicalities are in order first.
Sound is measured in decibels (db), much like temperature is measured in degrees and speed in miles (or kilometers) per hour. Like most other units, the bottom of the scale or 0 db, is an arbitrary setting, which by convention is set to be the level of the sound that we can bearly hear, or our hearing threshold, as it is normally known.
One difference between the decibel scale and most of the other units we usually use in our everyday life, is the fact that the decibel scale is not linear, but logarithmic. In a linear scale, like velocity, if someone's car is moving at 100 mph, we know that he is moving at twice the speed of someone else who is doing 50 mph, i.e. 2x50 mph is double the velocity of the second car. In logarithmic scales a sound which is only 3 db higher than another, has twice the energy. For example, if you look at the table below, the 9mm Para cartridge at 160 db has twice the sound energy of the .45 ACP cartridge which is measured at 157 db.
Another complication is that the human ear does not hear linearly either. Although loudness is subjective, most people perceive one sound to be twice as loud as another, when there is a 10-fold increase in energy, or a difference of about 10 db. So a 60 db sound sounds twice as loud as a 50 db one, although there is 10 times more energy in it. Also, it is interesting to note that most people cann ot discern any difference in perceived loudness of less than 3 db. That means that the energy in the sound has to double, before someone can notice any difference.
After this technical jargon, here is a table of loudness.
db Environmental noise
0 Threshold of hearing
10 Normal breathing
20 Rusting leaves
30 Whisper at 30 feet
40 Quiet street
50 Interior home noise
60 Conversation
70 Crowded restaurant
75 Kitchen appliances
80 City traffic
85 Hearing damage possible
90 Lawn mower
100 Chain shaw
120 Threshold of pain
120 Siren
134 .22 LR rifle
140 Jet engine at take-off
150 .410 shotgun
152 .22 LR pistol
153 20 gauge shotgun
155 .223 rifle
155 .25 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
156 .30-.30 rifle
156 .308 rifle
156 .44 Special revolver
157 .22 Magnum pistol
157 .45 ACP pistol
158 .380 ACP pistol
158 .38 Special revolver
159 .30-06
160 9mm Para pistol
163 .41 Magnum revolver
164 .357 Magnum revolver
164 .44 Magnum revolver "
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tresir2012
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Normally all these questions would be addressed at a trial so we will never know as nobody was charged. Presumably that was the prosecutor's decision and 5 months later the shooter is dead, but then they say CV's death is still being investigated. 'Still' indicates they never closed it but I do wonder.
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tresir2012
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Couples who lie together die (dye) together is very apt IMO.
tresir2012
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Couples who lie together die (dye) together is very apt IMO.
What! Garments off day?
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