If someone gave Casey a dead Caylee

[RR0004]

Actually I just read the incident report and it appears he just gagged the 2007 victim. The information is hard to read with all the redactions.


2007 incident report:
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19495772/detail.html

We had discussed this perp in the SODDI thread and the posters here pretty much shredded any idea of his involvement in this case to smitherings. LOL

Yeah, just can't get past the decomp in Casey's car.

OT- your avatar just sent me into the kitchen to retrieve some chocolate!!

 

[Baxter]

i was trying to have posters consider the option casey was handed a dead body or came upon a dead caylee because she herself did not kill her but was left with a dead caylee. not saying someone just left her at caseys doorstep but that she was given her child already dead by someone. now how do you explain that after all the lies ? she may have been afraid someone would hurt her family and her next too. i went to the last hearing - the state atty did not leave much room for other options - so defense needs all the help they can . being there and speaking to the family was very hard to imagine that their daughter was part of the reason their caylee was dead. i would not want to be them

BBM
So you talked to George and Cindy at the last hearing and you feel the defense needs all the helps they can get? I am sorry, but I don't want to help the defense. Casey is guilty and the sooner George and Cindy accept it the better. IMO

 

[littlemisslegal]

after hearing the state attorneys powerful words on dec 15 i do feel the defense is not anywere near the level of how the state attorney is going to build the case. that state atty was so well spoken, the tone of voice , the delivery, the words. yes i do not feel andrea or jose is able to be as compelling. he was fantastic- not a hush in courtroom as he talked of duct tape. i did not have a long talk- i said a few words to george and cindy seperate. the only thing they said to me was thank you. my words were my own private expression . my opinion is jmo- and i bet casey wishes the state attorney was on her side as representative - thats why she said make him stop. she knew he was doing a damm good job for what he was suppose to do. she knew jose and andrea were not as powerful to her defense. if i had to say who was stronger it would be not be defense team! not by a long shot!!

 

[InspectorGadget]

I am trying to follow this line of thinking but where do the following actions by KC fall into place in this scenario?

Why did KC lie about a nanny involvement?

Why did KC lie about the locations that were later disproven:
empty apt at Sawgrass being Nanny residence
apt of Nanny's mother really being nursing home
employment at Universal

Why did KC lie about having spoken to Caylee by phone the day before her arrest?

Why has NOTHING KC told investigators be confirmed as a truth?

Why has Baez repeatedly stated in the media that they will reveal KC's story at trial and it will all make perfect sense to us?

WHY, AFTER 14 MONTHS INCARCERATED, WOULD SHE STILL BE TRYING TO PROTECT A MURDERING SEXUAL OFFENDER BY REMAINING QUIET????? :waitasec:

She wouldn't necessarily know it was a sex offender, she may think it is someone she has crossed.
As for the Zenaida story, maybe she is just expanding on an already existing lie.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Bold by me.

First immediate thought before even finishing your post; where in the above scenario do you propose an innocent Casey would believe her daughter to be, whilst driving around care free for days with "mystery smell"?

She may have thought her mother had taken matters into her own hands and decided to address the whole Caylee situation that morning by skipping work and taking Caylee and hideing her somewhere. Her mother isn't answering her calls that day. Each thinks the other has her.

 

[InspectorGadget]

I thought Casey was at home with Cindy. Caylee had a dip in the pool...but it was too chilly for Casey. Then it was almost bedtime and the girls hung out. Casey's cell pings put her in the area (IIRC) and George and Cindy both said the two of them were home the next morning. Do you think that she killed Caylee in her bedroom...then snuck out?

Cindy would have thought that they were home because Casey's car would have been in the garage when she went to work. In fact she knew they were home because she saw them the previous night. Something would have had to alert her that this was not a day like any other day and that Caylee was not there. Caylee & Casey had gone to bed as usual, her car was there as usual, no red flag.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Very interesting then....did he also use duct tape in the 2007 incident? It sure would have made more sense for the defense to throw this perp against the wall to see if he would stick then!!!

Sorry, I had to check before clarifying this. The incident occurred in 2007 and he wasn't charged until 2009 when he admitted having been in the house

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19492531/detail.html

 

[InspectorGadget]

Actually I just read the incident report and it appears he just gagged the 2007 victim. The information is hard to read with all the redactions.


2007 incident report:
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19495772/detail.html

We had discussed this perp in the SODDI thread and the posters here pretty much shredded any idea of his involvement in this case to smitherings. LOL

My mistake, I agree, a gag, not duct tape, but perhaps he just uses whatever he finds handy?

 

[InspectorGadget]

But for the fact that GA HIMSELF said he saw a LIVE Caylee leave with KC on the morning of the 16th....and KC places HERSELF in handing a LIVE Caylee over to an IMAGINARY nanny....where does this "decomposing body in the trunk" come into play???

Cut and pasted by me from the above post as well :

"To me, the duct tape screams sex offender. Recently in May I believe, a sex offender was charged with a similar offence in the same area - he lived just a few streets away. He had entered a house, taken the toddler (a girl) & bedding from her bed, dressed her in a pair of shorts, placed her in the garage and placed a pair of high heeled shoes next to her. The child woke up and pulled the duct tape off, waking up the parents who chased the offender but didn't catch him. He was later arrested on DNA evidence"

What is the "similar offense"?? Murdering a child and placing her in the trunk of a car?? AND....the defense is already equating "duct tape" with RK's ex wifes "story"....although, if their attack on RK doesn't work for them, they might move on to the "sex offender" scenario. Although...one would think, that would have been the FIRST direction they would have tried to go with, having the other incident you posted being so close to the area.

All IMO...

It could be similar if he took a child out of her bed, with the bedding, put her in the garage, gagged her and used her for his sexual gratification. He has done it before and got away with it. Now he would be more careful, watching the family's habits before he strikes.

I'm just putting this out there as a possibility. I don't think Kronk killed Caylee, he just wanted to get the reward, but his statements are inconsistent and Baez's point is that he should have been investigated.

I am not too familiar with the Sunshine laws but I would assume that the police have looked at the local sex offenders since the body was found, because their suspect was obviously lying. Routine when a child goes missing I would think.

 

[InspectorGadget]

She also doesn't seem too terribly concerned for her parents well-being. Heck, she yelled obscenities at her dad while handing over the gas cans.

According to George, yes. By all accounts she yelled obscenities at him frequently but that doesn't prove she murdered Caylee.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Really? They gave Caylee back to her dead? It would have solved all of her problems-she could have driven to the nearest police station with her dead daughter in her lap and looked foolish but blameless....she would have been free AND people would pity her.

She would have seen that angle in a hot minute and surely would not have tested out spots all over her parents yard to see where to bury the child before dumping her with the family pets when the stench became over powering. JMO

If she drove to the nearest police station with her dead daughter they wouldn't have considered her blameless & foolish, they would have charged her with murder. Same if anyone else took the dead child to the police.

 

[Baxter]

after hearing the state attorneys powerful words on dec 15 i do feel the defense is not anywere near the level of how the state attorney is going to build the case. that state atty was so well spoken, the tone of voice , the delivery, the words. yes i do not feel andrea or jose is able to be as compelling. he was fantastic- not a hush in courtroom as he talked of duct tape. i did not have a long talk- i said a few words to george and cindy seperate. the only thing they said to me was thank you. my words were my own private expression . my opinion is jmo- and i bet casey wishes the state attorney was on her side as representative - thats why she said make him stop. she knew he was doing a damm good job for what he was suppose to do. she knew jose and andrea were not as powerful to her defense. if i had to say who was stronger it would be not be defense team! not by a long shot!!

I am glad the prosecutor, (Ashton) has that kind of effect in a courtroom.
Casey now has an idea of what her trial will be like.

 

[txsvicki]

I don't see how the murder is going to be blamed on anyone else at all, because Casey had her vehicle, it smelled before it was left by that money store, and her cell phone pings don't place her anywhere but at home before heading out to Tony's. She told Jesse that Caylee was there, and Caylee was found in things from the house with duct tape from the house. Casey had been in the trunk numerous times during those 31 days. I still believe she was going to get rid of the car or torch it, but truly ran out of gas or got vapor lock from running it on empty so many times as part of her plot.

 

[seagull65]

I just couldn't imagine ANYONE not calling the police - either in the beginning of the scenario, or, still following your scenario, when she received a dead Caylee. It defies common sense that a person would not call LE. I guess, maybe, if she was mixed up with a Tony Soprano type of truly vicious murdering drug dealers or mafia, MAYBE, but that's so far fetched and nothing has been shown to point to anything like that being the case.

I know what you mean, no normal person discovering their child's body already decomposing in their trunk, or finding them missing, or whatever the case might be, would not call the police. But I'm really not so sure about Casey's grasp on reality, to be honest. She seemed like she could be delusional to me in her interviews (or delirious or something). So I'm still reserving judgment on that.

And frankly, regarding drug dealers or m*fia, basically, no one other than Casey was ever investigated. We don't know anything at all about the connections of the people who were around Casey and Caylee. People can assume there's nothing like that in Orlando if they want....
There was even the mention of TL's drug dealer's place being broken into and so on, no investigation of that that we've seen at least.
I mean it could be something as simple as a person who harmed Caylee when they were on drugs or just because they're bad news is from a connected family, for example. Or is just a scary , too scary to rat on. Or could be something completely different from that. The crux for me, too, is why didn't she tell? Mental illness? Drug usage? Trauma/Disbelief? Didn't know how to tell, was afraid she would be blamed? Afraid of the perp? Or was told by the perp no one would believe her since the body had been in her car? Or didn't know Caylee was dead/believed Caylee was going to be returned? I'm still not sure we have all the facts or the big picture in this case. To me there could actually be other explanations that would make every bit as much sense as Casey suddenly wanting to murder her child. Though that's a possibility, too.
Of course if she's unable to tell what happened, doesn't know what happened, or is just unwilling to tell, for instance if she foolishly believes her lawyers are going to be able to get her off without her having to come clean with something she does know, whatever the case might be....what can you do for her then? She'll probably be convicted. Weird case still. I am still on the fence. (Despite all the folks who posted here that no intelligent person could consider any alternative to Casey being the murderer!)

 

[seagull65]

and thanks to Littlemisslegal for starting the thread. Nice to see real discussion of possibilities IMO

 

[seagull65]

Now, who knows, at trial we could be presented with more pages from her diary that clinch the case, or something else we haven't seen, but so far, I'm still a seagull sitting on that fence. My feeling at this point is that I think (but I'm not sure) that Casey knew at least something, I'm not sure of her degree of knowledge or involvement, for example maybe only involved in the disposal of the body. I'm not convinced she's the murderer but also can't rule out that possibility.

 

[RR0004]

Cindy would have thought that they were home because Casey's car would have been in the garage when she went to work. In fact she knew they were home because she saw them the previous night. Something would have had to alert her that this was not a day like any other day and that Caylee was not there. Caylee & Casey had gone to bed as usual, her car was there as usual, no red flag.

I'm confused about your dates. You said the 15th. The 16th she was gone according to George.

 

[RR0004]

According to George, yes. By all accounts she yelled obscenities at him frequently but that doesn't prove she murdered Caylee.

Maybe not...but it also doesn't jive with your theory that she was afraid for her parents.

 

[RR0004]

If she drove to the nearest police station with her dead daughter they wouldn't have considered her blameless & foolish, they would have charged her with murder. Same if anyone else took the dead child to the police.

...and she couldn't give a description of the car (heck, she could have taken a picture of the license plate with her phone) or Caylee's killer? Let's remember that we have to be reasonable here...and I just don't see it.

 

[seagull65]

So many questions remain. For example, if she were the murderer, why keep the body in her trunk long enough for it to decompose, why not dispose of it immediately? (Though it's possible of course.) Why leave the duct tape on Caylee's face? I have a lot of trouble believing she would leave the tape on after the death, if she did it I think she would remove the tape immediately after the death to make the death appear more innocent. And why leave her car in plain view in front of Amscot, you know, and so on? But of course if she's mentally ill or was high or whatever, who knows? ......but also, why kill Caylee at all? It doesn't fit with her and Caylee's history. She knew she could leave Caylee with her parents if she wanted to be rid of her. I can't rule out the possibility of Casey being the murderer, but I also can't ignore these things.
Also, she'd fallen in with a completely new crowd shortly before Caylee died or went missing, lots of new people around her and Caylee. Not only her new friends and their roommates, the whole Fusian crowd, and just all the strangers in the apartment complex and so on.
What if Casey had slept with the wrong guy, somebody with a psycho girlfriend? We've all seen cases in the news of crazy girls viciously attacking girls who slept with their boyfriends, would someone harm a girl's child? I don't know. To me, the taping and style of disposal seems more like, maybe a pedophile or something really, though, or at least like a perpetrator who didn't care at all about making the death look innocent, you know? In fact more like someone who left the tape on almost as a display.

As far as Casey not reporting Caylee missing or hurt or dead, I always wondered if another possibility was (and I know some of us have discussed it before) what if Caylee had injuries that Casey knew about, but couldn't face her parents with. For example, what if she had a cigarette burn or knocked out tooth, something Casey wouldn't be able to hide or explain. I know many of us have discussed in the past, would Casey be able to admit to her parents if a boyfriend or associate had done something bad to Caylee? Or if even a stranger had done anything bad to Caylee when Casey had not been supervising closely enough? I know there are some people immature or unstable enough that they will actually panic and commit a worse crime to cover up something and save face. And there are people who will cover endlessly for a lover. Or what if Caylee was already dead, Casey wasn't the murderer, but didn't want to face her parents or authorities with the nature of the injuries on Caylee, is it possible she would not tell in order to give the body time to decompose so the bruises or whatever marks would no longer be visible? I don't know. I still think she would have removed the tape from her face and so on. Just brainstorming on some of these old topics. Thanks for your patience during this brainstorm
Well, I do hope the right person is convicted so Caylee can have justice, I really do. Casey or otherwise. That goes without saying I know.