IF They Did It

[teacherbees]

The high profile activities came from the very beginning with an emphasis upon other missing children and preventing abductions. In fact, Gerry's four-day trip to the United States about 2 1/2 months after Madeleine disappeared, was entirely focused upon preventing abductions--not focusing upon the search for Maddie. I've quoted it before but here it is again:

"Mr. McCann has already met US attorney general Alberto Gonzales to discuss efforts to tackle child abduction.

The meetings are part of a visit to the US to learn about the work of specialist agencies in preventing child trafficking and sexual abuse."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2...340178,00.html

I think that the McCanns made a bargain with themselves and God, that they would work diligently and passionately for the welfare of other children. Madeleine's accidental death could be given meaning and other children would be safer.

There are other quotes from the McCanns where Kate talks about the "bigger picture" of other children being missing. She does this so early on with Madeleine's disappearance that it is quite unique. Yes, we all grieve in different ways, etc, etc, blah blah blah. That's why parents who lose a child so often end up divorced. This isn't a different way of grieving--this is at a speed that is again, unique.

My brother and his wife lost a newborn infant. A year later, they donated some furniture to the neonatal ICU for parents to have a place to sleep or rest. My friend who lost her son suddenly at 2 years old said she spent four years going to Compassionate Friends support group meetings before she continued for another 6 years to help others. No one I know who has lost a child is thinking about other people's children in the first three months--even the people who lost children to terminal illnesses such as leukemia. Six months was the earliest for people who knew their child was dying. Four years for one family whose daughter was abducted and missing, to even begin to accept that she might be dead, let alone start talking about other people's children.

It is inconsistent to talk about focusing only on the search for Madeleine and then make concerted efforts also to prevent child abductions.

So to me, no, the high profile activities don't necessarily mean they couldn't have been involved.

Texana - this is so true! I had a stillborn son in 1990. The first few months after his death are a blur. I remember a neighbor (and close friend) telling me her husband was very surprised by how "done in" I was by the death, as I'm usually very positive and social. I got through those first months on sheer grit. Mostly I wanted to stay in bed all day but I couldn't because I had an 8 and 6 year old in the house who needed a functioning mommy.

The one thing I do remember doing is going into the nursery and peeling away the cheerful balloon wallpaper with my bare hands while sobbing. At that time, I thought I'd never go through another pregnancy again and risk the possibility of putting myself and my family through that kind of searing sorrow once more.

I definitely did NOT begin crusading for other mothers who've had stillborn children.

Later, I became active in an Empty Cradle support group - first as a participant and then as a peer counselor for other mother's in my position. That didn't happen until about ten months after my son's death.

My son died in 1990. On the one year anniversary of his death, we donated new glider rockers to our church nursery. Every year since then we choose a charity that might represent something in his life, had he lived. Through the years, donations have gone out to playgrounds for our neighborhood, Little League teams, Children's choirs and such. This year we gave money to the Grad Night fund at our local high school as this is the year he would've been a senior.

I think your logic makes LOTS of sense, Texana. Otherwise it really is unprecedented to have parents who travel worldwide taking up children's causes when their own baby is so newly missing.

I keep coming back to the VanDams. Whatever you thought of them, everytime I went as part of one of the search parties here in San Diego, they were always out there - greeting and thanking volunteers for searching and heading up search teams themselves. I would see Damon with this almost desparate look in his eyes - as though he was personally going to look over every square inch of San Diego county til he found his little girl. Living here I knew all the stories about them from news reports, but you couln't look at that man's eyes and not feel deeply sorry for him.

I believe, as you put down in writing so well, that the Mccanns are trying to atone for the accidental death of their daughter. I don't have proof and I'd be happy to be proven wrong..but that's what it looks like to me.

 

[teacherbees]

Why can't you search while you're out jogging?​

You can - but you'd think Jerry would've at least mentioned that in his glib accounts of the conquests he and Kate made while jogging. If he was searching for Madeleine, he certainly didn't find that fact worthy of writing down.

 

[IrishMist]

I'm thinking John Walsh got politically active fairly quickly, too. I'll check, but I'm thinking it was within months.

People react differently to traumatic things.

 

[Bob&Bob]

You can - but you'd think Jerry would've at least mentioned that in his glib accounts of the conquests he and Kate made while jogging. If he was searching for Madeleine, he certainly didn't find that fact worthy of writing down.

He doesn't seem glib to me.​

 

[colomom]

Texana - this is so true! I had a stillborn son in 1990. The first few months after his death are a blur. I remember a neighbor (and close friend) telling me her husband was very surprised by how "done in" I was by the death, as I'm usually very positive and social. I got through those first months on sheer grit. Mostly I wanted to stay in bed all day but I couldn't because I had an 8 and 6 year old in the house who needed a functioning mommy.

The one thing I do remember doing is going into the nursery and peeling away the cheerful balloon wallpaper with my bare hands while sobbing. At that time, I thought I'd never go through another pregnancy again and risk the possibility of putting myself and my family through that kind of searing sorrow once more.

I definitely did NOT begin crusading for other mothers who've had stillborn children.

Later, I became active in an Empty Cradle support group - first as a participant and then as a peer counselor for other mother's in my position. That didn't happen until about ten months after my son's death.

My son died in 1990. On the one year anniversary of his death, we donated new glider rockers to our church nursery. Every year since then we choose a charity that might represent something in his life, had he lived. Through the years, donations have gone out to playgrounds for our neighborhood, Little League teams, Children's choirs and such. This year we gave money to the Grad Night fund at our local high school as this is the year he would've been a senior.

I think your logic makes LOTS of sense, Texana. Otherwise it really is unprecedented to have parents who travel worldwide taking up children's causes when their own baby is so newly missing.

I keep coming back to the VanDams. Whatever you thought of them, everytime I went as part of one of the search parties here in San Diego, they were always out there - greeting and thanking volunteers for searching and heading up search teams themselves. I would see Damon with this almost desparate look in his eyes - as though he was personally going to look over every square inch of San Diego county til he found his little girl. Living here I knew all the stories about them from news reports, but you couln't look at that man's eyes and not feel deeply sorry for him.

I believe, as you put down in writing so well, that the Mccanns are trying to atone for the accidental death of their daughter. I don't have proof and I'd be happy to be proven wrong..but that's what it looks like to me.

Big HUGE hugs teacherbees....I wish I could offer some comfort....

Thanks for your thoughts...I appreciate your point of view....

:blowkiss:

 

[Barnaby]

Texana - this is so true! I had a stillborn son in 1990. The first few months after his death are a blur. I remember a neighbor (and close friend) telling me her husband was very surprised by how "done in" I was by the death, as I'm usually very positive and social. I got through those first months on sheer grit. Mostly I wanted to stay in bed all day but I couldn't because I had an 8 and 6 year old in the house who needed a functioning mommy.

The one thing I do remember doing is going into the nursery and peeling away the cheerful balloon wallpaper with my bare hands while sobbing. At that time, I thought I'd never go through another pregnancy again and risk the possibility of putting myself and my family through that kind of searing sorrow once more.

I definitely did NOT begin crusading for other mothers who've had stillborn children.

Later, I became active in an Empty Cradle support group - first as a participant and then as a peer counselor for other mother's in my position. That didn't happen until about ten months after my son's death.

My son died in 1990. On the one year anniversary of his death, we donated new glider rockers to our church nursery. Every year since then we choose a charity that might represent something in his life, had he lived. Through the years, donations have gone out to playgrounds for our neighborhood, Little League teams, Children's choirs and such. This year we gave money to the Grad Night fund at our local high school as this is the year he would've been a senior.

I think your logic makes LOTS of sense, Texana. Otherwise it really is unprecedented to have parents who travel worldwide taking up children's causes when their own baby is so newly missing.

I keep coming back to the VanDams. Whatever you thought of them, everytime I went as part of one of the search parties here in San Diego, they were always out there - greeting and thanking volunteers for searching and heading up search teams themselves. I would see Damon with this almost desparate look in his eyes - as though he was personally going to look over every square inch of San Diego county til he found his little girl. Living here I knew all the stories about them from news reports, but you couln't look at that man's eyes and not feel deeply sorry for him.

I believe, as you put down in writing so well, that the Mccanns are trying to atone for the accidental death of their daughter. I don't have proof and I'd be happy to be proven wrong..but that's what it looks like to me.

So sorry for your loss teacherbees

 

[IrishMist]

I would like to add my condolences. I found this to be particularly touching:

My son died in 1990. On the one year anniversary of his death, we donated new glider rockers to our church nursery. Every year since then we choose a charity that might represent something in his life, had he lived. Through the years, donations have gone out to playgrounds for our neighborhood, Little League teams, Children's choirs and such. This year we gave money to the Grad Night fund at our local high school as this is the year he would've been a senior.

 

[EZRA]

Just a few thoughts -

1. John Walsh and others who suffered loss - knew what happened to their children - it wasn't as if there was some question as to what was happening to them or where they were when they got active in charities or support of others so it was a bit different. For Kate and Gerry Maddie could be going through God knows what and they are out doing support things for other children - if it were me I would be focusing on what my child could be going through or where he/she was - the not knowing would prevent me (and most I suppose) from doing or considering others. Most of the stories here even those knowing what happened to their children still took months or years to consider others - these people took just weeks to start campaigning for others - that just doesn't make sense to me.
2. I still go back to her first words - They've taken her - that in and of itself has left me always feeling they had something to do with this. I have 5 children of my own and from day one of this story I've said that I've gone over and over what I would say if I found one of my children missing how I might react and although I cannot say with 100% certainty I can say with pretty much conviction that it would not be that! I might say he's gone, he's not there, I can't find him, etc.....but that I'm pretty sure would not be one of my responses unless we'd been under some sort of attack and someone was trying to take my child and they finally got to us....if that makes sense. It just doesn't fit that would be her first response...at least to me. That just always got to me and made my hinky meter go off.....
3. If my child had just been abducted in a foreign country (or otherwise) the very last thing I would do is put my children in the care of someone else even family but for sure not a daycare center. And the McCann's had absolutely not problem putting the twins in creche every day from the very beginning. They dropped them off without a care in the world. Let me tell you - they'd have to pry those kids off me for fear it someone would try to steal them away too especially given the abduction happened in the resort the creche was located. That again said to me they knew what happened and had no fear the twins were in any sort of danger at all.

That's just a few of the things that have bothered me about this case....I mean it doesn't prove their guilt at all...maybe they are just weird parents who aren't very good with their kids at all. I don't know. There are just so many things...the blog bothers me beyond anything I can say - there is nothing about I miss her so much - I would just talk about her all the time - missing her and such....her mother just bugs me with her jogging and total lack of emotion but again maybe she just isn't very maternal. There are things to say she had something to do with it and I guess things to say she didn't just in my opinion she doesn't seem to care very much her daughter is gone, which makes her a very bad person in general. JMO.

 

[Texana]

A friend of a friend lost her son at sea while on vacation. Within 2 months, she organized two different fund raisers in his name. All proceeds went to the children's hospital in our area.

People channel their feelings in different ways.

With all due respect, Irishmist, she knew her son was gone, not missing and possibly in the hands of a pedophile. There was nothing more she could do for her son on this earth.

Teacherbees, I'm sorry for your loss, my heart goes out to you.

 

[IrishMist]

With all due respect, Irishmist, she knew her son was gone, not missing and possibly in the hands of a pedophile. There was nothing more she could do for her son on this earth.

Teacherbees, I'm sorry for your loss, my heart goes out to you.

No, she didn't. He was lost at sea, never found, even after a massive search.

I really don't think we can judge guilt or innocence based on whether people become politically active, concerned about others, more charitable, or nothing at all.

 

[Texana]

No, she didn't. He was lost at sea, never found, even after a massive search.

I really don't think we can judge guilt or innocence based on whether people become politically active, concerned about others, more charitable, or nothing at all.

In the first few hours of missing at sea, did this mother ask about other missing persons at sea? Did she immediately ask about efforts to stop other people from being lost at sea? Did she make a four day trip to stop future deaths, when her child was still possibly alive?

Did her actions come in a series of other actions and decisions that many people found odd or troubling or inconsistent?

The thought that we can't judge guilt or innocence goes two ways.

If we can't judge guilt based on unusual actions, odd responses, or lack of affect, we also can't judge innocence based on expressions of grief, pleas for global efforts, or outraged comments about being questioned for involvement.

 

[Barnaby]

Just a few thoughts -

1. John Walsh and others who suffered loss - knew what happened to their children - it wasn't as if there was some question as to what was happening to them or where they were when they got active in charities or support of others so it was a bit different. For Kate and Gerry Maddie could be going through God knows what and they are out doing support things for other children - if it were me I would be focusing on what my child could be going through or where he/she was - the not knowing would prevent me (and most I suppose) from doing or considering others. Most of the stories here even those knowing what happened to their children still took months or years to consider others - these people took just weeks to start campaigning for others - that just doesn't make sense to me.
2. I still go back to her first words - They've taken her - that in and of itself has left me always feeling they had something to do with this. I have 5 children of my own and from day one of this story I've said that I've gone over and over what I would say if I found one of my children missing how I might react and although I cannot say with 100% certainty I can say with pretty much conviction that it would not be that! I might say he's gone, he's not there, I can't find him, etc.....but that I'm pretty sure would not be one of my responses unless we'd been under some sort of attack and someone was trying to take my child and they finally got to us....if that makes sense. It just doesn't fit that would be her first response...at least to me. That just always got to me and made my hinky meter go off.....
3. If my child had just been abducted in a foreign country (or otherwise) the very last thing I would do is put my children in the care of someone else even family but for sure not a daycare center. And the McCann's had absolutely not problem putting the twins in creche every day from the very beginning. They dropped them off without a care in the world. Let me tell you - they'd have to pry those kids off me for fear it someone would try to steal them away too especially given the abduction happened in the resort the creche was located. That again said to me they knew what happened and had no fear the twins were in any sort of danger at all.

That's just a few of the things that have bothered me about this case....I mean it doesn't prove their guilt at all...maybe they are just weird parents who aren't very good with their kids at all. I don't know. There are just so many things...the blog bothers me beyond anything I can say - there is nothing about I miss her so much - I would just talk about her all the time - missing her and such....her mother just bugs me with her jogging and total lack of emotion but again maybe she just isn't very maternal. There are things to say she had something to do with it and I guess things to say she didn't just in my opinion she doesn't seem to care very much her daughter is gone, which makes her a very bad person in general. JMO.

I totally agree with you!

 

[Love_Mama]

I totally agree with you!

AMEN!


xxxxxxxxoooooo
mama:blowkiss: :blowkiss:

 

[Zelda]

I see similarities with the Ramseys--how they acted after they found Jon Benet. They certainly never went into seculsion while Jon Benet was missing and after. They appeared on tv interviews--using the excuse that they needn't publicity. In any case, as I remember, they did not seem to be in shock.
And the McCanns are acting out--traveling to other countries, etc.
Just a thought.

 

[CaliKid]

Jon Benet was only missing for a few hours and was found the same day. But I do see some similarities

 

[Maryam]

There are definitely similarities between the two cases.

 

[s_finch]

Jon Benet was only missing for a few hours and was found the same day. But I do see some similarities

I have thought the same thing.

Wanted to add my own "loss" experience, not that it at all compares to what teacherbees (I'm sorry, teacherbee) and others have gone through but I do think my reaction was pretty common and reflects a fairly normal materal reaction.

We did not know our son had Down Syndrome until shortly after he was born. I'm usually the rock, the stoic one in times of crisis and I usually deal with crisis by sleeping too much and eating too much (I'd guess you'd say I'm the stoic rock when I'm awake ) But when the doctors and my husband told me our son had Down's, I totally lost it. I was so near the edge of my sanity that for weeks I literally couldn't sit still, I felt as though if I did sit for one second this huge black cloud of grief and insanity would so overwhelm me I would never recover. Why the intense reaction? I later learned I was literally grieving for the loss ("death" in a very real way to me) of the little boy I thought I was going to have. My SIL explained it best to me when she said "You have to let yourself grieve for the baby you thought you were going to have"--and I did grieve for months. What I didn't do and didn't care to do AT ALL was to offer support to other moms. I was still too angry and grieved and mad a God to give a darn about anyone else in the same boat (am I'm usually a very understand person, if I may say so myself). I had absolutely nothing to offer anyone else at that point in my life.

So my experience isn't nearly on the same grief or tragic level as those who have truly lost a child but from my personal experience I can't fathom the McCann's immediately jumping into the "save other kids" bandwagon (along with many other things they've done/didn't do). The jogging I can understand, maybe even some of the blogging but not the extensive traveling, the leaving their twins at the creche, and again, not their quick efforts to push for help for other children. Those last 3 behaviours I cannot make fit into an "innocent parent" situation. I'm quite sure if my child was abducted or had wandered off, I'd have been physically searching every inch of that resort, countryside, every vehicle, every employee---I'd have probably gotten arrested for over stepping my boundaries.

I'd like to add that I did "care" for my new baby when he was born, but it took me several months to love him. Now I literally thank God every day for him, he's wonderful and I wouldn't change him for anything.

Just my experience

 

[teacherbees]

s_finch, wow. Your post moved me to tears.

I don't think there's a comparison scale on things like grief. The sorrow you felt when you realized you were not going to be bringing home the baby you'd dreamed of and hoped for was no less than what mothers experience when their children die. And to raise a Down's syndrome child is a special kind of heroism. Not because they're so "awful" or "less" but because it takes a special kind of energy and love and devotion to care for these children.

I love the poem from the lady whose name escapes me now. She wrote of her experience with her Down's Syndrome child in the most moving terms. To paraphrase, she likened it to planning an exciting, wonderful trip to Italy and then learning that the plane you're on is taking you to Holland instead. Holland isn't as glitzy as Italy...but you're there and you find that in it's own different, unique way it's still a very beautiful place to be.

It sounds like you have found the joy of Holland. Blessings to you and your son.

You know, I really don't think that jumping on the Save the Abducted Children of the World bandwagon, in itself, makes the McCanns guilty. It's just offcenter from how the majority of people would act if they really thought there was even the remotest possibility that their three year old baby girl was out there somewhere being raped and/or otherwise hurt and tortured by someone.

 

[Rino]

Originally Posted by IrishMist
A friend of a friend lost her son at sea while on vacation. Within 2 months, she organized two different fund raisers in his name. All proceeds went to the children's hospital in our area.

People channel their feelings in different ways.

I'm thinking John Walsh got politically active fairly quickly, too. I'll check, but I'm thinking it was within months.

People react differently to traumatic things.

Originally Posted by teacherbees
Texana - this is so true! I had a stillborn son in 1990. The first few months after his death are a blur. I remember a neighbor (and close friend) telling me her husband was very surprised by how "done in" I was by the death, as I'm usually very positive and social. I got through those first months on sheer grit. Mostly I wanted to stay in bed all day but I couldn't because I had an 8 and 6 year old in the house who needed a functioning mommy......


Later, I became active in an Empty Cradle support group - first as a participant and then as a peer counselor for other mother's in my position. That didn't happen until about ten months after my son's death.

My son died in 1990. On the one year anniversary of his death, we donated new glider rockers to our church nursery. Every year since then we choose a charity that might represent something in his life, had he lived. Through the years, donations have gone out to playgrounds for our neighborhood, Little League teams, Children's choirs and such. This year we gave money to the Grad Night fund at our local high school as this is the year he would've been a senior.

All of these parents acted after knowing their child was dead. Their actions on behalf the the greater good came from knowing there was no longer any hope for their own. Big difference, imo.

Just like leaving the twins when Maddie "dissappeared", if Maddie is waiting on her parents to come for her it will be a let down to know they thought of others first, and did not single her out.

Teacherbees, bless you!

 

[Texana]

All of these parents acted after knowing their child was dead. Their actions on behalf the the greater good came from knowing there was no longer any hope for their own. Big difference, imo.

Just like leaving the twins when Maddie "dissappeared", if Maddie is waiting on her parents to come for her it will be a let down to know they thought of others first, and did not single her out.

Teacherbees, bless you!

Agreed! Just as she will be if she reads the journal that Auntie Phil suggested Kate keep for Madeleine to read when she comes home, that would detail what they did every day to search for Maddie.

The same journal that reportedly has Kate complaining about Madeleine's behavior.

We can understand venting about a tough day or difficult childish behavior, but complaining in the journal that was supposedly started at Auntie Phil's suggestion (and I can see where you'd do what Auntie Phil suggests) for the child to read?