If you agree or disagree with the verdict, let us know why

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i found the grief counselor to be very entertaining. not really the most professional woman in the world but she is obviously very..passionate about her work. just on a personal level i found her to be interesting, just a little (a lot) out there, hokey.
 
I would definitely have to say that trusting that this jury would be able to evaluate the Circumstantial evidence and put it into context with the rest of the evidence was apparently expecting too much from this group of jurrors.
I disagree with the verdict for the very simple reason that inspite of all the hair splitting over what should or shouldnt have been done by the prosecution I dont for the life of me see how anyone could entertain for a second that Casey wasnt directly responsible for her daughter's murder.
There isnt another explanation that isnt torturously implausible including the one her defense finaly landed on.
It takes a suspension of disbeleif akin to entertaining the reality of the Easter Bunny to accept the story(Her what... fifth or sixth one?) of what happened to Caylee.
And speaking of suspension of disbelief...I wish I could through some mingle mangled logic buy into the popular theory that this verdict is somehow a reassuring sign of the 'health' of our justice system.
But I cant. My feeling is that it indicates exactly the opposite.
Casey murdered her daughter and her attorneys were succesful in subverting Justice and seeing to it that a child killer did not have to pay for her crime and was turned loose back onto the streets.
There isnt much positive that can be retrieved from that.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think YM called the Anthony home and told CA or GA that he was sending officers to pick Casey up to take her to Universal. I think it was CA because I think she testified that she had to wake Casey up and the officers came and got her and met YM and the other detectives there. I don't think it was like Casey saying, hey I'll meet you at my office. IIRC

My understanding on how it went down was that Casey told YM & Co. during their outing at Sawgrass that she'd take them to her office in Universal to get the phone (remember YM kept asking why she brought them there?). YM did call GA on his cell to let him know they're picking her up and she probably wouldn't be coming home. My guess was the reason for the time lapse is because Universal offices weren't open at the time they were investigating the Sawgrass stuff.
 
I had dinner with my attorney brother tonight. he made an interesting observation and I wondered if this was an issue for anyone else.
He said part of the reason JA was not successful was because the fact that he continually kept drinking his water over and over and stopping in mid sentence to open the bottle, drink and then talk and then drink some more. he said it was extremely odd and he wonders how much it annoyed the jurors and interfered with his overall delivery. He said he has never seen an attorney do this. It was very noticeable to my brother perhaps because he does this for a living, but I wondered if it bothered or was noticeable to anyone else.
I did not watch closing arguments only listened so I cannot comment.

Interesting observation.

There were several out of control wildfires around central and northeast Florida during that time that created respiratory conditons for many. Plus, as someone else pointed out, Ann Finell was sick with a cold and likely passed her germs to others being in such close quarters.

Baez's presentation wasn't exactly what I'd call fluid and lacked continuity, IMO. He stuttered and stammered and often changed direction mid stream.

If that's the reason the jurors found the Prosecution 'unsuccesful', then all that shows me is that they were biased and lacked the skills needed to pay attention to the facts being presented and do their job as instructed under the law.

MOO
 
Okay great, so with your extensive knowledge in mental health I'm sure you've heard of Dr. Robert Hare, but for those who have not:



Ok, so let's use Dr. Hare's checklist for psychopathy, and then you can precisely point out which of these make you feel Casey doesn't fit the bill.



http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html
Hare's Checklist

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example. Why wouldn't Casey testify if she had this personality trait?

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.Same as above, if she had a grandiose self-worth, not only would she have hopped up on the stand in a heart beat, she may have even gone to the extent of signing autographs for people.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine. She has been in solitary confinement for 3 years and the CO state she's a model prisoner. I'm sure she hasn't had any amount of exciting stimulation, but yet she maintained her composure.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.I will not disagree with this one, everyone knows she's a liar.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.This one is a hard one because I do believe she was careless of AH and her grandfather, but throughout her whole life those are the only 2 I know of with gross disregard. (I know you could argue her parents, but they were enablers with her behavior so it's hard to say she had gross disregard for them, or if they were enabling her to behave that way towards them.)

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.I have to argue that she is not unempathic, she took care of her "shot girls", she watched over them, etc. She had empathy for them and made sure they weren't being harmed by the drunk men around there. She also cooked, cleaned, etc TL's place once living there. She wasn't dispassionate. I also don't believe she was dispassionate with Caylee, she had 100's of pictures of her, and her alone. She showed concern for Caylee at TL's apartment pool, worried about her getting too close to it.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness. TL showed her affection, she returned affection. Caylee showed her affection and she returned affection. Her friends showed her care/concern/laughter, and she shared that with them (minus her theft from AH, but she had many more friends then the one). The list could go on.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.I stated she wasn't cold in general towards people. A lot of people liked her and enjoyed her company. The CO's even testifying to her being a pleasant person to communicate with the little they did.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.Again, this one is a hard one to argue. She was a little parasitic after she had Caylee. Before Caylee she was working. So it's hard to say that she is a true parasite since life changes could have caused the parasitic behavior in that time frame.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.There are only 2 times I've seen Casey not being able to control her behavior, the one jailhouse video and the one day in court. Now, if out of 3 years of watching someone's life, you can only come up with 2... that's pretty good control over yourself.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.This could be linked to many other things also, so I'm not going to disagree she behaves this way, but this doesn't mean she's psychopathic.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.We have never heard of her being a troubled child, which is my main reason for saying she isn't psychopathic or sociopathic.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.It's hard to say if this is something she has developed. She's in her 20's (early 20's at that) and this is the point in life that most people are discovering who they are. That is a normal course in development.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.I do agree she lacks impulse control. That also could be related to many other things.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.I agree with this one also, but could be related to other things.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.I don't see her exhibit antagonistic manipulation or denial of responsibility (in totality).the other symptoms I could agree with if I saw a bigger window into her life.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.I don't know how long she was engaged to JG, or how long their total relationship was, but we're talking about an early 20 something female, this is normal to not know what you want in life yet. At least in this day in age it is. So, I have to say this isn't a trait she exhibits because we don't know what her future holds.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.Again, she wasn't a criminal in any sense before this case.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.This never occurred. When she was on house arrest she went back when it was time to go back. She's made all of her court appearances, etc. She didn't attempt to flee the area, so I have to disagree with this.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.Her criminal history is revolved around one instance, so I have to disagree that she has a diversity of criminal offenses.

Responses in red above.

Out of the 20 behaviors psychopaths exhibit, IMO Casey exhibited 4 of these personality traits. And, the 4 she definitely exhibited could be related to other issues.

ETA: I never said I had "extensive" knowledge in mental health. I stated that I knew a lot about different disorders (I've had mental health classes repeatedly in nursing school, mental health experiences in life/work, and was going to continue my education to get a degree in psychology). I do not claim to be an expert though, no where near that.
 
OMG, I answered yes for myself on 16 of the 20. I'm 80% of the way to being a full blown Psychopath. :)

I honestly doubt you were able to answer yes to 16 of them... unless you really are full of yourself and just love to torture people/animals.. haha!

Psychopaths are a breed of a different kind. They are the creepy people that a lot of people stay clear of.
 
I had dinner with my attorney brother tonight. he made an interesting observation and I wondered if this was an issue for anyone else.
He said part of the reason JA was not successful was because the fact that he continually kept drinking his water over and over and stopping in mid sentence to open the bottle, drink and then talk and then drink some more. he said it was extremely odd and he wonders how much it annoyed the jurors and interfered with his overall delivery. He said he has never seen an attorney do this. It was very noticeable to my brother perhaps because he does this for a living, but I wondered if it bothered or was noticeable to anyone else.
I did not watch closing arguments only listened so I cannot comment.

I noticed it, but didn't really find it annoying. I know early on in the trial he coughed a lot, so I just chalked up the drinking water to avoid a scratchy throat. :twocents:
 
I thought he had a cold early in the trial, and I thought he was drinking water often because of that. It didn't really bother me that much, but then thanks to WS and the Sunshine law, I already knew what he was going to be talking about. It may have annoyed the jurists more than us WS'ers, because they had no idea what he was going to be talking about. I thought he was too aggresive though, and I believe when LDB did the questioning she did just as well as JA in a much more agreeable way.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

ITA... I really respected LDB, she was good in this trial. The only thing that bothered me about her was when she wasn't doing the questioning, she frequently sat at her table with her arms crossed and an angry look on her face. I think it made her less likeable.. until she was asking questions again :)
 
BBM: Casey gained her freedom, she is now hoping to make big bucks. She got off on telling lies, so she will never ever admit the truth about what happened to Caylee Marie and how she killed her. She had plenty to gain, considering what she deserved and didn't get. She can toy with people for years, dangling little teasers about the way Caylee Marie died. I do understand what JA eant - it would have been a small act of kindness if she used chloroform on Caylee Marie before she duct taped her. But, makes me wonder. Maybe she enjoyed watching her helpless child struggle to breathe. Maybe that fourth strip of duct tape was used to bind Caylee Marie's tiny little hands. She really fixed CA for choking her on June 15 and threatening to get custody of Caylee Marie.

This is speculation though. I have not seen her come forward yet to make the "big bucks" and it's been almost a week. There were big bucks thrown around to the parties involved in this case ($15K to RK for a pic of a snake just blows my mind still, amongst all the other "friends" who have collected (RM, Kiomarie, and the like). I don't understand why people are jumping the gun right now and saying Casey's going to make millions now, lets boycott everything Casey, OMG... she's going to have another baby, etc etc. None of this has happened yet. It may not ever happen. IMO, there is no reason to get up in arms about something that hasn't happened and may never happen.
 
I honestly doubt you were able to answer yes to 16 of them... unless you really are full of yourself and just love to torture people/animals.. haha!

Psychopaths are a breed of a different kind. They are the creepy people that a lot of people stay clear of.

Not according to the comments of mental health professionals (Dr. Hellman for one). Psychopaths/Sociopaths are not creepy and that is why they are so dangerous.

Friendly, charming and seemingly normal are more often outward characteristics - a la Ted Bundy.

There is disagreement as to whether Casey Anthony is a psychopath.
 
I do not know why they went to another county for jury selection. It was supposedly because locals would not be able to judge KC fairly, to consider the evidence in the face of all the media hype.

I understand the necessity of an impartial jury. I understand changes of venue for certain cases. And I understand the judge wanting everything to go by the letter of the law.

But sadly, I see this as a case of jury misconduct. They were all warned NOT to discuss the case until it was given to them to deliberate, and there is just no way they abided by that warning. With the hundreds of pieces of evidence entered into the record, it is just not possible that these jurors deliberated and came to a conclusion in a matter of hours! Plus, the outspokenness of Alternate Juror RH right after the verdict shows that the jurors had discussed this case to some degree in advance of going into the deliberations room.

This needs to be investigated. To let this go not only leaves a murderer free, it contaminates our entire justice system and may compromise other cases.

It is ludicrous to think that time of death must be known in order to convict and there is no way the jury instructions stated that as a requirement. There are many cases where time of death is not known. And many where cause of death is not obvious but evidence points toward homicide, as in this case. FGS, there are convictions in cases where there is not even a body!!

The state does not get another go if they make a mistake, if they fail to do their job. But what if the jurors are the ones who failed? What if the jurors ignored the law and discussed the case prior to deliberations? I believe they did, and I think they should be made to answer some serious questions. This is too important to just let slide.

Forget about where KC is. Forget about where GA and CA go on vacation. It just doesn't matter when you consider the actions (or inaction) of this jury. They claim cause of death and time of death were not proven by the state so the law would not allow them to convict on any of the felony charges. Clearly these jurors either did not understand the jury instructions or deliberately ignored them.


Did this alternate juror state his opinion on how deliberations would've (or presumably) went, or did he state he knew how they went? I didn't see the interview so I'm asking an honest question.

If I were sitting on that jury, throughout the whole trial, I wouldn't need any evidence to look at. I would've voted NG for murder 1, I would've had to look at the law for Manslaughter and Aggravated Child Abuse, then after reviewing the law would've voted NG for those also. Just my :twocents:.
 
Yea, I thought the grief counselor was going to lose the whole case for the DT. All I could say the whole time she was on the stand was WOW. Just Wow.

I actually liked the grief counselor... but it's probably because I deal a lot with Hospice and most of them are similar. It's a holistic approach to what ails you, so it's a lot different then cold hard facts, strictly business, etc.
 
Did this alternate juror state his opinion on how deliberations would've (or presumably) went, or did he state he knew how they went? I didn't see the interview so I'm asking an honest question.

If I were sitting on that jury, throughout the whole trial, I wouldn't need any evidence to look at. I would've voted NG for murder 1, I would've had to look at the law for Manslaughter and Aggravated Child Abuse, then after reviewing the law would've voted NG for those also. Just my :twocents:.


I am sure you would have based on your comments on this forum.

Your comments are eerily similar to what the jury foreman said in his interview to Greta.
 
Not according to the comments of mental health professionals (Dr. Hellman for one). Psychopaths/Sociopaths are not creepy and that is why they are so dangerous.

Friendly, charming and seemingly normal are more often outward characteristics - a la Ted Bundy.

There is disagreement as to whether Casey Anthony is a psychopath.

Grandiosity is nowhere near friendly and charming (or normal). They are manipulative, but they usually prey on the weak because those people don't have the gulls to walk away from people like them. Your average person sees the red flags in people like this though.

There are more traits to psychopathy (like they harm animals when they are younger, etc), but that one in particular is the opposite of friendly/charming.
 
I am sure you would have based on your comments on this forum.

Your comments are eerily similar to what the jury foreman said in his interview to Greta.

If you're insinuating perhaps I'm the foreman, I can clear that up right now, I'm in no way related to this case.

I started off in the beginning believing she was guilty. I lost track of the case after they arrested her from the Universal lies, and remember hearing about them finding the body, but didn't pay too much attention to it over the years after that.

I started paying attention to it again when I heard on NG that they're starting the trial soon (I honestly thought she was already tried and convicted). I started looking up info on this case, I found a lot on this board. I thought this would be an interesting trial to watch (I've never before watched every second of a trial, I'm 29 and thought there were more important things to be doing with my life during most of the big cases). After opening statements, I thought... really??? After all this time this is your answer to the questions?? I didn't buy JB in the beginning. But, I continued to watch to see what the state had to offer. While watching the trial I continued to research documents, etc. When the state rested I couldn't believe it. Nothing was tied to Casey IMO. Nothing. By the end of trial there wasn't a doubt in my mind she wasn't going to get anything but the 4 counts of lying.

I did a lot of arguing on a fellow WSer's Youtube channel, and if she was around here (perhaps?) she could attest to that. I took a lot of beatings, but I held my ground. I didn't post much here, I don't think I posted anything at all, because all the threads I saw were geared towards the state's case.
 
Grandiosity is nowhere near friendly and charming (or normal). They are manipulative, but they usually prey on the weak because those people don't have the gulls to walk away from people like them. Your average person sees the red flags in people like this though.

There are more traits to psychopathy (like they harm animals when they are younger, etc), but that one in particular is the opposite of friendly/charming.

Not necessarily. "Some psychopaths can even be very fond of animals (contrary to the common viewpoint), but still view them as objects in relation to themselves."

Regardless of what you think of Casey Anthony, the characteristics of psychopathy are far more insidious. I recommend you read the following:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm (I hope I'm allowed to post the link)

It is the first site that popped up when I typed: "Why psychopaths are dangerous". The site is called What is a Psychopath?

Many, many people are fooled by psychopaths -- including the most accomplished psychologists/psychiatrists. I certainly do not presume that I know all of the traits of a psychopath - my understanding is that they are chameleons. Anyway, read the article, I think you will find it interesting and informative.
 
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1181900.ece


Russ Huekler - alternate juror:

"It wasn't that we believed Casey was innocent," he said. "But we knew it wasn't enough to think she was probably guilty based on her lies. To follow what the law required, we needed to be definite."

:waitasec:

This article was written today. I'm not sure when the interview was done, but I'm sure it wasn't that long ago. Is it possible since the verdict Huekler has been in contact with the other juror members? Absolutely. He did not state in the article that he knew how the deliberations went. What he states is in present tense.
 
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