If your child was murdered

[ScarlettScarpetta]

As I originally said, I find fault with the Ramseys failure to cooperate. That is what started this asinine conversation. In my book, a parent who refuses to cooperate is hiding something.

If anyone wants to make excuses for that failure to cooperate then who am I to say otherwise. It doesn't change the fact they did not cooperate.

I don't think they failed to cooperate, I think they were advised not to after all the shennanigans. The way the police handled this from the beginning. The fact that the police ASKED the coroner to hold that body is just ridiculous. What that says to me, Is that the police were willing to be underhanded to get what they thought they could. They had their high beams on the Ramseys right away and I think that they know it and their attys knew it and so they were careful about how they were going to meet with them.

What you said was that you did not know of anyone who was convicted of killing their child and proved innocent later. I showed you that, and there are more. Lots more. AS much as it is horrible and we all think that we would just offer everything up, If you were innocent, and felt the police coming after you, I would hope you would lawyer up too. Lay people are not equipped to handle police. They are allowed to lie to get information and as in this instance they were looking to hold the body to punish the parents for not talking to them, something they have a right to under law.

My issue is that the IDI theorist are ridiculed because there is a sentiment among the RDI that we are in denial or not looking at everything.. With this point it is right back at ya.

There is no way not to see this as underhanded. The Ramseys broke no law, Gave samples, But I am sure at this point felt against the wall and let their attys work out the details of the interviews. In my mind, especially with hindsight, was a smart smart move.

 

[DeeDee249]

They did not cooperate the way innocent people would. Their DEFENSE LAWYERS refused to allow them to be interviewed separately, which is standard police procedure- they were not being asked to do anything out of the ordinary. They also refused to allow them to answer specific questions about that night and to reply to certain questions more than once, even going so far as to ask for questions in advance (to get their stories aka lies, straight). There is SO MUCH to read between the lines about what their lawyers would NOT allow them to do that it would fill a book on its own. And you have to ask yourself why? What was there to hide if innocent? Why did the DA refuse to allow the Rs to be asked (or a warrant issued) for the most basic things to help solve the murder of their child? Their phone records, their clothing. Yes, they gave samples (it would have been a blatant admission of guilt for them not to) of saliva and hair. So did many others they cast suspicion on. NONE were linked to the crime or crime scene in any way. ONLY the Rs were linked (by way of their fibers and Patsy's forearm hair found on the white blanket).
And lets not forget the complete whitewash (literally) of the home as soon as it was returned to the family. Every scrap of carpet, every bit of wallpaper removed. Every wall painted white. There would never be a way to go back ad try to find a blood spatter, print, etc. LE couldn't even determine where she was actually killed. Like poor JB's body, the Rs, their lawyers and the DA's office (part of the defense team to this day) did not was the body or the crime scene in the hands of LE too long- they wanted it GONE. So she was buried within days (likely embalmed too, making any further testing unlikely), and the house was whitewashed too. In any other unsolved child assault/murder, I doubt the body would have been released so soon. But hey, they had the TV coverage of the funeral all booked, right? And JB had to look "perfect" (Patsy's words to BR at the coffin).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They did not cooperate the way innocent people would. Their DEFENSE LAWYERS refused to allow them to be interviewed separately, which is standard police procedure- they were not being asked to do anything out of the ordinary. They also refused to allow them to answer specific questions about that night and to reply to certain questions more than once, even going so far as to ask for questions in advance (to get their stories aka lies, straight). There is SO MUCH to read between the lines about what their lawyers would NOT allow them to do that it would fill a book on its own. And you have to ask yourself why? What was there to hide if innocent? Why did the DA refuse to allow the Rs to be asked (or a warrant issued) for the most basic things to help solve the murder of their child? Their phone records, their clothing. Yes, they gave samples (it would have been a blatant admission of guilt for them not to) of saliva and hair. So did many others they cast suspicion on. NONE were linked to the crime or crime scene in any way. ONLY the Rs were linked (by way of their fibers and Patsy's forearm hair found on the white blanket).
And lets not forget the complete whitewash (literally) of the home as soon as it was returned to the family. Every scrap of carpet, every bit of wallpaper removed. Every wall painted white. There would never be a way to go back ad try to find a blood spatter, print, etc. LE couldn't even determine where she was actually killed. Like poor JB's body, the Rs, their lawyers and the DA's office (part of the defense team to this day) did not was the body or the crime scene in the hands of LE too long- they wanted it GONE. So she was buried within days (likely embalmed too, making any further testing unlikely), and the house was whitewashed too. In any other unsolved child assault/murder, I doubt the body would have been released so soon. But hey, they had the TV coverage of the funeral all booked, right? And JB had to look "perfect" (Patsy's words to BR at the coffin).

The absolutely cooperated the way innocent people are entitled to under the law. They have the right to representation before speaking to police. They have the right to have counsel before speaking to police.
If you are upset with the DA then take it up with their office but that does not fall on the R's.
Most people bury in days. I don't see that as a flag. The coroner released the body much to the police chagrin and they buried their baby.
Embalming does not in itself preclude further testing. I have seen Dr Baden pull bodies from the ground decades later and find evidence.

Of course she wanted her baby to look perfect in the coffin. ALL parents do. I have seen them purchase outrageous outfits coffins they could not really afford. They want their babies to have the very best as the go to rest.

To me most of this stuff has a normal reasonable explanation.

 

[madeleine]

They did not cooperate the way innocent people would. Their DEFENSE LAWYERS refused to allow them to be interviewed separately, which is standard police procedure- they were not being asked to do anything out of the ordinary. They also refused to allow them to answer specific questions about that night and to reply to certain questions more than once, even going so far as to ask for questions in advance (to get their stories aka lies, straight). There is SO MUCH to read between the lines about what their lawyers would NOT allow them to do that it would fill a book on its own. And you have to ask yourself why? What was there to hide if innocent? Why did the DA refuse to allow the Rs to be asked (or a warrant issued) for the most basic things to help solve the murder of their child? Their phone records, their clothing. Yes, they gave samples (it would have been a blatant admission of guilt for them not to) of saliva and hair. So did many others they cast suspicion on. NONE were linked to the crime or crime scene in any way. ONLY the Rs were linked (by way of their fibers and Patsy's forearm hair found on the white blanket).
And lets not forget the complete whitewash (literally) of the home as soon as it was returned to the family. Every scrap of carpet, every bit of wallpaper removed. Every wall painted white. There would never be a way to go back ad try to find a blood spatter, print, etc. LE couldn't even determine where she was actually killed. Like poor JB's body, the Rs, their lawyers and the DA's office (part of the defense team to this day) did not was the body or the crime scene in the hands of LE too long- they wanted it GONE. So she was buried within days (likely embalmed too, making any further testing unlikely), and the house was whitewashed too. In any other unsolved child assault/murder, I doubt the body would have been released so soon. But hey, they had the TV coverage of the funeral all booked, right? And JB had to look "perfect" (Patsy's words to BR at the coffin).

excellent post DD :thumb:

 

[BOESP]

<snip>

But hey, they had the TV coverage of the funeral all booked, right? And JB had to look "perfect" (Patsy's words to BR at the coffin).

You gotta wonder who would hire a public relations firm to handle the filming of your child's memorial service for national television. Who does that (besides the Ramseys)? It gives new meaning to indicting a "ham" sandwich.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

You gotta wonder who would hire a public relations firm to handle the filming of your child's memorial service for national television. Who does that (besides the Ramseys)? It gives new meaning to indicting a "ham" sandwich.

JonBenet's memorial service was very low-key compared to what we see today. I'm pretty sure it was never shown on national TV, either.

 

[Venom]

I don't think they failed to cooperate, I think they were advised not to after all the shennanigans. The way the police handled this from the beginning. The fact that the police ASKED the coroner to hold that body is just ridiculous. What that says to me, Is that the police were willing to be underhanded to get what they thought they could. They had their high beams on the Ramseys right away and I think that they know it and their attys knew it and so they were careful about how they were going to meet with them.

What you said was that you did not know of anyone who was convicted of killing their child and proved innocent later. I showed you that, and there are more. Lots more. AS much as it is horrible and we all think that we would just offer everything up, If you were innocent, and felt the police coming after you, I would hope you would lawyer up too. Lay people are not equipped to handle police. They are allowed to lie to get information and as in this instance they were looking to hold the body to punish the parents for not talking to them, something they have a right to under law.

My issue is that the IDI theorist are ridiculed because there is a sentiment among the RDI that we are in denial or not looking at everything.. With this point it is right back at ya.

There is no way not to see this as underhanded. The Ramseys broke no law, Gave samples, But I am sure at this point felt against the wall and let their attys work out the details of the interviews. In my mind, especially with hindsight, was a smart smart move.

BBM- As are ALL murder cases, especially when a child is murdered. It's known that you work from the inside out. The R's did not cooperate, it's plain as day. They did not submit to formal interviews, wanted to be questioned away from the police station, wanted to know what questions were going to be asked. I'd like to see you or I ask the police for a list of questions prior to an interview and insist to be interviewed at a "neutral" location. Somehow I don't think we'd get what we wanted.
JR was going to get on a plane hours after his daughter is found murdered in their house...for an important business meeting :waitasec: In the middle of his Christmas vacation. I guess he forgot about that important meeting when he made the plans to fly to MI that morning. So the fact that the family was planning to fly to MI, told LE that then hours later after JB is found they have to fly to GA now. That isn't odd?

 

[BOESP]

JonBenet's memorial service was very low-key compared to what we see today. I'm pretty sure it was never shown on national TV, either.

Yes, the one in Boulder was shown in excerpts on national television nightly news. I saw it. Patsy had on a black dress. It was not the entire service but it was what the PR team put together for national news.

One of the books (PMPT? Thomas? or DOI) told how the Ramseys hired PR people to handle the event and what to include for television. It was very orchestrated. It was not a thirty-minute tv special but it was shown on national news.

I'll see if I can find some links for some of it.

ETA: so far, the only video I've found is that of Patsy and Santa Bill embracing at the memorial service in Boulder but this is not the video I am talking about. ABC, NBC and CBS carried video footage. I'll keep looking.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Yes, the one in Boulder was shown on national television. I saw it. Patsy had on a black dress with a black up-brimmed hat with a black veil.

You watched the entire service back in 96/97 when it happened? I've never seen any source that says the memorial service was shown on (national channel here).

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Yes, the one in Boulder was shown in excerpts on national television nightly news. I saw it. Patsy had on a black dress. It was not the entire service but it was what the PR team put together for national news.

One of the books (PMPT? Thomas? or DOI) told how the Ramseys hired PR people to handle the event and what to include for television. It was very orchestrated. It was not a thirty-minute tv special but it was shown on national news.

I'll see if I can find some links for some of it.

ETA: so far, the only video I've found is that of Patsy and Santa Bill embracing at the memorial service in Boulder but this is not the video I am talking about. ABC, NBC and CBS carried video footage. I'll keep looking.

Okay, now I understand what you are saying. Recently, I found footage of Patsy and John leaving the service on one of those stock image websites. I'll see if I can find it again.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM- As are ALL murder cases, especially when a child is murdered. It's known that you work from the inside out. The R's did not cooperate, it's plain as day. They did not submit to formal interviews, wanted to be questioned away from the police station, wanted to know what questions were going to be asked. I'd like to see you or I ask the police for a list of questions prior to an interview and insist to be interviewed at a "neutral" location. Somehow I don't think we'd get what we wanted.
JR was going to get on a plane hours after his daughter is found murdered in their house...for an important business meeting :waitasec: In the middle of his Christmas vacation. I guess he forgot about that important meeting when he made the plans to fly to MI that morning. So the fact that the family was planning to fly to MI, told LE that then hours later after JB is found they have to fly to GA now. That isn't odd?

Actually when a child is killed there is usually parallel investigations as per police I have talked to. One starts looking inside while the other is looking out.

None of this after the fact behavior is proof that anyone killed JBR. Odd is not guilt. I have seen people react all kinds of weird ways in grief. Some run, Some look for something to be busy with, Some fall apart, some pray some yell, Some focus on anything but what is going on.

What I care about it what actually points to Him being responsible for the child's murder. That is the only question that matters.

 

[BOESP]

You watched the entire service back in 96/97 when it happened? I've never seen any source that says the memorial service was shown on (national channel here).

No, the entire Boulder service was not shown, only the parts entering and exiting the church and a few other long shots. It was put together by the Ramsey's PR team. I can not remember the exact date but it was all over national news in the United States. Patsy wrote about it saying (my paraphrasing) that it was easier to submit to what a PR team thought would satisfy the public concerning JonBenet's Boulder memorial without having photographers grappling like vultures. The Ramseys agreed to having certain things available on video footage for the news channels.

Michael Tracy, iirc, is the one who put together the internationally shown "special" that, among other things, showed Patsy and Santa Bill inside the Boulder memorial. But this is separate to the footage that was shown on ABC, NBC and CBS nightly news, footage that the Ramsey PR team set up.

Patsy explains some of this in "Death of Innocence." Here's a link to portions of the book and some still shots: http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-funeral.htm

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Here's some brief footage from the memorial service if anyone's interested. Starts at 0:34:

http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/U...lFilters=&productType=IncludedProducts&page=1

 

[Venom]

Actually when a child is killed there is usually parallel investigations as per police I have talked to. One starts looking inside while the other is looking out.

None of this after the fact behavior is proof that anyone killed JBR. Odd is not guilt. I have seen people react all kinds of weird ways in grief. Some run, Some look for something to be busy with, Some fall apart, some pray some yell, Some focus on anything but what is going on.

What I care about it what actually points to Him being responsible for the child's murder. That is the only question that matters.

They had their high beams on the Ramseys right away

So they were right with having their high beams on the R's right away, as the police were right to be looking inside? The R's hid behind their lawyers within, what a day or two, because the police were looking inside? That confuses me- you can't have it both ways. Either they accept that they are going to be investigated along with others and cooperate, or not cooperate.
You will not even think that the R's could have anything to do with it. Nothing that they have done doesn't seem the bit odd to you. Yet you offer no attempt to show anything that points to an intruder. Everything that a RDI posts, you dismiss. I know people grieve and deal with things differently, but wanting to fly out of town an hour or so after your daughter is murdered for a business meeting, not giving an interview the next day, and all the I don't know's.....I'll keep to my opinion that it puts flags up. If you read the transcripts of the R's statements to police, there are a lot of "I think's" in them.
And again, I cannot think of anyone else who was allowed to know the questions from police beforehand, have a say in where the interview was going to take place, and not have phone records and medical records subpoenaed.
:banghead:

 

[DeeDee249]

The "business meeting" was a lot of crap, too. The family was planning TWO trips together- one to Charlevoix to meet up with JR's older kids and a Disney cruise right after to celebrate Patsy's 40th Birthday. No "business trip" was in the plans until AFTER JB's death and "discovery". What father could be present at ANY kind of business meeting right after finding his dead little girl in the basement?

There was no business meeting.

 

[Chelly]

So they were right with having their high beams on the R's right away, as the police were right to be looking inside? The R's hid behind their lawyers within, what a day or two, because the police were looking inside? That confuses me- you can't have it both ways. Either they accept that they are going to be investigated along with others and cooperate, or not cooperate.
You will not even think that the R's could have anything to do with it. Nothing that they have done doesn't seem the bit odd to you. Yet you offer no attempt to show anything that points to an intruder. Everything that a RDI posts, you dismiss. I know people grieve and deal with things differently, but wanting to fly out of town an hour or so after your daughter is murdered for a business meeting, not giving an interview the next day, and all the I don't know's.....I'll keep to my opinion that it puts flags up. If you read the transcripts of the R's statements to police, there are a lot of "I think's" in them.
And again, I cannot think of anyone else who was allowed to know the questions from police beforehand, have a say in where the interview was going to take place, and not have phone records and medical records subpoenaed.
:banghead:

BBM What kind of parents prepare to blow Dodge just hours after their daughter is was murdered? What kind of parents do that? Guilty ones.

 

[Nom de plume]

Let's say my child was murdered. Someone tells me that LE is looking at me for the crime and I'd better lawyer up right away. I do just that. I refuse to be interviewed for months, demand questions ahead of time, demand to meet on neutral ground, etc.

Now which statement fits me best?
A. I know they think I did it, but wanting justice for my child so badly, I'm not concerned for myself.
or
B. I'm making sure I keep LE as far away from me as I can. After all, staying out of jail is my main priority! It's my RIGHT not to talk to them!



Scarlett I don't think you realize you're admitting they were more concerned for themselves than they were with finding their daughter's killer. Of course, why worry about a killer on the loose when you know there isn't one? :wink:

 

[midwest mama]

Actually when a child is killed there is usually parallel investigations as per police I have talked to. One starts looking inside while the other is looking out.

None of this after the fact behavior is proof that anyone killed JBR. Odd is not guilt. I have seen people react all kinds of weird ways in grief. Some run, Some look for something to be busy with, Some fall apart, some pray some yell, Some focus on anything but what is going on.

What I care about it what actually points to Him being responsible for the child's murder. That is the only question that matters.

Capital H on Him? I've only seen that used to reference the Lord God that way. And you end with emphasis on "what I care about is what actually points to .....That is the only question that matters.

Sounds to me like you've got some grave concerns about JR particularly and have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt just to satisfy yourself the man did not really kill his daughter. No one on this forum can provide that type of convincing. IMO, the only place you might see enough evidence one way or the other regarding reasonable doubt would be a courtroom.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Capital H on Him? I've only seen that used to reference the Lord God that way. And you end with emphasis on "what I care about is what actually points to .....That is the only question that matters.

Sounds to me like you've got some grave concerns about JR particularly and have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt just to satisfy yourself the man did not really kill his daughter. No one on this forum can provide that type of convincing. IMO, the only place you might see enough evidence one way or the other regarding reasonable doubt would be a courtroom.

It was meant to be emphasis on HIM.. Maybe you would have liked Italics better.. I don't have any concerns about JR. At this point all I see is a grieving father who lost his dd in the most horrific way. There is no proof that he did anything to JonBenet. No proof of anything whatsoever. There is a little girl that was most likely molested but it does not mean it was anyone in her immediate family.

The problem is that it is spoken as fact in this forum that Jr molested JBR and that is simply not a fact just more opinion.


I see here is a lot of strings of things that have been woven into an accepted blanket of blame and fact when all it is really is a cloak of opinions.

You are correct that a courtroom is the best place to see the proof that the state would bring, however the fact that they have not brought it to a courtroom, says IMO that there is no case there. They do not have any proof of anything or it would have indeed seen the courtroom by now.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Let's say my child was murdered. Someone tells me that LE is looking at me for the crime and I'd better lawyer up right away. I do just that. I refuse to be interviewed for months, demand questions ahead of time, demand to meet on neutral ground, etc.

Now which statement fits me best?
A. I know they think I did it, but wanting justice for my child so badly, I'm not concerned for myself.
or
B. I'm making sure I keep LE as far away from me as I can. After all, staying out of jail is my main priority! It's my RIGHT not to talk to them!



Scarlett I don't think you realize you're admitting they were more concerned for themselves than they were with finding their daughter's killer. Of course, why worry about a killer on the loose when you know there isn't one? :wink:

C. You know that anything in you say in this country will be recorded and used at a later time against you. You know that the police are showing signs of targeting you and you know that you can not do this on your own.
I think we have seen this recently with people going in without counsel and left open to charges.

It is more important that we protect the rights of people and that their rights are not used against them. It should not be a sign of guilt to use all the law provides as protection for the individual.