IL - Adam Toledo, 13, shot and killed by Chicago police officer, 29 Mar 2021

[kittythehare]

What happens when the criminals know that the cops aren’t chasing and there’s no penalty for fleeing? Get ready for even more shoplifting, thefts, muggings and robberies. Not only that, but in Chicago almost all of them will be armed and ready. Bodies are going to stack up, because they know cops can't engage in a foot pursuit. jmo

Foot chases down alleyways are dangerous for both lE and those they chase, in this case a 13 year old with learning difficulties, suspected of having a gun.
The thing is, he could have gone to the place he had thrown that gun which would have provided him with cover to take a shot at the officer.
He did not.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Foot chases down alleyways are dangerous for both lE and those they chase, in this case a 13 year old with learning difficulties, suspected of having a gun.
The thing is, he could have gone to the place he had thrown that gun which would have provided him with cover to take a shot at the officer.
He did not.

People running around shooting guns illegally is more dangerous.

They aren’t playing in Chicago. It’s the real deal there.

jmo

 

[kittythehare]

People running around shooting guns illegally is more dangerous.

They aren’t playing in Chicago. It’s the real deal there.

jmo

It is. No argument there.
But, in hindsight it was a crazy thing for him to do, he put himself in extreme danger.
I think it was a genuine mistake, he really showed remorse, he did all he could to help his victim.
But, we must await the investigation report.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

It is. No argument there.
But, in hindsight it was a crazy thing for him to do, he put himself in extreme danger.
I think it was a genuine mistake, he really showed remorse, he did all he could to help his victim.
But, we must await the investigation report.

If I was shot at or saw someone shoot in a neighborhood I would expect LE to chase the suspect. Innocent bystanders and even people who are in their homes and vehicles are shot and killed by stray bullets everyday. LE puts themselves in the line of fire everyday. It’s their job to protect and serve and that includes getting criminals off the streets.

I don’t think the officer was in the wrong this time, but we’ll see what the report says.

 

[kittythehare]

If I was shot at or saw someone shoot in a neighborhood I would expect LE to chase the suspect. Innocent bystanders and even people who are in their homes and vehicles are shot and killed by stray bullets everyday. LE puts themselves in the line of fire everyday. It’s their job to protect and serve and that includes getting criminals off the streets.

I don’t think the officer was in the wrong this time, but we’ll see what the report says.

I think I'd be happier seeing them more overhead vehicles, choppers and the like.
They can chase in squad cars, that is what they're designed for, speed and efficiency, they have motorbike brigades, they can use them more..
if they do not they're on potential suicide missions constantly.
They're saving or serving nobody if dead.
Especially Chicago.

There could have been 50 gang members hiding inside that wall where the gun was thrown for all he knew, child used as a decoy.
There's risks you are paid to take and there are risks that no money could pay for.

 

[fred&edna]

How much longer will it be before it comes a suicide mission for an officer to appear on a street... or maybe that's already happened?

Jmo

Ack! I've obviously had a strong cup of cynical this morning. At least I'm calling myself out!

 

[kittythehare]

How much longer will it be before it comes a suicide mission for an officer to appear on a street... or maybe that's already happened?

Jmo

Ack! I've obviously had a strong cup of cynical this morning. At least I'm calling myself out!

It must be TERRIFYING.
I do not know how they do it.

 

[PommyMommy]

APR 21, 2021
Lightfoot clashes with Hispanic alderman during resolution honoring Adam Toledo - Chicago Sun-Times (suntimes.com)
[...]

Wednesday’s brief dust-up happened after the mayor agreed to suspend the rules and allow Little Village Ald. Mike Rodriguez (22nd) to debate a resolution that was only being introduced, not voted on.

Debate is supposed to be limited to matters the Council is voting on, but Lightfoot allowed it because of the sensitivity of the matter.

[...]

Adam Toledo’s death puts focus on split-second police decisions | WGN-TV (wgntv.com)
[...]

The U.S. Supreme Court has said an officer’s fear for their life in the heat of the moment matters, even if in hindsight it turns out they weren’t in danger. Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in a 1989 ruling that shaped the legal landscape that the “calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.”

It takes the brain about three-fourths of a second to react to a perceived threat, said Chris Burbank, a former police chief in Salt Lake City who is now with the Center for Policing Equity. Most police can then draw a gun and fire two accurate rounds in 1.5 seconds, so the pivotal portion of a confrontation can be over in less than three seconds.

[...]

The often-used “show me your hands!” command can unintentionally accelerate a confrontation. The motions of a person trying to obey can appear at first like the moves someone makes to start an attack, said Von Kliem, a former police officer and director of consulting division for the Force Science Institute. Some in law enforcement-training circles have had concerns about how the phrase affects a situation since the mid-1990s, though it’s still often used without causing serious problems.

[...]

 

[PommyMommy]

APR 21, 2021
NBC 5 Investigates: CPD Report Says Toledo Was Running With an Empty Gun – NBC Chicago
A Chicago police inventory of items recovered from the scene where 13-year-old Adam Toledo was shot by police indicates the weapon Toledo was holding was empty.

[...]

Stillman's discovery of the weapon near Toledo's body was documented on body camera video, which was released by the Civilian Office of Police Accountability last week. When he was pursuing Toledo, the officer would have had no way of knowing that the gun the youth was carrying was empty.

[...]

The report only compounds the tragedy, adding the fact that the weapon Toledo apparently failed to drop during the pursuit had no bullets.

[...]

 

[oceanblueeyes]

APR 21, 2021
NBC 5 Investigates: CPD Report Says Toledo Was Running With an Empty Gun – NBC Chicago
A Chicago police inventory of items recovered from the scene where 13-year-old Adam Toledo was shot by police indicates the weapon Toledo was holding was empty.

[...]

Stillman's discovery of the weapon near Toledo's body was documented on body camera video, which was released by the Civilian Office of Police Accountability last week. When he was pursuing Toledo, the officer would have had no way of knowing that the gun the youth was carrying was empty.

[...]

The report only compounds the tragedy, adding the fact that the weapon Toledo apparently failed to drop during the pursuit had no bullets.

[...]

Who gave him the gun?

I hate it happened, but it certainly is not the fault of the officer who had no idea it wasn't loaded.

An officer can't first ask an armed suspect 'will you please show me if your firearm is loaded or not.'

Jmho

 

[tlcya]

Makes me even angrier at Ruben Roman, the man who emptied the bullets by firing at an occupied vehicle, drawing LE to the scene and handing the now empty gun off to a minor child to run and dump. I still feel this was a 100% justified shooting on the part of the LEO.

My anger and outrage remains reserved for the adults around this child who contributed to him being on the street with a grown man and a gun at 2am in the morning. I don't foresee my opinion on that changing no matter how hard groups with agendas may try to muddy this water. JMO

 

[PommyMommy]

Who gave him the gun?

I hate it happened, but it certainly is not the fault of the officer who had no idea it wasn't loaded.

An officer can't first ask an armed suspect 'will you please show me if your firearm is loaded or not.'

Jmho

I completely agree with you, Ocean. Although I am following here, I have refrained from commenting much because I am somewhat biased. My father was a police chief. MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

How much longer will it be before it comes a suicide mission for an officer to appear on a street... or maybe that's already happened?

Jmo

Ack! I've obviously had a strong cup of cynical this morning. At least I'm calling myself out!

Don't worry. I'm drinking the same kind of coffee. I've been drinking for awhile now. It taste quite bitter though.

Yes, police officers have been murdered this year because of being ambushed. Others have been murdered in the line of duty as well.

Officer Talley in the Colorado mass shooting was murdered in the line of duty. He is hailed as a hero for confronting the mass shooter saving more lives from being taken.

He is only one among many who have made their last call while on duty to protect, and serve.

Total LEs of all agencies in our nation are around 900k now, but that number is shrinking fast due to the toxic climate they are under. It will continued to shrink in number imo.

What it shows is the very thin blue line is getting thinner, and thinner.at a time they are badly needed with violent crimes in many cities skyrocketing. I read one PD has already lost 200.

As you can see very few do what they do or wouid do, imo, for all of us with a total population of more than 330 million people. Just think about that for a minute.. Less than a million LE including federal agencies is what stands to protect all of us against all of the criminals who commit crimes every year. Yes it is the thin blue line who is protecting all law abiders from the ones who aren't.

It's actually frightening to know those who protect us all are leaving or decided now would be a good time to retire when we need them more than ever now.

What is just as worrisome is I believe some will go on strike leaving law abiding citizens even more vulnerable, and unprotected.

I can only hope they've seen the national polls showing the majority not only wants policing in their community, but want even more police in their neighborhood to help prevent being victims of more crimes who already live in high crime neighborhoods.

Imo, they have to tune out everything else which I know is really very hard to do. Can they really continue to ignore it all? I highly doubt it, but we will see.

Jmhoo

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I think I'd be happier seeing them more overhead vehicles, choppers and the like.
They can chase in squad cars, that is what they're designed for, speed and efficiency, they have motorbike brigades, they can use them more..
if they do not they're on potential suicide missions constantly.
They're saving or serving nobody if dead.
Especially Chicago.

There could have been 50 gang members hiding inside that wall where the gun was thrown for all he knew, child used as a decoy.
There's risks you are paid to take and there are risks that no money could pay for.

They can car chase, but officers need permission from a supervisor before they are allowed to chase in a car.

Again no easy answers or solutions


Chicago police may soon need supervisor's OK to chase suspects on foot: mayor

City Alderman Brian Hopkins told FOX 32 that city police already need a superior’s permission to launch a vehicle chase for a suspect. A new policy on foot chases would simply make the same policy apply to all chases.

Hopkins acknowledged the most obvious criticism that such a policy would likely attract: that a suspect on foot could be long gone in the time it would take an officer to get the required approval.

The alderman added that police are seeing more vehicles flee from officers because suspects know about the permission policy.

 

[kittythehare]

Don't worry. I'm drinking the same kind of coffee. I've been drinking for awhile now. It taste quite bitter though.

Yes, police officers have been murdered this year because of being ambushed. Others have been murdered in the line of duty as well.

Officer Talley in the Colorado mass shooting was murdered in the line of duty. He is hailed as a hero for confronting the mass shooter saving more lives from being taken.

He is only one among many who have made their last call while on duty to protect, and serve.

Total LEs of all agencies in our nation are around 900k now, but that number is shrinking fast due to the toxic climate they are under. It will continued to shrink in number imo.

What it shows is the very thin blue line is getting thinner, and thinner.at a time they are badly needed with violent crimes in many cities skyrocketing. I read one PD has already lost 200.

As you can see very few do what they do or wouid do, imo, for all of us with a total population of more than 330 million people. Just think about that for a minute.. Less than a million LE including federal agencies is what stands to protect all of us against all of the criminals who commit crimes every year. Yes it is the thin blue line who is protecting all law abiders from the ones who aren't.

It's actually frightening to know those who protect us all are leaving or decided now would be a good time to retire when we need them more than ever now.

What is just as worrisome is I believe some will go on strike leaving law abiding citizens even more vulnerable, and unprotected.

I can only hope they've seen the national polls showing the majority not only wants policing in their community, but want even more police in their neighborhood to help prevent being victims of more crimes who already live in high crime neighborhoods.

Imo, they have to tune out everything else which I know is really very hard to do. Can they really continue to ignore it all? I highly doubt it, but we will see.

Jmhoo

Great points, very well made.
I was trying to figure out what circumstances would have needed to exist in order for him to enter that alleyway safely. And I realised the only way he could have done it safely would be if another team of LE were already in the alley or approaching from the other side of the alleyway to give each other cover..
Your post made e realise that those circumstances probably did not and can not exist because of the limitations you have outlined.
Thank you for bringing that clarity.
It's worse than I thought. And it needs to be remedied.

 

[kittythehare]

They can car chase, but officers need permission from a supervisor before they are allowed to chase in a car.

Again no easy answers or solutions


Chicago police may soon need supervisor's OK to chase suspects on foot: mayor

City Alderman Brian Hopkins told FOX 32 that city police already need a superior’s permission to launch a vehicle chase for a suspect. A new policy on foot chases would simply make the same policy apply to all chases.

Hopkins acknowledged the most obvious criticism that such a policy would likely attract: that a suspect on foot could be long gone in the time it would take an officer to get the required approval.

The alderman added that police are seeing more vehicles flee from officers because suspects know about the permission policy.

Wow!
I never imagined that would be the case.
That's an impossible situation and that is the situation that is forcing them to run into alleys without cover!
Thanks Tippy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

People running around shooting guns illegally is more dangerous.

They aren’t playing in Chicago. It’s the real deal there.

jmo

I truly have never understood it either. I guess I never will. It seems to really be an epidemic to me, and very important issue for everyone.

They are very aware thousands of AAs are shot, and killed every year by AAs,, with thousands more shot, but lived with some left with life long injuries that leaves them debilitated.

From what I have read most are gang related. By the time the police can show up they are either dead, or wounded.

I've often wondered if we could stop or even curtail gang violence every where how low would our overall homicide rate be nationwide.and other related violent crimes related to gangs every where.

I know gangs have infilrated rural areas, medium size towns,and small towns close to where we live. The county next to ours has so much gang violence now the DA there has enhancements for any suspect tied to a gang, and it has a population of ,200k in that county.

So it seems to be spreading. I guess we wouid need to see the DOJ data to see how many violent crimes in total who are gang related nationwide.

Jmho

 

[shotgun09]

I live fairly close to Chicago. Too close, if you really want to know. The gangs in the area have overcome the police. It's obvious, look at the crime/murder/shootings rate. The area where AT was killed had 'shot cams' up nearby because it is so common. A few days after AT's death, comes another 3 dead from shootings count, including a 7 year old girl who was in the back seat of her daddy's car in the drive through at McDonalds! Baby girl was shot 4 times waiting to get a Happy Meal! The police picked up 50 shell casings from that scene. THIS is what the citizens in the city of Chicago live with. And, this also is what the police deal with. Now, the mayor is proposing a " do not chase" order? It is literally utter chaos in the city, IMO.

Chicago police: 7-year-old killed in shooting outside McDonald's

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“My name is on the door. ... I don’t believe in pushing blame or the buck,” State’s Attorney Kim Foxx told the Sun-Times. “The public was relying on information that our office presented to the court and the media relied upon that wasn’t fully accurate. I own that.”
Foxx says she should have known what prosecutor would say in court about police shooting of Adam Toledo

 

[kittythehare]

I live fairly close to Chicago. Too close, if you really want to know. The gangs in the area have overcome the police. It's obvious, look at the crime/murder/shootings rate. The area where AT was killed had 'shot cams' up nearby because it is so common. A few days after AT's death, comes another 3 dead from shootings count, including a 7 year old girl who was in the back seat of her daddy's car in the drive through at McDonalds! Baby girl was shot 4 times waiting to get a Happy Meal! The police picked up 50 shell casings from that scene. THIS is what the citizens in the city of Chicago live with. And, this also is what the police deal with. Now, the mayor is proposing a " do not chase" order? It is literally utter chaos in the city, IMO.

Chicago police: 7-year-old killed in shooting outside McDonald's

What needs to happen in order to fix it , Shotgun?
I could guess massive budgetary resources and better incentives for new recruits and better protection for LE? But what specifically would it take for the Chicago area?